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2 = [1-2d] The Great Flood: Flood Myths



=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:56 pm
- there's a good chance that Noah and the ark and the animals on it may have been an apparition in the sky and that the "fountains of the great deep" referred to the sky too, since most of the ancients seem to have referred to the sky as the "great deep", also as the ocean. ...

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:08 pm
Refer to Genesis 1:14 [Creation Day 4] for the pre-flood season reference, along with Gen. 2:4-6; and to God's promise in Genesis 8:22 [the post-flood "initiation" of the principle of uniformity] for seasons based on climate/weather.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:13 pm
The chart I posted above is evidence of a flood that occurred at the same time in most of the world, since most of those myths have important elements in common: major flooding and people and sometimes animals being saved in a large vessel.
- Some cultures may have gotten their flood myths from other cultures. And it seems possible that there were vessels in several parts of the world where people and animals were saved from drowning. It's also possible that the vessel containing people and animals was an apparition in the sky as sometimes discussed among Saturn theorists. Gordon is the one who suggested that nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata worldwide were deposited all at once during the Great Flood, and that suggests that where there is no sedimentary rock on continents, there was possibly no major flooding, which means many people and animals may have survived in those locations, which are shown in the map below in the areas of Precambrian surface rock.
Great Flood Deposits
- I think there's a reasonable amount of consensus among Saturn theorists. They seem to agree that the polar planetary conjunction lasted quite a while, then the configuration destabilized and the planets and small objects in the sky appeared to behave chaotically. There were upheavals on Earth and a great flood about 4,500 years ago. Unusual electrical effects were seen. There was also rapid continental drift. An Ice Age followed. The planets soon found their orbital paths around the Sun; the Moon appeared in the sky and the new order prevailed. And civilization rebuilt in Egypt and Sumer firstly.
- Since nearly all the sedimentary strata were deposited by the flood and the fossils formed primarily at that time, the map above shows that there were several places around the world where there was little if any flooding and that's where people, animals and some plants survived best. Due to the fall of many meteors, the world's forests and grasslands caught fire, which led to coal deposits within the sedimentary areas. As Mike Fischer explains at http://newgeology.us , it makes more sense that continental drift didn't occur until a few hundred years after the Great Flood. And the movement of the northern continents toward the north pole is what froze the animals in the north. Velikovsky had thought that the Earth's axis had shifted, causing Alaska and Siberia to come close to the Arctic Circle, but rapid continental drift explains things much better than does a pole shift.

====================postby Lloyd » Tue May 31, 2016 9:59 am
- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1998.08.txt
... Myth is, I believe, a window to early human history, a more intense period of history than we've realized. The myths have their roots in a time of celestial catastrophe, and more often than not the appearance of confusion results from viewing myth as something other than what it is. In the course of cultural evolution and scientific advance, we left behind the fabled "long ago," whose images seemed wholly out of touch with our own world. Yet my personal conviction is that ancient myth, when seen as a symbolic record of earth-shaking events in the sky, will permanently change man's view of his celestial environment.
... Many common themes run through the folklore of diverse cultures. From ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia to the Americas, from India to China, Scandinavia, Africa, and the Pacific Islands, one finds surprisingly similar accounts: celestial temples and cities, a lost paradise or "Garden of Eden," a cosmic mountain, a flaming serpent or dragon in the sky -- and surprisingly similar stories of global calamity ranging from wars of the gods, to a great flood or a devastating rain of fire and gravel. If we'll look at these collective memories carefully, it will change our understanding of the past. Many of the myths concern planets, but the accounts make no sense to us in terms of the movement of these remote bodies today. Why did the planets, these little pinpricks of light, play such a powerful role in the mythical "age of the gods"? Along with others working in this field, I've come to interpret the myths and drawings and ritual practices from a new vantage point. Here is the conclusion in a nutshell: A few thousand years ago, the sky did not look anything like it appears today! Planets hung as gigantic, sometimes terrifying bodies above the ancient stargazers. In periods of stability this involved incredible beauty, but there were also periods of mind-altering catastrophe -- the most traumatic experiences in human history.
- The primary evidence comes from ancient pictures and chronicles, submitted to extensive cross-referencing. By comparing accounts from around the world, one can begin to reconstruct the way the sky looked in ancient times. Is it possible that the myths and pictographs recorded, in a language unique to the starworshippers, large-scale events we've forgotten? By keeping that possibility firmly in mind, the researcher will begin to identify crucial themes of myth -- themes found on every continent, but pointing to an alien sky. As one begins to see the past differently, recent space age discoveries will take on a new significance. Our probes of other planets, such as the Mariner explorations of Mars, the Voyager missions to Jupiter and Saturn, and more recently the Magellan mapping of Venus, the Galileo probe of Jupiter, and the Mars Surveyor have produced many stunning images of the planets and their moons, together with undeniable evidence of large-scale catastrophe within the planetary system. Taken as a whole, these stark profiles of our neighbors challenge traditional theories claiming slow and uneventful planetary evolution. Moreover, a new possibility arises from a reconsideration of the historical material: the possibility that at least some of the horrendous scars on our planetary neighbors resulted from events witnessed by man not all that long ago.
- At the core of the argument is the idea that several planets were once joined in a spectacular gathering of planets, together with gases and dust, smaller moons and cosmic debris. For prehistoric man -- who witnessed all of this -- the effect was a massive celestial display in the northern sky. I've called this celestial assembly "the polar configuration" because in its stable phases it was centered on the north celestial pole. In the beginning, the primary form was the planet Saturn, stationary but immense in the sky. Numerous lines of evidence suggest that Saturn once towered over man and inspired the most dramatic leaps in human imagination the world has ever known. Our work puts a new emphasis on the unusual celestial events reflected in the myths. When you first dive into world mythology, all of your prior training will tell you to dismiss the myth-makers as fabricators or victims of hallucination. But there's another way to see the myths. Ancient man experienced extraordinary events, then strove to remember and to reenact them in every way possible. The result was not only a global mythology, but entirely new forms of human expression. And the whole range of expressions -- sacrifices to the gods, wars of conquest, monumental construction, pictographic representations, and endless celebrations of the lost age of the gods -- left us a massive reservoir of evidence. These highly novel expressions are, in fact, the distinguishing characteristics of the first civilizations.
- The best I can ask for is a willingness to consider an argument. I could show you, for example, that certain celestial images preoccupied ancient man to the point of an obsession. A great cosmic wheel in the sky. The pyramid of the sun. The eye of heaven. Also the ship of heaven, a spiraling serpent, the raging goddess, and four luminous "winds" of the sky. The problem for conventional perspectives is that these images are far, far removed from anything we see in the heavens today. But that is only the beginning of the theoretical challenge. As soon as you realize that far-flung cultures, though employing different symbols, tell a unified story, all of the previous "explanations" of myth collapse. Of course the point will not be proven in a few sentences, and not in a few pages. But the more you learn on this subject, the more compelling the collective memory becomes.
- Yes, we are challenging an intellectual system as a whole. What is at stake here are the pillars of the modern world view. How could it be that the sky has completely changed in a few thousand years? Our textbooks do not talk about such a thing. When instructing us on the history of the solar system, the evolution of our planet, the birth of man, the origins of civilization, no one speaks of an unstable solar system, of interplanetary upheaval, or of wholesale changes in the celestial order. When the popular astronomer Carl Sagan presented his impressive exposition on the nature of things, called Cosmos, he didn't ask if we may have misunderstood our past. Rather, Sagan's expressed view -- the official view of science for many years -- fits comfortably within the textbooks on astronomy, geology, biology, anthropology, and ancient history. When we launched the U.S. Space program in the late 50s, then devoted billions of dollars to exploring neighboring planets, no one thought to ask if the planets might have followed different courses in earlier times, whether recent disturbances of the planetary system might have left their tell-tale marks on these remote bodies. So when our cameras and measuring devices reached the planets Mars and Venus, and the Voyager probes provided spectacular glimpses of Jupiter and Saturn -- well, we were left with a hundred enigmas and unanswered questions. And yes, there's a certain irony to this. The prevailing view of myth proclaims that, through science, man escaped the bonds of superstition and make believe. But now, in the twentieth century -- the age of science and reason -- it is myth and symbol that will provide the lost key to the past, the key to a new understanding of the solar system and of human origins. At the heart of this claim is a bedrock principle: the myth-making age arose from the human urge to REMEMBER [for future generations, because the sky had changed]; hence, the patterns of myth are the patterns of human memory. And if it can be rigorously demonstrated from cross-cultural comparison that numerous DIFFERENT words and symbols and mythical themes actually point to the SAME HIGHLY UNUSUAL EVENTS, then the patterns of memory will carry more weight than science has ever considered.
- Each of these impressive scholars came to discern certain unified layers of myth, layers our traditional cynicism about myth never anticipated. Perhaps the greatest contribution of these pioneers is their acknowledgment that the common view -- seeing myth as random absurdity -- will not suffice to explain the subject. I think the late Joseph Campbell has done the most to awaken popular interest in myth, and he is one of my own favorites too. Following a comparative approach, Campbell brought to light quite a number of global themes. He noted, for example, the myths of the central sun, the world mountain, the flowering of creation through sacrifice, the birth of the hero, the terrible goddess, and so on. Any one of these themes, when explored in its full context, could open the door to incredible discovery. But Campbell, like so many others, stopped short of asking the most important question of all: if the celestial references of the myths are absent today, is it possible that they were present in a former time?
- The mythmakers are telling us we've forgotten the very thing they regarded as most vital -- in fact, the source of all meaning to the first starworshippers. We've forgotten the age of the gods. We've assumed that as long as man has journeyed on our planet the world looked and behaved almost exactly as it does today. And that is the fundamental error of modern perception. The answer to that error is to re-envision the past. With the help of the ancient chroniclers, its time to bring the forgotten dramas -- both the beauty, and the nightmare scenarios -- into the light of day.

====================postby Lloyd » Tue May 31, 2016 10:06 am
- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1999.08.txt
... CARDONA: ... If the Saturnian system was NOT captured by the Sun, the advent of day and night would have commenced at the clearing of the Saturnian nebular cloud within which the Saturnian system was enshrouded. In any case, whether the Saturnian system was, or was not, captured by the Sun, the Saturnian nebular, or placental, cloud would still have shielded the Sun from view until after Saturn's flare-up which, among other things, blew the placental cloud out of existence.
... ROBERT PREVIOUSLY: At what point does massive flooding come into the scenario? Do you believe that great quantities of water fell from the sky and/or world pillar in conjunction with the break-up?
- CARDONA: >From the world pillar during the break-up, definitely ... [over not] even a century.
- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv01.txt
- Excerpts from Dwardu Cardona's SIS Silver Jubilee Paper
- Once again, I cannot here present the entire string of evidential sources which attest to the whirling motion of the cosmic pillar. Instead I will merely present the opinion of four authorities on the subject. DC Santillana and von Dechend are two of many who came to the conclusion that the [visible Earth's] axis did twist and turn -- although they seemed somewhat unsure of whether it did so slowly or rapidly -- even if to them the axis was anything but an actual physical entity. So, incidentally, did Elmer Suhr when he speaks of the 'whirling cosmic column' and 'the whirling column of the cosmos.' In fact, Suhr goes on to stress: 'It is especially important to think of the cosmic column not as a static post but as a constantly whirling crucible...' Talbott, of course, also recognized this fact when he wrote that 'the cosmic mountain in many creation epics is presented as a churning, serpentine column rising along the world axis...' t is more than obvious from descriptions of the Saturnian axis, as well as prehistoric Petroglyphs, that the polar column was a visible entity rather than a deduced abstraction. This was so much so that, in some cases, the axis was even pictured as a ladder reaching to the Saturnian sun. ... It is ... this bolus flow that would have given the planetary tornado, or Rankine vortex, its serpentine quality.
- AMY: Cardona proposes, if the polar column were actually a colossal tornado, that the Saturn theory demands that this, too, should be part of the mytho-historical record. ... [T]he tornado would have sucked large amounts of waters from the Earth and ancient man should have been aware of this, if not from observing the column itself, then at least from observing what happened when the column was severed.
- CARDONA: [A]mong the Australian Aborigines, the great python is the most impressive representative of the polar column. It is therefore significant that this python is not only believed to tower up to the level of the clouds, but that he also 'brings about rain and flood.' The Efe pygmies of the Ituri forest tell of a deluge of water which gushed forth as a mighty river when their version of the Cosmic Tree, which was the polar column, was felled. Similarly, the Arawak Indians of the [Guianas] tell of a wondrous tree which Sigu cut down. From its stump, water gushed out in such quantity as to cause a deluge. This tale is also found among the traditions of the Cuna, who tell of their mischief-maker, the Tapir, chopping down the Saltwater Tree from which salt water gushed out to form the oceans of the world. Thus, Velikovsky was correct when he surmised that the water of the Deluge would have been salty, but not, as he believed, because the salt, or at least its chlorine content, originated from Saturn. The water was salty because it came from the same oceanic water the vortex had sucked up in the first place.
- AMY: Cardona moves on to the next demand of the Saturn Theory. If the Deluge was [partly] the result of the collapse of a colossal tornado situated in the north, then the mytho-historical record must also contain this information. And it does. Among others, three American Indian tribes, the Wintus, the Wichita, and the Pawnee, tell different legends of the flood, but in each case the deluge arrives from the north.
- CARDONA: But what of the hard sciences? Is the evidence there? Once again, I can only mention a few items here, but that an enormous flood had once swept down from the north to scour the land surface of North America has been suggested by J. Harlan Bretz. So, similarly, with C. Warren Hunt who speaks of evidence pointing to a flood from the north, excavating the land as it went before it emptied into Lake Bonneville. That Lake Bonneville itself also burst its bounds to cause a secondary flood has been documented by Robert Jarred and Harold Malde. What is of additional interest here is that the area once covered by this lake constitutes a vast salt deposit 100 square miles [= ten miles square] in extent. Similar signs of a vast scouring flood from the north have also been discovered in Siberia. ... [T]his flood was [not] due to the catastrophic melting of the northern ice cap at the end of the Ice Age [since, at that] time, the northern ice cap had not yet been formed.
... [T]he Indic myth from the Mahabharata and the Bhagavata Purana [says]: In an effort to produce ... divine nectar, both gods and demons used Mount Mandara as a churning stick. Winding the serpent Vasuki, [or] Ananta, around Mount Mandara, ... depicted not in the form of a mountain, but in that of a pillar ... the gods (at one end) and the demons (at the other) grasped hold of Vasuki by the head and tail and, pulling him back and forth, were able to rotate Mount Mandara fast enough to whisk the sea into an ocean of milk from which amrita was produced. ... [T]hus ... the mythic World Mountain and the Axis Mundi were one and the same. In fact, it has long been known to Indologists that Mount Mandara stood for the axis of the world. ... In Vasuki we recognize the bolus flow wrapped around the central vortex -- and here it is interesting to note that this entity was 'associated with the north,' thus locating the entire action in that locality. Finally, in the divinities' churning by pulling at the coiled Vasuki this way and that way, an echo is retained of the clockwise/counterclockwise rotation of the bolus flow as described by Jueneman.
... The elements contained in the myth of the churning of the ocean must not be thought of as uniquely Hindu in origin. In the Hindu myth, for instance, we see that Mandara was placed on the back of a tortoise. In Chinese mythology, it is Shang-ti who is depicted as standing on the celestial tortoise, while the serpent was said to have encircled the tortoise. Shang-ti's title was The Holy and Propitious Prince of the North Pole, who is usually represented as surrounded by a halo, both of which have special meaning to this study. It is also noteworthy that the symbolism of the tortoise and serpent goes at least as far back as the Han dynasty and was used as an emblem for the northern region of the world. More than that, as Lord of the Centre, Shang-ti was also revered as Huang-ti, who is perhaps better known as the Yellow Lord or Yellow Emperor. The Yellow Emperor has long been acknowledged to be an avatar of Saturn. And in the Japanese Kojiki we learn of the Heavenly Jeweled Spear which joined heaven to Earth and which acted as the churning stick responsible for the surfacing of the mythical ... island of Onogoro [in the sky].

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:13 am
- It's certainly possible that there are or were physical ETs who planted us on the Earth and saved enough living things in times of cataclysms to repopulate the planet afterwards. But I'm inclined more to think that it's angels who do those things. There seems to be more evidence that angels or spirits exist than that ETs exist. The evidence of UFOs etc could actually be evidence of angels, as well as mankind's own recent inventions to some extent. Where the Bible speaks about God, it seems to mean angels of God. For example, the beings who visited Abraham before the destruction of Sodom and Gemorah were referred to as Lord, men and angels. The story of Moses and the burning bush where God spoke to him is repeated in the Book of Acts, I think, and there it's stated, I think by Stephen, that it was an angel who spoke to Moses. So I think the Bible only refers to the doings of angels, not really to those of "God". If I were an advanced being, I think I'd certainly prefer to have an immortal spirit body, than a mortal physical one, if I could manage it. I do believe in holistic, infinitely caring consciousness by the way.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:17 pm
Gordon, do you think sedimentary rock strata locations indicate where the Great Flood occurred? And do you think where there are no sedimentary rock strata, the Flood did not occur? Here's a map of Precambrian strata locations in a light pinkish color, while sedimentary locations are light greenish:
The site is: http://higheredbcs.wiley.com/legacy/college/levin/0471697435/chap_tut/chaps/chapter08-07.html
The main locations where Flood deposits are minimal or none are in much of eastern Canada & Greenland, Antarctica, eastern South America, southwestern Africa and other spotted locations in Eurasia & Australia.
If the Flood was not significant in those areas, then organisms could have probably survived there without an ark.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:40 pm
I say that the frequently fossiliferous Cambrian and "above" sequences were deposited during the flood, in at least three major stages marked by the PreCambrian/Cambrian ["explosion"], PT [Permian/Triassic extinctions] and KT [Cretaceous/Tertiary extinctions] stratigraphic boundaries found globally. Add the Pliocene/Pleistocene groupings as a 4th major ending event [the Ice Epoch].
No, I would not say that there was no major flooding where there are no sedimentary rocks, nor that possibly living things survived on land not flooded. I do hold that some sea creatures survived the flood, as there is no indication in the biblical record of Noah being commissioned to save them; and in geology we find that fossilized sea creatures are found generally buried in strata beneath the fossils of land creatures -- this "first burial" trend would be expected since their habitats are "lower" than those of the land creatures. Standard model "shallow sea" explanations are to me indicators of creatures washed over onto and buried on the ancient continental shelves or lowland areas, which could be nearly anywhere on the ancient supercontinent before the formation of the boundary [brake] mountain ranges.
The Precambrian rock areas may have not been flooded or were washed clean as they were being uplifted toward the end of the flood into the exposed areas they now are found. There are no indicators from fossil evidence or otherwise that these "shield" regions were areas where anything survived the cataclysm; however the lack of fossils and the metamorphic/intrusive morphologies of Precambrian sequences in general do place them as being formed before the deluge, possibly primordial, or as vestiges of the original uplift of the continents above the primordial sea.
Other areas where there are no [exposed] sedimentary sequences are regions of "recent" [last stages of flood and post-flood] volcanism, so these would be an "afterthought" of the cataclysm, although the causation of these later events was definitely put in place by the flood apparati. Hence volcanic arcs are found adjacent/parallel to boundary ranges and trenches, etc. and/or other stressed areas of the continents.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:39 pm
Since the Great Flood likely deposited nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata, why did it not deposit anything in the numerous shield regions? Since Noah's ark is likely to have referred to the Saturn Configuration, the actual survival of humans and animals would be likely due to one or two of two possibilities:
1. the Flood did not cover the entire surface of the Earth (some or all of the shield regions);
2. humans in many locations independently took to boats and ships for the duration of the Flood and animals lived on some of the ships and/or on floating mats of logs and debris.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:03 am
The shield regions are Pre-Cambrian exposures that do show some large-scale erosive/depositional action, eg. drumlins on the Canadian shield in Ontario; just because there are no major stratigraphic sequences doesn't mean they were untouched by flood tides or currents.

--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:16 am
... My views? Multiple catastrophes with the last major one approx 12,000 years ago. The last of the lesser approx 1200BCE. I'm more interested in the human side of things rather than the Earth/science side.
- ... If there was a 'global' flood then it would have been 12000 ya. It can't have been either the MBA or LBA collapses as there were still several peoples, eg, Egyptians, Indians etc who didn't completely collapse. ...
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:37 am
... (As I see it) Venus and Mars were definitely involved in the LBA collapse as were Jupiter and the Sun. Homer makes this clear. Whether Venus was involved in any of the previous incidents is hard to say partly because it is difficult to know in which time period a story takes place.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:44 pm
... Nanodiamond-Rich Layer across Three Continents Consistent with Major Cosmic Impact at 12,800 Cal BP http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/677046

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:12 am
As for tsunami sediments, this objection against tsunami action is not well thought out; consider this view:
A tsunami is simply a water delivery system. Whatever materials are there to be delivered, and whatever organisms or objects are there to be buried, these are what will appear in the resulting deposits. Remember that the deluge was not just a passive submergence of land, but rather powerful currents flowing over the land and eventually laying their deposits over vast sections of the low topography. Today's tsunamis operate in low coastal areas, washing in and back out again not able to pass higher ground. A different nature of deposit will be left in this scenario.


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