Author Topic: 2 = [1-0] The Millennium of Global Catastrophe 4-5,000 BP  (Read 114 times)


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Re: [1-0] A Millennium of Global Cataclysms 4-5k BP
« on: January 09, 2017, 11:14:48 am »

An excellent amateur scientist friend, Charles Chandler, with detailed analysis determined that the Sun and planets must have originated about 380 million years ago. He found that the star formation process is primarily electrical, as explained in his Astrophysics and Geophysics papers at . However, it's also possible that Earth originated elsewhere and was captured by the Sun later. In his model a planet can form either as a smaller bead of plasma next to a larger bead or two of stars, or it can form from the decay of a star. So, if the Earth and other planets were formed as planets with the Sun, they'd all be about 380 million years old. If they formed as stars and decayed and were captured by the Sun, they could be much older than the Sun. Many Bible students think the Earth and the entire universe were made by God about 6,000 years ago. But some think it was only the biosphere that originated at that time, based on certain translations. The surface features of the Earth appear to have formed between 4 and 5 thousand years ago. The evidence will be discussed in section [1-2c]. Section [1-5] will cover Earth's Origin.
[CC said: What is the reason for going with a "Young Earth" chronology?
LK: The Earth may or may not be old; its surface seems to be young. Cataclysms seem to have occurred around 4,350 years ago, which reshaped the top two miles of the continents' sedimentary strata. The cataclysm/s involved meteor impacts, land movements & tsunamis.]
=========================Postby Lloyd » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:36 pm
- Young Earth vs Old Earth. Charles found a webpage that has a lot of arguments for Old Earth and against Young Earth. It's here:
- Of course, those of us who consider only the surface of the Earth to be young, rather than the entire Earth, aren't bothered by some of the evidence. ...
LK: What is the best physical evidence of Catastrophism?
a. Berthault's findings on sedimentation?
b. interbedding of lava and sedimentary rock in Washington etc?
c. Fisher's findings of the large crater on the east side of Africa?
- Can you name other evidence here that you think should be discussed?
GW: Astroblemes associated with every major stratum, the strata themeselves, the absence of record for the 100-millions of years hiatuses
LK: Where are the main gaps in Catastrophism theory?
GW: Gaps in Catastrophic concepts. Our current epoch of relative geologic calm, cyclical seasons and climate were prescribed/predicted at the end of the flood event. Until people begin to recognize that our present case is a result and recovery from the cataclysm of old, the only thing that will convince them is the next global catastrophe. Perhaps even for some this is the lure of Anthropogenic Global Warming and its attendant catastrophes. So the "gap" is the the modern cultural mind. Along with this, the standard model indoctrination of radiometric dating, taught without reference or regard for the assumptions on which it is built, is a roadblock for many. "Hasn't science proven the world is 4.5 billions years old?" it will be commonly quipped.
LK: What are promising ways to get the theory of Catastrophism widely accepted?
- What audiences might be best targeted?
- Christians; Muslims; Jews; homeschool families; libertarians; Republicans; conservatives; private schools; specific places in social media; online conferences; online videos ...?
GW: Catastrophism isn't a theory, or even a variety of theories, it is a paradigm. When you view the world around you, you see processes at work, weather, the water cycle, mountains uplifting, volcanism, the biosphere with its myriad varieties and variations. Does this world appear to you as stable, unchanging [or invisibly slowly changing], predictably cyclical? If so, then the pardigm of Uniformitarianism suits you well, and you readily learn to interpret the physical evidence in the framework of gradualism. Since the time of Lyell, Hutton, and Darwin, the social indoctrination in this perspective has been facilitated by the naturalistic approach of scientism which, by its appropriate self-limitation to the experimental study of repeatable processes has led many to the conclusion that all of the universe of space, time and matter, is predictable and formulaic. It is possible that this indoctrination is indelible [for some?]; there is a comfort to this boxing up of the cosmos, that makes it virtually impossible to break free to explore other options.
- As open-minded to the evidence as most scientists claim to be, they generally fail to recognize that their worldview is enslaved to the modern materialistic and deterministic paradigm. I was trained in this perspective, and so it took me a number of years to be able to see the world as I do today. We are in a period of relatively unremarkable stability, punctuated however by occasional (and increasing, imo) catastrophic events. The physical record of the past Is full of evidence of widespread and repeated flood deposition, seismic activity, meteor impacts, and the like. These episodes are separated by imagined hiatal periods in which supposed long epochs of mountain building and subsequent erosion leave the earth's surface relatively flat. Without these alleged hiatuses, the record is one of cataclysm and catastrophe. In the "last days" we are told catastrophism will be mocked according to the biblical record (2 Peter). It is possible we are living in a representative social climate. People will continue to believe what they want to believe, until that belief system no longer suits them ... generations later perhaps history will record our time as the Era of Doubt, despite our ever increasing awareness of large-scale catastrophic processes.
=========================Postby Lloyd » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:21 am
... If you readers are interested, please answer a few questions here to help decide which topics to discuss first and on what date/s and time/s.
... Previous Answers
Here are 14 members' answers to these recent questions.
Was there a Global Flood a few thousand years ago? 14 say probably
Was there other global cataclysm a few thousand years ago? 14 say probably
Was there more than one global cataclysm in the past 20,000 years? 13 say probably
Are some ancient myths good evidence for ancient global cataclysm? 14 say probably
Which, if any, planets probably have had drastic changes in their orbits in the past 20,000 years? 12 named one or more planets
Do you know of very good evidence for your ideas about ancient cataclysm? 14 say yes
Are you willing to change your mind if you learn of better alternative evidence? 14 say yes
Are you interested in friendly collaborative discussion about catastrophism online (preferably on an Etherpad)? 12 say yes
- Chronology: Here's another version of an updated chronology that I posted on the Earth History thread.
*(k means thousand years ago)
1. (...k) Solar System formation string from imploding nebular filament
2. (15k) Supercontinent formation from soft DiMoon collision
2a. Biosphere proliferation in ideal climate
2b. Advancement of Civilization
3. (12k) Saturn Flare from impact in Kuyper belt
4. (6k) Asteroid Belt formation from Aster collision
5. (5k) Saturn System encounter with Jupiter
5a. Saturn Subplanets dispersal
6. (4.4k) Asteroid Belt crossing (5 months)
6a. Asteroids bombardment of Earth, Moon & Mars
6b. Rapid Continental sliding
6c. Inner and outer Mountain Ranges formation
6d. Vulcanism in outer mountain ranges
6e. Flood Basalts in India, Siberia & Washington
6f. Great Flood tsunamis (5 months)
7. (4.4k) Ice Age (few hundred years)
8. (4.3k) Ancient Ice Age Map making
8a. Civilization rebuilding
9a. (4.2k) Scablands flooding
9b. Grand Canyon formation by lakes draining
- The Letter to Shock Dynamics (
- The Site's Main Points from "When did it happen?"
... major phase of uplift in the Pliocene-Pleistocene occurred over a short time primarily due to compression by Shock Dynamics ca. 9,500 B.C.
- 1. Before the Flood, Earth's atmosphere was dense, so many creatures grew to gigantic sizes
- 2. Dinosaurs occupied most of the protocontinent while people and other animals lived in Mesopotamia or East Antarctica
- 4. There was much sand and mud around the edges of the protocontinent and East Antarctica
- 3. Then a long swarm of meteorites of all sizes struck the Moon and Earth for forty days, causing rain and loss of much atmosphere
- 5. During the Flood tsunamis deposited sediment from the continental shelf onto the protocontinent
- 6. As atmospheric pressure fell much calcium carbonate precipitated from the sea water, forming thick sedimentary rock with fossils
- 7. "Paleozoic" creatures living near sea shores were buried first.
- 8. "Mesozoic" creatures that could escape inland were buried second.
- 10. Survivors of the Flood landed in Mesopotamia and spread out on the flat protocontinent
- 11. There were only 360 days in a year before the Flood.
- 9. After the Flood the Chicxulub meteorite hit Mexico, spreading iridium and shocked quartz over the protocontinent
- 12. A giant meteorite impact north of what is now Madagascar divided the protocontinent into the continents and islands
- 13. It raised all the mountain chains, and initiated global volcanism
- 14. "Cenozoic" large mammals & others were buried and fossilized
- 15. Much of the continental crust moved away from the equator and toward the poles
- 16. Atmospheric moisture and volcanic and impact dust led to cooling and extensive rain and snow fall, glaciation
- 17. Civilization was rebuilt such as along the newly formed Nile River
- 18. Meteor impacts produced the dust on the Moon
- My Comments. I found Chapman's Glacial Cataclysm at: Do you know if that's the same? It seemed like it was attributing a lot of evidence for glaciation to the Great Flood or something. Why do you suggest that the cataclysms occurred 11,500 BP and earlier? It seems that the Flood occurred almost 4,400 BP.
- In listing your points, I rearranged a couple of items. I put 4 before 3 because 4 refers to the supercontinent situation before 3's meteor swarm arrived. And I put 9 after 10 and 11, because Chixulub occurred after the Great Flood in your model.
- 1. Regarding #1, it may be worthwhile to explain that a dense atmosphere would have made dinosaurs and other megafauna much more buoyant, so their muscles would have been strong enough to move them around, and pterodachtyls would have been able to stand on their pencil-thin legs.
- 2. Human footprints and fossils in dinosaur strata in the U.S. Southwest seem to indicate that humans lived among dinosaurs to some extent.
- 4. I think shale makes up over 50% of sedimentary strata, sandstone 25% and limestone the rest. According to Noah’s Flood: The Key to Correct Interpretation of Earth History (by Baumgardner & others) at tsunamis 2,500 m high caused by tidal pulses could have produced enough cavitation along continental margins to produce all of the sediments needed. It suggests that the 5 megasequences of rock strata could have been deposited during monthly tidal pulses between the 6 unconformities bordering the megasequences. Snelling, on the other hand, seems to agree with your idea of sand and mud coming up from the seafloor via smaller tsunamis, I guess. But I presume both processes would have been involved.
- 3. Gordon says the Hebrew word, "matar", probably meant "meteors" and they occurred during the entire 5 months of the Great Flood. This reminded me of the part of the Saturn Theory that says Earth was a satellite of Saturn and it drifted away from Saturn and then crossed the Asteroid belt before arriving at its present orbit. I thought maybe the 5 month meteor bombardment may have occurred when Earth crossed the Asteroid belt. I thought that might be when the Ice Age occurred, when Earth moved from the Asteroid belt to within the orbit of Mars. Before that its atmosphere may have been thick enough to prevent much cooling. However, it looks like the Ice Age had to occur some time after the Great Flood, as you say. There seems to be something to the Saturn Theory, because the ancients said Saturn was the god at the north pole, the pole star, and that Saturn was the first Sun etc.
- 5. seems probable re sedimentation; plus my comments on #4.
- 6. seems probable re lime from seawater; I didn't know that, but Gordon may have been aware of that.
- 7&8. seem probable re sequence of "Paleozoic" & "Mesozoic" creatures' burials.
- 10. seems possible re Survivors landing in Mesopotamia. Saturn Theory says a lot of phenomena in ancient myths were celestial events, rather than terrestrial. There were plasma phenomena seen in the sky that looked like people and animals etc. So it's hard to tell if Noah's ark was celestial or also terrestrial.
- 11. seems possible re 360 days in a year before the Flood. That doesn't seem important as yet, but it could be.
- 9. seems possible re Chicxulub meteorite hitting after the Flood. I'd like to know more of your evidence for that.
- 12. seems very probable re SD impact and rapid continental drift. Maybe you need a video to address the issue of why the popular Creationist theory of rapid CD is inferior to the SD model. I guess you might have to suppress your idea of the Great Flood occurring before 11,500 BP in order to get Creationists to consider your model.
- 13. seems probable re SD causing mountain uplift and volcanism, but I thought that all occurred during the Great Flood, because the sediments would have been soft, so the strata could fold without breaking, as seen in many mountain strata. If the mountain uplift happened long after the Great Flood, would the strata still have been soft? Or do you think the strata were softened by heating during the SD event? If so, do you have much evidence for that? I bet Gordon would know something about that.
- 14. seems plausible re "Cenozoic" animals fossilized during the SD event in crumbly strata.
- 15. seems probable re SD pushing some continents toward the poles.
- 16. seems probable re evaporation & glaciation. Gordon says secondary erosion and sedimentation occurred after mountain uplift.
- 17. seems probable re civilization rebuilding along the Nile etc, but much later, i.e. ca. 4,300 BP.
- 18. seems probable re meteor impacts making the dust on the Moon.
- Regarding Ice Age Mammals. I think you should briefly explain how you differ from Oard. He seems to say that the Arctic Ocean kept the nearby surrounding land warm for a few centuries, during which the animals got trapped there as the climate gradually got colder, whereas you seem to say that all of the lands were warmer until the SD event, which moved some of the land north into freezing conditions, and the animals succumbed right away instead of gradually.
- You said, "If we use the elephant life-cycle as a model, a 13 year doubling rate (starting with 2 mammoths) would produce a population at least as large as that which was buried." Did you show the figures anywhere? I think it's worth showing them. 300 years / 13 years/generation = 23 generations. 2^23 > 8 million.
- Regarding Tektites. You call it the largest strewnfield (covering the Indian Ocean to Australia), but doesn't that refer to the present size of it? When the tektites fell (before India, Southeast Asia, Australia etc moved away from Africa), the field would have been much smaller. Shouldn't you mention that?
- The Mechanism of Impacts. Here are some of Charles' discussions on impacts etc: He says impacts are usually thermonuclear explosions. He did do a paper on meteoric air bursts at He and Gordon consider 26 hours way too short a time for the continents to have moved to near their present locations. What convinced you that the continents took only 26 hours to complete their journeys, instead of a longer period of time? It makes sense to me because of the great reduction in friction that you explain. Actually, there may have been even less friction, since the Moho layer is likely plasma, so the movements would have been like maglev with the continents levitating on the Moho. One of Charles' papers explains why the Moho is likely plasma, only about a meter thick.
- Your model says the Shock Dynamics meteor came in at about a 30 degree angle (going from west to east over Africa and landing north of Madagascar). Normally, one would think that the momentum would be transferred only in the forward direction to the pieces that became India, southeast Asia, Australia and New Zealand. But Charles' model explains why the momentum would be transferred in all horizontal directions. It's because the impact produced a thermonuclear explosion. He explains that all that's needed for such an explosion is extreme heat and extreme pressure, both of which a fast moving meteor provides. So I think readers may be able to understand that better (momentum transferred west toward Africa and the Americas as well as to the north and east) if it's compared to throwing a hand grenade or other kind of bomb.
- Supercontinent Breakup. I think it would help if your model could explain why the Americas broke away from Africa and Europe, instead of at least Africa moving westward as well. I think Gordon suspects that a tidal force from another large body weakened the supercontinent along that rift line. Charles thinks the supercontinent was possibly torn off of the Moon long ago, because of the similarity in rock composition between the supercontinent and the Moon. So I thought maybe ocean water may have gotten trapped under the supercontinent, which could have weakened the crust in a way similar to Walter Brown's Hydroplate model. I admit, however, that it doesn't seem probable that much water should have gotten trapped, since a ball shape meeting another ball shape should move almost all fluids to the side. Eurasia didn't break apart, so why did Africa and the Americas? What would most likely have weakened the crust there between them?
=========================Postby Lloyd » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:10 am
I'm working on a sort of paper on this at
CC on Planets (Earth Features since Formation):
CC on Electric Orbits (Titius-Bode Law):
Geochronology, Part 1 (Mythic Record):
Geochronology, Part 2 (CC on Supercontinent):
Geochronology, Part 3 (Great Flood):
Geochronology, Part 4 (Post Flood Catastrophes):
Geochronology, Part 5 (Continental Drift & Ice Age):
- The Geochronology Part 4 includes major events like carving the Grand Canyon, the Floods in Washington and Idaho etc, the flooding of the Mediterranean Sea, which was almost a dry basin before flooding, and the flooding of the Black Sea. I suppose these actually likely occurred after the Continental Drift event some centuries after the Great Flood. The Mediterranean and Black Seas floods must have been terrifying, since both were pretty deep, probably a mile or so. Right?
LK: Do you think the Earth existed before the time the Bible says it was created?
- Do you consider Earth to be just 6,000 or 7,000 years old, as per the popular Bible interpretation?
- Or do you think the supercontinent formed before that?
- How do you think the supercontinent formed on the Earth? Have you read Charles' theory?
GW: I think it is possible that the earth's crust and atmosphere were the topics of Genesis 1 and 2, so there is a reasonable option that the primordial planet and other bodies were created prior to that time by immeasurable years.
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