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COMPARING CREATIONIST FLOOD MODELS

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60 TJ 17(3) 2003
Forum
__Comparing Flood models
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j17_3/j17_3_60-65.pdf
Robert W. Lawrence
_A recent issue of this journal contained an important exchange on the significance of dinosaur footprints within strata classified as Mesozoic.
_Garner et al.,1 in commenting on a paper by Woodmorappe,2 discuss the obvious difficulties of explaining these footprints if they were deposited during the Flood. _Woodmorappe and Oard,3 in their reply, conclude that the alternative of these forming after the Flood should be considered as dead and buried, once and for all.
_One would expect an irrefutable case in order to dismiss an alternative interpretation,
--so it is worthwhile examining the case made by Woodmorappe and Oard to see if the alternative can indeed be dismissed as not viable.
_In the reply of Woodmorappe and Oard, they argue that Garner et al. have followed the error of Cuvier
and classify them as holding a neo-Cuvierist position.
_Woodmorappe and Oard claim that the neo-Cuvierist position adopts an illusionary geologic column and ignores the complexity of the Flood,
in assuming that dinosaurs would not have survived the first day of the Flood.
_These are both debatable issues and do not provide sufficient basis for rejecting an alternative view.
_We should consider these arguments before evaluating their conclusions.
_First, it needs to be stated that Woodmorappe and Oard have not shown, either in their reply or in any previous work,
that a logical conclusion of interpreting dinosaur footprints as post-Flood is to exclude evidence for the biblical Flood completely.
_There are alternative interpretations for recognizing Flood deposits, but they are not logical consequences of how dinosaur footprints are interpreted.
_To begin, we should consider the geologic column.
_A common process during geologic mapping is to produce a representative column with both rock-types and fossils.
_Such columns have a degree of simplification and they tend to include layers with restricted distribution.
_Similarly, the geologic column is the nomenclature for an idealized composite representation of the observed fossil succession.
_Nomenclature is not a basis for correlation.
_Any time significance needs to be interpreted on a sound theoretical basis.
_The column is nothing more than a nomenclature for classifying the relative stratigraphic position of fossil assemblages.
_It provides a basis for predicting what kinds of fossils may occur above or below a certain fossiliferous layer and what kinds of fossils will not be found.
_Even if aspects of the geologic column are artefacts of a flawed methodology, there is an obvious pattern observed on every continent.
_Throughout the world there are strata with extinct marine fossils, such as trilobites and graptolites,
overlain by strata with both marine and terrestrial fossils, including plant remains.
_Within the latter there is also a pattern of extinct terrestrial vertebrates and ammonites,
followed by mammals and other vertebrates that are increasingly similar to modern forms and ecosystems.
_One does not need to consider the column to be ‘valid’ in order to describe the obvious pattern.
_Woodmorappe and Oard consider that neo-Cuvierists adopt a form of speeded-up uniformitarianism.
_This may be so, but it does not logically follow that this approach is flawed.
_While it is the case that uniformitarian assumptions limit interpretation to exclude a biblical timescale;
an assumption that all strata classified as Mesozoic and Tertiary must be interpreted as Flood deposits is equally limiting.
_Each interpretation needs to be assessed on its merits.
_It is not appropriate to assume that secular scholars are always wrong.
_The second issue discussed by Woodmorappe and Oard is the complexity of the Flood.
_Two possible sources of information about the Flood are the Bible and strata deposited in the Flood.
_The Bible says that Noah’s Ark was floated during the increasing waters that resulted from 40 days and nights of rain
and the breaking up of the fountains of the deep.
_The waters prevailed for five months (150 days) until the Ark was grounded and no land was seen from the Ark for more than a further two months,
while the water level continued to decrease.
_The requirement of areas of emergence of land during the Flood to explain dinosaur footprints
is not definitely excluded in the biblical testimony but it is certainly not evident or expected.
_The other source of information is geological observation.
_Assuming that all of the so-called Phanerozoic strata were deposited before the end of the first 150 days of the Flood,
a thickness of 15 km of sediments gives an average of 100 m of sedimentation per day.4
_Enormous erosion rates adjacent to the early Flood geosynclines would have been involved.
_Indeed, all air-breathing and land-dwelling animals would have been destroyed in a short period of such activity.
_Thus, the Bible and the geology have the same testimony.
_Nothing could have survived the deposition, deformation and exhumation of the geosynclines,
which are hundreds of kilometres wide and comprise a significant proportion of the continental crust.
_Oard5 admits that dinosaur fossils overlie these geosynclines.
_Thus, the opinion that this is an insurmountable problem for those who attribute dinosaur fossils to the Flood is well justified.
_In their conclusion, Woodmorappe and Oard imply that there is inconsistency in
having dinosaur fossils restricted to the earlier post-Flood deposits before the deposition of mammal fossils.
_Robinson6 has already explained this within a colonization model; reptiles and birds multiplied more rapidly after the Flood than mammals.
_However, this succession of mammals following dinosaurs is more of a problem for the model of Woodmorappe and Oard.
_The mammals would have had to survive through all of the time of geosyncline formation and the deposition of dinosaur footprints
and then to continue being buried until the last moments of the Flood7 in a distribution that matches modern patterns.
_Small aquatic creatures, with fossils in strata classified as Tertiary, such as the platypus in the Lake Eyre Basin of central Australia,
and extinct beavers buried within their burrows in Nebraska,8 would have been some of the first to be overcome
with the raging torrents of the Flood, not the last.
_The so-called fatal problem for neo-Cuvierists, according to Woodmorappe and Oard, is the large volumes of post-Flood sediment.
_If strata classified as Mesozoic and Tertiary were deposited after the Flood, there could have been approximately 5 km of sediments deposited in about 200 years.
_This represents an overall average of 25 m per year.
_This is conceivable during a period of high rainfall preceding duricrust formation.
_This is much less than the deposition rate of 100 m per day proposed by Woodmorappe and Oard for the Flood.
_Holt9,10 has suggested that it would be too hazardous to live with such conditions.
_However, the rate throughout much of the post-Flood period could have been much less,
as there is likely to have been a period of rapid erosion of unconsolidated Flood deposits early in this period.
_There could also have been single local catastrophic events.
_A formation of 200 m of sandstone could have been deposited in a few days.
_This is a major issue, but there is potential for developing an understanding within this paradigm.
_Woodmorappe and Oard have not presented an irrefutable case for rejecting any post-Flood dinosaur tracks and egg-laying.
_They might do well to explain how they conceive of dinosaurs surviving the preceding geosynclinal events
and how fossils of mammals and plants with increasing modern affinities came to be preserved in overlying and younger layers later, during the Flood.
_References
1. Garner, P.A., Garton, M., Johnson, R.H., Robinson S.J. and Tyler D.J., Dinosaur footprints, fish traces and the Flood, TJ 17(1):54–57, 2003.
2. Woodmorappe, J., Dinosaur footprints, fish traces and the Flood, TJ 16(2):10–12, 2002.
3. Woodmorappe, J. and Oard, M., Reply to Garner et al., Dinosaur footprints, fish traces and the Flood, TJ 17(1):57–59, 2003.
4. While 15 km may be an overestimate in some cases, the period of 150 days is also likely to be an overestimate. Thus, this estimated depositional rate is of the correct order of magnitude.
5. Oard, M.J., Watery catastrophe deduced from huge Ceratopsian dinosaur graveyard, TJ 16(2):3–4, 2002.
6. Robinson, S.J., Can Flood geology explain the fossil record? TJ 10(1):32–69, 1996.
7. Johnston, R.H., The Flood/post-Flood Boundary, TJ 11(2):162–165, 1997.
8. Oard, M.J., Dinosaurs in the Flood: A Response, TJ 12(1):69–86, 1998; see page 81.
9. Holt, R.D., Evidence for a Late Cainozoic Flood/post-Flood boundary, TJ 10(1):128–167, 1996.
10. Holt, R.D., The Flood/post-Flood boundary, TJ 11(3):308–314, 1997.
__Michael J. Oard replies:
Although creationist geologists are making good progress on a number of fronts, the issue of dinosaur eggs and tracks continues to cause consternation.1–4
Much of the problem presupposes that we know enough about the Flood and pre-Flood world to make statements that certain events cannot happen.
I also see an impatience to come up with answers to the many geological questions related to the Flood.
There are still many unknowns in geology and paleontology.
It is better to gather geological data first and then, hopefully, a pattern will emerge,
or at least we can prepare the way for the next generation of creation geologists to provide answers for tough questions.
I also see too much reliance on uniformitarian interpretations without checking into them thoroughly.5
Uniformitarian interpretations derive from a radically different worldview that taints Earth history.
Some uniformitarian interpretation may be correct while others are likely to be incorrect;
we need to spend more time checking into both the interpretations and the raw data.
(Sometimes, even the raw data is biased in geology and paleontology because uniformitarian geologists do not always report all observations,
and they may not even see evidence contrary to their presuppositions.)
__The danger of diminishing the Flood
Robert Lawrence brings up many points related to the issue of dinosaur tracks and eggs, which are contentious.
The first point is: How does placing the late Paleozoic through to the Cenozoic in the post-Flood period relate to the Flood?
Lawrence contends that Woodmorappe and I have not demonstrated that a mid to late Paleozoic Flood/post-Flood boundary does away with the Flood completely.
We have never said that such a position did away with the Flood, but that such a boundary diminishes the significance of the Flood,
since a large proportion of sedimentary rocks are left to vague post-Flood catastrophic mechanisms.
This opens up the possibility of further relegating the Flood to a lower position in the geological column,
if advocates of this position discover some feature lower in the column that they deem takes too much time.
British creationists will be aware that Steven Robinson has recently relegated the Flood/post-Flood boundary from the late Paleozoic
to somewhere in the Precambrian, based on a strict reading of the geological column, a disputable exegesis of some parts of Genesis, and Phanerozoic events
that supposedly take too much time:
‘Such features falsify all attempts to identify the Flood with any part of the Phanerozoic — the fossil record after the Precambrian.’6
This deduction presupposed a great deal of knowledge of the Flood. To accommodate all this postFlood catastrophism, whatever it is,
he relegates the date of creation to about 19,000 years ago.7
And, apart from the dubious success of accommodating the apparent postFlood catastrophism,
the serious entertainment of such a date for creation bloats the biblical chronologies to an extreme extent.
Such a diminished significance for the Flood can lead to total rejection.
This happened in the time of Baron Cuvier. William Buckland, who gave up on the Flood when the ‘diluvium’ turned out to be glacial,
is the most famous example of one who rejected the Flood altogether.
Why not instead, examine the raw data related to these geological problems and then see if there are reasonable solutions within the Flood,
which is supported by the big picture of geology and paleontology?
In examining this raw data, one cannot rely just on the uniformitarian literature;
we must also go out into the field and examine the rocks and fossils for ourselves.
I have repeatedly found reasonable solutions within the standard Flood model by this approach.

Admin:
__Comparing Flood models (CONTINUED from above: http://funday.createaforum.com/1-10/1-145/msg304/#msg304 )

[SHEET STRATA]
_The big picture includes: the sheet nature of strata sometimes spread over a huge lateral extent.
_When you compare the type of erosion, transportation and deposition of sediments today with what we see in the sedimentary rocks, there is a huge difference. _Sedimentary rocks of all ages are predominantly sheets, unlike today when sediments are commonly unlithified and two-dimensional.
_This includes the huge vertical and spatial extent of the rocks labelled as Precambrian, Paleozoic and Mesozoic.
[EVEN CENOZOIC]
_Even the Cenozoic forms large sheets out in the plains of eastern Montana, the Dakotas, and adjacent areas.
_The Cenozoic valley and basin fills in the Rocky Mountains are generally sheet-like over hundreds of square kilometres.
_In other words, the deposition was unlike today’s and fits in with the energy and depositional pattern expected in a Flood
--that is more violent at the beginning and wanes with time,
--as ‘The mountains rose; the valleys sank down’ (Psalm 104:8a) to drain the floodwaters.
[FOSSILS]
_The sedimentary rocks also contain billions of fossils.
_Considering that fossilization is a very exceptional process in the modern world, all these fossils should point to the Flood.
_The stratification and fossils, plus much more information, are why we believe the geological evidence strongly indicates a late Cenozoic Flood/post-Flood boundary.
[DINOSAUR TRACKS & EGGS]
_Such a boundary would automatically place the dinosaur tracks and eggs within the Flood,
--and the fact that the tracks and eggs were made by living animals further constrains the time as the early Flood.
_Those who advocate post-Flood catastrophism need to come up with viable mechanisms to account for
--the sheet nature and sediments with billions of fossils and the other details of the rock record.
__How does the geological column relate?
_Lawrence next brings up how the geological column relates to the Flood.
_I would agree that there is a pattern, as Lawrence states, but the exact pattern has not been determined yet.
_Evolutionists are always finding fossil surprises, such as ‘living fossils’,
--or earlier than previously identified occurences of fossils in their geological timescale,8 which require manipulation of the data.
[FOSSIL PATTERN EXPLANATIONS]
_Whatever the exact fossil pattern, there are at least two viable hypotheses to explain the order within the Flood:
--ecological zonation and Woodmorappe’s TAB concept.
_There are likely other mechanisms that no-one has yet considered.
_Those who relegate the Flood/post-Flood boundary to the middle or late Paleozoic
--seem to take the geological column as an absolute sequence of the Flood and post-Flood period.
_I believe we need a thorough evaluation of the geological column.
_There are many aspects to the geological column that must be substantiated, and there seems to be
--much flawed logic and procedures in the way uniformitarian scientists developed the column and continue to uphold it as a global sequence.5
_Radiometric dates are simply fit to the column, so they are of no help.
_In my geological travels, mostly in the northwest of the USA, I see evidence for a general order of the fossils in places, and exceptions in other places.
_For instance, the mountains of Montana are commonly Precambrian or Paleozoic;
--while the valley and basin fills, which came later, are commonly late Mesozoic and Cenozoic.
_This represents a general order to the fossils that is similar to the uniformitarian order.
_On the plains, the localities of dinosaurs and mammals are widely scattered,
--and so it is difficult to know whether the difference in fossils is really vertical or horizontal or both.
[DINOSAURS & MAMMALS TOGETHER]
_In one location in northeast Montana there are Paleocene dinosaurs mixed with ungulates.9
_Of course, this and other locations of Paleocene dinosaurs are hotly disputed by evolutionists,
--indicating the circular reasoning that is part of the fossil order making up the geological column.
_As stated by Woodmorappe and Oard,2 those who advocate a Flood/post-Flood boundary in the mid to late Paleozoic,
--must explain the supposed order in the geological column after the Flood.
_Lawrence apparently believes Robinson10 has solved the problem by advocating differential spreading or colonization,
--in other words the reptiles and birds multiplied faster than the mammals.
[EXPLAIN FOSSIL ORDER IN DETAIL]
_But, the order must be explained in detail, including the order of microorganisms and plants,
--since those who advocate a Paleozoic Flood/post-Flood boundary also believe in an absolute geological column.
_Besides, would reptiles spread faster than rats and rabbits?
_And why would dinosaurs want to migrate that fast when they have lots of mammal meals available?
[EXPLAIN MARINE FOSSILS]
_And this does not even touch marine fossils.
_For instance, how are Cretaceous ammonites supposed to avoid admixture with Tertiary marine fauna during some vague post-Flood migration?
_Surely, the post-Flood scenario should result in a generally random order of the fossils,
--since postulated post-Flood catastrophism should bury all organisms in a local or regional area.
_Lawrence states that the succession of mammals following dinosaurs is more of a problem for Woodmorappe and myself.
_I fail to see this, since there are mechanisms during the Flood that can cause fossil order,
--but no workable mechanism, as far as I know, in the model of post-Flood catastrophism.
[POSTPONE]
_The survival of mammals, as well as dinosaurs, during the initial onslaught of the Flood will be addressed later.
[ANIMAL BURIAL PATTERN]
_Lawrence goes on to state in that same paragraph that the mammals would have to be buried in the last moments of the Flood.
_This is assuming a linear sequence of the geological column compressed into the Flood.
_Woodmorappe and I question such linearity;
--we expect that the early Flood would generate more sediment and bury the land animals.
_The Bible says that all air-breathing animals that lived on land perished by Day 150.
_So all the mammals would have been dead and would generally be deposited in early Flood sediments.
[MOUNTAIN RANGES EMERGED FIRST?]
_This makes the rock record compressed, especially in areas of the continent that likely emerged first,
--such as near the continental divide in western North America.
_(One must be careful in that the above scenario does not work with micro-organisms,
--and that some of these mammals could have been floating for awhile and been deposited in the Recessional Stage of the Flood.)
_This is why I can make a case that the ‘Cenozoic’ can be early Flood, late Flood and post-Flood, depending upon the location.11
[MAMMALS BURIED BY FLOOD]
_‘Cenozoic’ sediments with mammals’ tracks and the giant beavers in corkscrew-shaped burrows in Nebraska can be explained by
--early Flood sediments that were deeply buried and subsequently exposed by late Flood erosion, as I have discussed before.12
_(I do not know enough about platypus distribution in Australia to comment.)
__Numerous difficulties with ‘post-Flood catastrophism’
_Those who believe that the Flood/post-Flood boundary is in the middle or late Paleozoic, or the K/T for that matter,
--have copious, severe problems explaining geological and paleontological features without the Flood.
_They resort to what is called post-Flood catastrophism, about which I have heard or read very little.
_I would at least like to read some speculations on the nature of these mechanisms.
[POST-FLOOD CATASTROPHISTS, EXPLAIN THESE]
_Advocates of such Flood/post-Flood boundaries need to come up with viable post-Flood catastrophic mechanisms
--for huge erosion, transportation, and sheet deposition, sometimes over tens of thousands of square kilometres.
_They need to come up with viable tectonic models plus explanations for [in]numerable other difficulties.
_Some of these difficulties, among very many, are:
_1) Where is the record of dinosaurs, mammals and other organisms from the supposed record of the Flood in the early Paleozoic and Precambrian?
_2) How is the Mesozoic and Cenozoic order of the geological column to be explained as a worldwide post-Flood sequence?
_3) How are huge early Cenozoic coal seams
--that are up to 100 km long, 40 km wide, and 61 m thick, of nearly pure coal in the Powder River Basin of southeast Montana and northeast Wyoming
--to be explained by post-Flood processes?13
_4) How are Cenozoic planation surfaces developed?
_5) How are pediments formed?
_6) How are water and wind gaps developed?
_7) How can man and beast survive the volcanic winter from all the post-Paleozoic volcanism?
_8) How would man and beast survive the devastation of large meteorite impacts?
_9) Where does the energy for erosion and transport come from after the Flood?
_10) What mechanism erodes the Rocky Mountains of western Montana and northern/central Idaho
--and lays down well-rounded quartzites from the Pacific coast to western North Dakota, sometimes at current speeds over 30 m/sec?14
_Some of these quartzites weigh up to 200 kg and are found on mountain tops,
--such as the northern Teton Mountains of northwest Wyoming,
--the Gravelly Range of southwest Montana,
--and the Wallowa Mountains of northeast Oregon.15
[A more recent Oard article says sediments were carried from east to west in N. America]
_All this occurred in the Cenozoic of geological time.
[_The extensive sheet-like deposits in the Grand Canyon, and around the world, support the standard Flood model ‘big picture’
--that these deposits are a result of the world-wide Flood of Noah.]
[& EXPLAIN THIS]
_Dinosaur tracks and eggs
--that are found near where I live
--are on top of thousands of metres of sedimentary rocks from the Flood, as all participants in the dispute recognize.
_But, there has also been at least 300 m, and possibly more than 1,000 m, of erosion of these areas to expose the dinosaur eggs, tracks and bonebeds.
_What post-Flood mechanism would lay down many hundreds of metres of Mesozoic and Cenozoic sediments over tens of thousands of square kilometres,
--erode the strata as a sheet, and end with more channellized erosion with no trace of the eroded material downstream?
_The Flood is the mechanism that is able to accomplish all this work.
_Based on the geology of the Rocky Mountains and the adjacent High Plains, and from Scripture,
--the logical place to place dinosaur tracks and eggs is early in the Flood, during the first 150 days
--when all air-breathing animals that had lived on land died (except those in the Ark of course).
_The erosion of the area down to the level of observed tracks and eggs fits in neatly with the Recessional Stage of the Flood,
--thus constraining the tracks and eggs to be from the Inundatory Stage.16
_Any postulated post-Flood mechanism that can accomplish all this geological activity would have to be on par with the Flood itself.
_I do not find the Flood explanation of the Mesozoic and Cenozoic limiting but rather straightforward,
--while I find that the post-Flood explanation of these strata and fossils adds many times more problems than it purports to solve.
_Lawrence disputes Holt’s contention that the post-Flood period would be too hazardous for man.17
_Not to mention other parts of the world, the Middle East underwent much tectonics and sedimentation during the Mesozoic and Cenozoic.17,18
_I would say there is a severe problem of survivability.
__The logic of emerged Flood sediments early in the Flood
_It is true, as Lawrence states, that areas of emerged land are not excluded in the biblical testimony,
_but to state that ‘… it is certainly not evident or expected’ is to not think of the many processes
--that can cause emerged Flood sediments early in the Flood.
_Furthermore, Lawrence and others do not seem to have thought much about the unusual features of tracks and eggs
--that make a natural environment suspicious,
--such as predominantly straight trackways,
--tracks only on bedding planes,
--and few tracks of babies or young juveniles,
--unlike today.19,20
[5 CAUSES OF FLOOD SEDIMENTS]
_I will discuss some of the mechanisms that would cause emerged Flood sediments.
_After a few thousand metres or so of sediment is rapidly deposited in a ‘geosyncline’,
--sea level would shallow greatly because the crustal trough is being filled up.
_Then there are at least five viable mechanisms that would result in fluctuating sea level that can result in emerged sediments.
_One mechanism is twice-daily tides.
_These tides can be substantial on a globally or nearly globally flooded Earth due to a lack of continental barriers and/or resonance.21,22
_The height of these tides should be quite variable spatially due to the effects of the remaining uninundated land and sea-bottom topography.
_A second mechanism is multiple tectonics, both near and far, that will cause all kinds of tsunamis and waves.
_Just this mechanism alone would cause massive sea-level oscillations.
_A third mechanism is general uplift of the area of exposed Flood sediments due to conditions in the lower crust or mantle,
--such as a heating event or change of mineral phase in the mantle.
_Fourth, meteorite bombardment in the ocean should result in huge tsunamis, which would spread out and decrease in energy with distance.
_Fifth, the dynamics of Flood currents results in sheet flows snaking over shallow land masses at high speed,
--just like the jet stream in the atmosphere.23
_These modelled currents can accelerate from rest up to about 80 m/sec, in about 40 days with the pattern of ridges and troughs moving very slowly.
_The most relevant feature, for this discussion, is that in the middle of the trough sea level can fall as much as 1,000 m, resulting in a large area
of exposed land that can remain for tens of days.
_These are not ad hoc mechanisms but reasonable deductions within a global Flood.
__Flood and post-Flood deposition
_Robert Lawrence’s estimate of the amount of sediment laid down in the first 150 days is about 100 m/day.
_He is an order of magnitude too high.
_During the Flood some areas would have received high rates of sedimentation, but, on average, the depositional rates will be about 10m/day
--based on an average continental thickness of 1,500 m.
_Although I would agree that most of the sediment was laid down during the first 150 days, especially at the beginning,
--more sediment would have been added from copious volcanic emissions during the Recessional Stage.
_So, this would put the estimate for the first 150 days somewhere around 8 m/day.
_I would also add that the sediments laid down early in the Flood ‘geosynclines’ did not necessarily erode from the edge,
--but could have come from quite a long distance.
_We just don’t know.
_The Recessional Stage would generally erode the top of the sediment column from the highest areas and redeposit the material mostly along the continental margins.
_Regardless of the average deposition rate, Lawrence concludes that
--the geological activity very early in the Flood would have been too much for the air-breathing land dwellers.
_The question seems to come up as to where the dinosaurs and mammals were located while the Paleozoic sediments were being deposited on the continents.
_All these deductions presuppose that we know the pre-Flood geography, topography and bathymetry.
_We do not know any of these geomorphological features.
_Moreover, the addition of an average of about 1,500 m of sediments on the continents and continental margins, plus great tectonics,
--has catastrophically disrupted and changed the pre-Flood world.
_So, questions like ‘Where were the dinosaurs and mammals early in the catastrophe?’ assume that
--we know not only the pre-Flood geomorphology, but also the precise events of the Flood.
_They also assume that the globe was totally flooded soon after the start.
_For all we know, much of the current ocean basins could have been pre-Flood land while the current continents were pre-Flood oceans.
_If Mount Everest can rise more than 9,000 m out of the floodwaters, portions of the pre-Flood continents
--could have sunk thousands of metres and now be covered with sea water, in spite of the current observations
--of a felsic upper continental crust, a mafic ocean crust, and general isostatic balance.
_So, the dinosaurs and mammals could have been still on these pre-Flood continents while the ‘geosynclines’ were filling up.
_A further rise in the relative level of the sea could have chased them off into the water
--in which strong Flood currents swept them up on the shores of newly exposed Flood sediments.
_Some drowned, forming bonebeds along the shore, while some lived to make tracks and lay eggs before the exposed Flood sediments were finally covered by water.
_This is just one viable scenario.
_On the other hand, the amount of sediment laid down in the post-Flood period, if the Mesozoic and Cenozoic were post-Flood,
--is far greater than that observed in depositional areas today.
_Lawrence’s average of 25 m/yr for 200 years is much too high, but nonetheless, it would still be large.
_Because of all this post-Flood activity, including deposition, Robinson is forced to postulate a post-Flood period of around 15,000 years,7
--which is really a Scriptural and archaeological stretch.

Admin:
__Acknowledgment
I thank John Woodmorappe for reading the first draft of the manuscript and suggesting improvements.
I appreciate the work of AiG for correcting my English and making it more readable.
__References
1. Garner, P.A., Garton, M., Johnston, R.H., Robinson, S.J. and Tyler, D.J., Dinosaur footprints, fish traces and the Flood. TJ 17(1):54–57, 2003.
2. Woodmorappe, J. and Oard, M.J., John Woodmorappe and Michael Oard reply, TJ 17(1):57–59, 2003.
3. Lain, E.C. and Gentet, R.E., Dinosaur eggs, nests and tracks: evidence for or against the Noachian Deluge? CRSQ 40(2):117–118, 2003.
4. Oard, M.J., Could dinosaurs make tracks and lay eggs early in the Flood? CRSQ 40(2):119–123, 2003.
5. Reed, J.K. and Froede, Jr., C.R., The uniformitarian stratigraphic column—shortcut or pitfall for creation geology? CRSQ 40(2):90–98, 2003.
6. Robinson, S.J., The then world with water having been deluged perished, Origins—The Journal of the Biblical Creation Society 29:15, 2000.
7. Robinson, S.J., Genealogy is not chronology, Origins—The Journal of the Biblical Creation Society 26:15–21, 1999.
8. Oard, M.J., Evolution pushed further into the past, TJ 10(2):171–172,1996.
9. Oard, M.J., The extinction of the dinosaurs, TJ 11(2), p. 148, 1997.
10. Robinson, S.J., Can Flood geology explain the fossil record? TJ 10(1):32–69, 1996.
11. Oard, M.J., Vertical tectonics and the drainage of floodwater: a model for the middle and late diluvian period, Part II, CRSQ 38(2):79–95, 2001. See pp. 89, 90.
12. Oard, M.J., Dinosaurs in the Flood: a response, TJ 12(1):69–86, 1998; see pp. 79–81.
13. Oard, M.J., Where is the Flood/post-Flood boundary in the rock record? TJ 10(2):258–278; see pp. 266–267.
14. Klevberg, P. and Oard, M.J., Paleohydrology of the Cypress Hills Formation and Flaxville Gravel; in: Walsh, R.E. (Ed.), Proceedings of the Fourth International Conference on Creationism, Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, pp. 361–378, 1994.
15. Oard, Ref. 13, pp. 258–278.
16. Walker, T., A Biblical geological model; in: Walsh, R.E. (Ed.), Proceedings of the Third International Conference on Creationism, Christian Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, pp. 581–592, 1994.
17. Holt, R.D., Evidence for a Late Cainozoic Flood/post-Flood boundary, TJ 10(1):128–167, 1996.
18. Woodmorappe, J., The feasible same-site reappearance of the TigrisEuphrates River system after the global Flood, CRSQ 39(2):106–116, 2002; see Figure 4, p. 110.
19. Oard, Ref. 9, pp. 144–147.
20. Oard, M.J., In the footsteps of giants, Creation 25(2):10–12, 2003.
21. Clark, M.E. and Voss, H.D., Resonance and sedimentary layering in the context of a global Flood; in: Walsh, R.E. and Brooks, C.L. (Eds.), Proceedings of the Second International Conference on Creationism, Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, pp 53–63, 1990.
22. Clark, M.E. and Voss, H.D., Toward an understanding of the tidal fluid mechanics associated with the Genesis Flood; in: Walsh, R.E. (Ed.), Proceedings of the Third International Conference on Creationism, Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, pp. 151–167, 1994.
23. Barnette, D.W. and Baumgardner, J.R., Patterns of ocean circulation over the continents during Noah’s Flood; in: Walsh, R.E. (Ed.), Proceedings of the Third International Conference on Creationism, Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, pp. 77–86, 1994.

Admin:
__CEMENT
_Flood processes into the late Cenozoic: part 2 — sedimentary rock evidence
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j30_2/j30_2_67-75.pdf
...to the extent of ____cement growth, the type of mineral doing the ____cementation, the availability of ____cementing agents, and other variables. Time is only one of the many ...
_Volcanic Ash Turns to Stone in Months
https://www.icr.org/article/volcanic-ash-turns-to-stone-in-months
...Scientists have already discovered rapidly-forming natural ____cement in other places. A company called CarbFix has been working with the ...
_Flood Explains 'Worldwide Pattern' in Ancient Rock
https://www.icr.org/article/flood-explains-worldwide-pattern-ancient
...of soft-bodied organisms in sediments" and then hardening of the sediment very soon afterward under a layer of calcium carbonate "____cement.
_Ute Pass Fault: Sand Injectites and Rapid Deformation Fit the Flood
https://www.icr.org/article/ute-pass-fault-sand-injectites-rapid
...Hematite ____cement is abundant and imparts a red or purple coloration to the injectites. Among investigators of these sand injectites there is ...
_Soft-Sediment Deformation: Recent Flood Evidence
https://www.icr.org/article/soft-sediment-deformation-recent-flood
...As illustrated in the accompanying sketch and photograph, although these layers were bent excessively, there is no evidence of broken ____cement ...
_The Rock Walls of Rockwall County
https://www.icr.org/article/rock-walls-rockwall-county
...But how long does it take for sand to harden? Not long at all, if the conditions are right, and particularly if a ____cement is present to bind the grains ...
_Is There Geological Evidence for the Young Earth?
https://www.icr.org/article/there-geological-evidence-for-young-earth
...But it only takes a few hundred years at best for sandy sediments to turn to sandstone in the presence of high overburden pressure and adequate ____cement.
_Water Activity on Mars: Landscapes and Sedimentary Strata
https://www.icr.org/article/water-activity-mars-landscapes-sedimentary-strata
...These include early pore-filling ____cement leading to primary lithification, post-concretion ____cement resulting from recrystallization and new growth, ...
_Tight Folds and Clastic Dikes as Evidence for Rapid Deposition Deformation
https://www.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/Tight-Fold-and-Clastic-Dikes-Rapid-Deposition-Deformation.pdf
...____cements, and evolutionists would predict that thick strata sequences were deformed when the strata were in a lithified, brittle, or elastic condition. Specific types.
_Rapid rock
https://creation.com/rapid-rock
...In natural rocks, many minerals can ____cement the grains together. Common ____cements include calcite, quartz, or minerals of iron. Different ____cements produce rocks with ...
_An Experiment on the Erosion Rates of Rocks
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j11_3/j11_3_335-343.pdf
...____cement mixer on eight groups of rock samples: three types of granites, a hard metasediment, limestone, ironstone, scoria and sandstone. INTRODUCTION.
_Speedy stone from sand to rock
https://creation.com/Speedy-stone-from-sand-to-rock
...The Dutch have been impressed by the capability of the bacteria to ____cement the sand samples — hard.4. A major practical application for the bio____cementation ...
_Sand to rock
https://creation.com/sand-to-rock
...environment, it generates binding calcite ____cement (calcium carbonate) ... of bacteria to convert sand into stone, explained, “Cement is currently ...
_Sedimentary Heavitree Quartzite
https://creation.com/sedimentary-heavitree-quartzite
...This formation is composed mostly of quartz sand, with white and tan grains ____cemented into very hard rock by silica ____cement. Where the Heavitree Quartzite is ...

_Fossilized dinosaur retains its shape
https://creation.com/fossilized-dinosaur-retains-its-shape
...The fossil was found encased in a siderite concretion which occurs when minerals cause sediment to harden (like ____cement) around organic ...
_Hasty Concretion Formation
https://www.icr.org/article/hasty-concretion-formation
...They are spherical carbonate formations composed of mineral ____cement. Concretions are found near and far, from Western Kazakhstan to ...
_Moeraki boulders new zealand
https://creation.com/moeraki-boulders-new-zealand
...The boulders are spectacular examples of concretions, which form in a deposit of mud or sand when minerals from the groundwater ____cement ...
_Made in His Image: Bone, An Engineering Marvel
https://www.icr.org/article/4751
...The bone's equivalent of the ____cement/aggregate part of concrete is composed of apatite. Apatite is a medium-hard mineral with properties similar ...
_Worldwide Catastrophic Evidence Is Everywhere
https://www.icr.org/worldwide-flood/
...Concretions are remarkable geological curiosities. They are spherical carbonate formations composed of mineral ____cement. Concretions are found near and far, ...
_Arches National Park: Sculptures from the Flood
https://www.icr.org/article/arches-national-park-sculptures-from-the-flood/
...And where do we see erosion carving parallel fins? Yes, natural ____cements hold some sand grains together in sandstone, but these can form fast ...
_Arches National Park
https://www.icr.org/i/pdf/af/af2102.pdf
...by a natural ____cement. This mortar is dissolved by water trickling down the surface of the rock. Sand grains are loosened, and slowly the wall ...
_Stunning New Evidence of a Higher Ancient Sea Level
https://www.icr.org/article/4542/
...Olson, whose research appears in the journal Quaternary Science Reviews, found “cobbles and marine sediments,” along with “rim ____cements.
_Rapidly Forming Oil Supports Flood Time Frame
https://www.icr.org/article/rapidly-forming-oil-supports-flood
...The Hebrew word for asphalt is chemar, which is sometimes translated as bitumen, ____cement, or slime. So here, unlike the use of the Hebrew ...
_SUBMARINE FLOW AND SLIDE DEPOSITS ...
https://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_rs/
...Debris flows were generated when clasts from underlying formations were swept up into a thick, rapidly flowing slurry of sands and carbonaceous ____cement which ...
_The Whale Fossil in Diatomite, Lompoc, California
https://www.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/The-Whale-Fossil-in-Diatomite-Lompoc-California.pdf
...with a plastic ____cement, which hardened, and covered and reinforced with bandages of plaster and burlap. The skull was never transported to the museum, but ...
_Ancient Roman concrete
https://creation.com/ancient-roman-concrete
...Modern ____cement in constant contact with the sea eventually weakens, and the steel reinforcing inside then rusts as salty water travels into cracks in the structure .
_Message in a bottle
https://creation.com/message-in-a-bottle
...But why should it be amazing that minerals precipitated from seawater could ____cement all these things together into solid rock? After all, the wreck had been on the ...
_The Cal Orcko ('Lime Hill') dinosaur trackways
https://creation.com/cal-orcko-dino-tracks
...In 1994, Bolivian workers quarrying high-grade limestone for ____cement reached a layer with too much quartz, a hard mineral, so they left it alone.1 As quarrying ...
_Rapid stalactites
https://creation.com/rapid-stalactites
...Like the Lincoln Memorial, the jenolan structures contain ____cement-mortar which is highly permeable, allowing these formations to develop rapidly. The resultant ...
_Candles turned to stone
https://creation.com/candles-turned-to-stone
...of pulverized rock hardens quickly, and experiments show that certain bacteria can ____cement sand into hard rock.2 All of this makes sense in the light of the true, ...
_Toy car rocks million-year belief
https://creation.com/toy-car-rocks-million-year-belief
...Sandstone is just grains of sand held together by ____cement — in this case by the mineral called calcium carbonate (CaCO3). When you stroll along the beach you  ...

Admin:
POST-FLOOD CATASTROPHE
_Noahs Flood the big picture
https://creation.com/noahs-flood-the-big-picture
...The Lake Missoula flood was a ____post-Flood catastrophe that demonstrates some of the effects of geological catastrophe. A number of geologists ...
_Where is the Flood/post-Flood Boundary in the Rock Record?
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j10_2/j10_2_258-278.pdf
...would be a ____post-Flood catastrophe rivalling the Genesis. Flood. In this scenario, it could easily be asserted that the waters of the Genesis Flood prevailed for tens ...
_Post-Flood boundary (Disagreements)
https://creation.com/disagreements-on-the-post-flood-boundary
...It seems most reasonable to approach the issue by analyzing the scale of any given formation, while considering ____post-flood catastrophe (such ...
_Flood models flat earthers
https://creation.com/flood-models-flat-earthers
...because it requires too much ____post-Flood catastrophe to explain the enormous volumes of sediment deposited in the Mesozoic and Cenozoic.
_'Unfossilized' Alaskan dinosaur bones?
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j19_3/j19_3_66-72.pdf
...as tracks and bonebeds, there are many indications of unusual activity that one would not expect in the uniformitarian or ____post-Flood catastrophe models.19.
_Late Cenozoic flood boundary
https://creation.com/late-cenozoic-flood-boundary
...Absent a ____post-Flood catastrophe of regional extent and great intensity, it is difficult to explain the uplift, erosion, transport, deposition, and late ...
_The Black Sea flood
https://creation.com/the-black-sea-flood
...The evidence is consistent with a local ____post-Flood catastrophe around 1650 BC at the close of the Ice Age. Lately it seems the scientific world has developed a ...
_Coal: memorial to the Flood
https://creation.com/coal-memorial-to-the-flood
...However, the trees did not grow in the swamp, but were carried there by a (____post-Flood) catastrophe at the end of the Ice Age; www.insights.co.nz, posted on 4 ...
_The Black Sea flood: definitely not the Flood of Noah
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j14_1/j14_1_40-44.pdf
...account of which is faithfully recorded in the Bible. Rather than Noah's Flood, Ryan and Pitman have found evidence for a ____post-Flood catastrophe at the end of  ...
_Pre-Flood relics on the bottom of the Black Sea?
https://creation.com/pre-flood-relics-on-the-bottom-of-the-black-sea
...Rather than Noah's Flood, the Black Sea evidence points to a local, ____post-Flood catastrophe at the end of the Ice Age around 1650 BC.
_Proconsul africanus: an examination of its anatomy and evidence for ...
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j17_2/j17_2_13-15.pdf
...In 1948, Dr Mary Leakey found a distorted skull at Site R106 on Rusinga. Island, Western Kenya. The find was a nearly complete cranium, mandi ble and full ...
_'In Peleg's days, the earth was divided'
https://creation.com/in-pelegs-days-the-earth-was-divided
...This avoids the problem of another (____post-Flood) catastrophe that would accompany such a division, and destroy most land life. See also How ...
_'Animal salad' points to catastrophic demise
https://creation.com/fossil-graveyard-points-to-catastrophic-demise
...Our interpretation determines whether we have to imagine some ____Post Flood catastrophe or a natural function of Flood waters. Looking at the lithology and ...
_A Possible Creationist Interpretation of Archaic Fossil Human Remains
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j06_2/j06_2_138-167.pdf
...and at least one major ____post-Flood catastrophe for mankind. (that of the confusion of tongues at Babel). The model does not preclude the possibility that archaic ...
_Aegyptopithecus the 'Egyptian ape'
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j18_1/j18_1_105-111.pdf
...dence for its extinction in a ____post-Flood catastrophe, TJ 17(2):13–15, 2003. 10. Simons, E.L., Origins and characteristics of the first hominoids; in: Delson,. E. (Ed. ): ..

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