FUNDAY

CATACLYSM DATES & SOME ANALYSIS

In my last post I listed 6 sources that indicate that a global cataclysm occurred within 3 centuries before 2,000 BC.

2188 BC EGYPT: A Byzantinian said Egypt existed since that year, apparently not long after a Great Flood.
2244 BC ATLANTIS: The OERA LINDA BOOK said Atlantis sank that year.
2285 BC? GLOBAL FLOOD: The TOLTECS said a Great Flood occurred then.
2344 BC GLOBAL FLOOD: The GREAT PYRAMID indicates a Great Flood occurred that year.
2345 BC GLOBAL FLOOD: The BIBLE says the Great Flood occurred then.
2345 BC ASTEROID IMPACT: Astronomer George Dodwell said in SCIENCE MAGAZINE that an asteroid Hit the Earth at that time.

I was hoping Dodwell's finding would provide the best evidence for a date, but the following paper says it, and especially his dating, is not well supported by the data. On the other hand, legends indicate that something violently shook the Earth and greatly changed its motion in ancient times. I'll show the conclusion from the paper against Dodwell first, then the legends which support the sources above.

An Analysis of the Dodwell Hypothesis
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/an-analysis-of-the-dodwell-hypothesis/
_Conclusion
_I have examined the methodology that Dodwell employed in developing his hypothesis that the earth was subjected to a catastrophic change in its tilt in 2345 BC, an alleged catastrophe that the earth has recovered from as recently as 1850. In a few instances I have had difficulty in replicating Dodwell’s results. In other cases Dodwell was a bit overzealous in extracting data and uncritically relied upon secondary sources. With no discussion of errors in the observations, it appears that he treated his data with near infinite precision. Dodwell’s hypothesis is highly dependent upon early measurements of the obliquity of the ecliptic that are not supported by Egyptologists. From these considerations, I consider the Dodwell hypothesis untenable. Despite these defects, a skeptical analysis that I have conducted here has left a few data points that are difficult to square with the conventional understanding of the obliquity of the ecliptic over time. While I cannot rule out that in the past the earth’s tilt was altered by some yet unknown mechanism, neither can I confirm it. The most reliable ancient data do not demand the sort of catastrophic change in the earth’s tilt with a gradual recovery that Dodwell maintained, so there is great doubt that this alleged event happened. If such an event actually happened, we cannot fix the date of that event with any certainty. Creationists are discouraged from embracing the Dodwell hypothesis.

____>Surprise Witness: What Really Happened During the Flood
https://books.google.com/books?id=JKLfy8bc5uoC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=Dodwell+something+%22struck%22+the+earth&source=bl&ots=luRudjwo3C&sig=ACfU3U2QxDX-7bSFOqDxo5ZEUeO6Gd_2_Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjS2s6Q_eLxAhXPB80KHc0iDhcQ6AEwBXoECB4QAw#v=onepage&q=Dodwell%20something%20%22struck%22%20the%20earth&f=false
p15 The tilting remembered
_This tilting of the earth's axis is handed down with teror-struck impressiveness in the traditions of many nations. A few examples will suffice.
-- Eskimos: The earth tilted violently before the Flood began.
-- Mexico: "The earth shook to its foundations. The sky sank lower towards the north. The sun, moon and stars changed their motions. The earth fell to pieces, and the waters in its bosom uprushed with violence and overflowed.... The system of the universe was totally disordered. Man had rebelled against the high gods. The sun went into eclipse, the planets altered their courses."6
-- China: The earth tilted violently before the Deluge. The sky suddenly began to fall northward. The heavenly bodies changed their courses after the earth had been shaken.
-- Egypt: The earth turned over.7
-- Greenland (natives): When the Great Flood came, the earth capsized like a boat.
-- The Polynesians and Hindus also related this phenomenon.
_In Tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud it is said, "Seven days before the deluge, the Holy One changed the primeval order and the sun rose in the west and set in the east."
_Certainly, if our planet's axis had been tilted, the sky [or the stars etc] would appear to have moved in relation to the earth.
^____
Following are some other sources that discussed Dodwell's model, but I haven't read them. I assume that the two sources above are the most relevant and useful, at least regarding Dodwell.

An Evaluation of Astronomical Young-Age Determination
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/age-of-the-universe/an-evaluation-of-astronomical-young-age-determination-methods-i-solar-system/

"IT'S A YOUNG WORLD AFTER ALL"
https://creationism.org/books/ackerman/AckermanYoungWorldChap11.htm

George Dodwell
https://atlantipedia.ie/samples/tag/george-dodwell/
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Post by Lloyd » Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:04 pm

73903

PREVIOUS CATACLYSM DATES

I started doing major research on Catastrophism almost 6 years ago. On Saturday, Oct 31, 2015, I posted the following, but edited, at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16025#p108920

[2244 BC OERA LINDA BOOK] ... An ancient history book, the Oera Linda Boek, dating primarily from AD 803, but added to for 500 years, bears this postscript: “written in Liuwert (Ljuwert) in the 3,499th year after Atland (Atlantis) sank, or 1256, the year of the Christian reckoning.” This historian placed the sinking of Atlantis in 2244 BC (Alec Maclellan, The Lost World of Agharti. 1982, p. 186).

[TOLTECS] WHAT THE TOLTECS REMEMBERED ABOUT HISTORY: In the sixteenth century, the native Mexican chronicler, Ixtilxochitl in his Relaciones penned a history based on all available pre-Conquest records and legends. ... The Flood came “after the world had existed for 1,716 years” (Francis Hitching, World Atlas of Mysteries. 1978, p.165). This is only a 60 year variation from the figure given in the King James Bible. (Genesis chapter 5)

[2188 BC] EGYPT: Egypt’s monuments themselves do not begin their records before the 19th dynasty. The Byzantine chronicler Constantinus Manasses wrote that the State of Egypt had already lasted 1663 years, [since] 2188 BC. Egypt was anciently known as the land of Khem (i.e. Ham [son of Noah]). Menes and Hermes were two of Ham’s sons. HERMES (CUSH) WAS FOUNDER OF EGYPT’S RELIGION.

[2344 BC GREAT PYRAMID] FLOOD DATE ALSO DEFINED: The Flood ended in 2344 BC. The Great Pyramid independently confirms this date (Stewart, The Mystery of the Great Pyramid, pp 17-19). The star group Aquarius is featured in the astronomy of the Pyramid. Ancient peoples associated AQUARIUS with the waters of the GREAT FLOOD. The pyramid measurements incorporate the length of the new, post-Flood 365¼ day year, and NOT the pre-Flood 360 day year.
-The ancient Chinese, Babylonian, Roman, Mayan, Indian and Egyptian calendars were 360 days long. But later, every nation changed its calendar.

[2345 BC SCIENCE MAGAZINE] Something Hit the Earth (See http://newgeology.us)
AXIS RECOVERY (4,355 YEARS): summer solstices at Stonehenge, Amen Ra, Eodoxus show an exponential curve of recovery of the earth’s axis after a sudden change. The earth’s axis had once been almost upright, but it had suddenly changed to a 26½ degrees tilt, from which it had been wobbling back to its present mean tilt of 23½ degrees (Science Magazine, May 15, 1970). Dodwell concluded that something "struck" the earth at that time, 2345 BC.
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BIBLE FLOOD DATE: 3300 BC
_I'm not a creationist, but I find creation science to be better than mainstream geology. JP Michael once said that the Bible has evidence of having been written by some of the Biblical Patriarchs. If that is true and if their writings were passed down to Moses, then the Biblical record might be fairly accurate. But I'll rely more on other ways of dating the Flood.
_In this post https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum3/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&start=690#p7710 I concluded that the Septuagint Old Testament Flood Date of c. 3300 BC is better than the Masoretic Old Testament date of c. 2400 BC.
I referenced this article: https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j31_1/J31_1_120-127.pdf which mentions 11 arguments for accepting the Septuagint over the Masoretic. The most telling arguments of these IMO are as follows.
"5. Jewish historians from about 200 BC to 100 AD, including most of Josephus’ numbers, referenced the LXX chronology.
7. The earliest witness to the MT chronology occurs in the Seder Olam Rabbah, which severely reduced post-exilic chronology in order to disqualify Jesus as the Messiah that Daniel 9:6 foretold.
11. The Pharisees generally believed that the Messiah would arrive during the sixth millennium after creation. They marshalled the few remaining Scriptures available to them after Bar Kochba revolt in 132–136 AD to finalize the MT. This moment in history could have enabled their alteration of Genesis 11 and 5 to shrink the world’s chronology enough to discredit Jesus as the sixth millennium Messiah, without accountability.
"
Here are the differences in ages between the LXX=Septuagint c. 300 BC, MT=Masoretic c. 135 AD?, and SP=Peshita c. 150 AD.
Name LXX MT SP
Noah 500 500 500
Shem 100 100 100
Arphaxad 135 35 135
[Cainan] [130] – –
Shelah 130 30 130
Eber 134 34 134
Peleg 130 30 130
Reu 132 32 132
Serug 130 30 130
Nahor 79 29 79
Terah 70 70 70
Flood to Terah's first born Sum: 1070 292 940
_Brigit first informed me of the differences in Flood dates of the two versions. At this post https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum3/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&start=360#p3472 she said: "There are two different dates for the global deluge. The reason is that there are different numbers given in the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint, plus Josephus. I atm persuaded that the correct date of the Second Deluge of Gen 6 was +-3300 BC following the Septuagint and mentioned by Josephus."
_I don't know why she called Noah's Flood the Second Deluge, unless she accepts conventional dating of the Younger Dryas Flood at around 10,000 BC, which would make it the first. But Noah's Flood deposited basically all of the sedimentary rock strata on which the Ice Sheet formed and which Ice Sheet melted to yield the YD Flood. So the YD obviously had to come later and the Bible may have a clue for that, if I can find it back.
_On this page https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum3/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&start=705 she referenced Henry Smith's article at https://biblearchaeology.org/ titled "Methuselah’s Begetting Age in Genesis 5:25 ..."
_JP Michael then read it and said: "Thank you for bringing that article to my attention, Brigit. I am rather impressed by the detail of Mr. Smith's scholarship. I accept his evidence; 100% persuaded. MT chronology, as it pertains to Genesis 5 and 11, can go on the scrap heap, as can the evidence-free LXX inflation theory. MT chronology may still be relevant in other areas, but when it comes to Genesis 5 & 11, I think Mr. Smith's assertions are soundly backed up with solid reasoning and evidence. The LXX chronology is preferred. The Flood occurred in 3,300 BCE according to that textual tradition, and I now accept this date on reasonable grounds as the approximate time of that worldwide conflagration."
_I think he meant deluge, instead of conflagration, since the latter means destruction by fire. Actually, there may be evidence of conflagrations accompanying both Noah's and the YD Floods.
__In this article https://creation.com/biblical-age-of-the-earth the Septuagint indicates that the Flood probably occurred between 2972 & 3386 BC according to the LXXII Bible.

Oard chapter on Ice Age. 500 years warmth after Flood. Ice Sheet completed after 500 years. Most mammoths drowned in Flood before Ice Age. Small mammoths survived on Wrangle Island north of eastern Siberia till 4,000 BP?


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