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LK1 Sedimentation / Re: GM/Great Flood Critique
« on: January 07, 2020, 10:38:39 am »
Critique (from first post above)
Complete Geologic Column

AFRICA: BeniMellal (Morocco), Tunisian, Ghadames (Libya), WesternDesert (Egypt); EURASIA: Adana+Iskenderun (Syria), MoesianPlatform (Greece), Carpathian (E.Europe), Baltic, Yazd-Kerman-Tabas (Iran), OmanInterior, Farah+Helmand (Afghanistan), Jiuxi (NW.China), Yeniseiy-Khatanga (N.Siberia), Tarim+Manhal-Subel+Tung-t'in-YuanShul+Szechwan E.China); AUSTRALIA: Bonaparte (N.Australia); S.AMERICA: Bogata (Colombia); N.AMERICA: TampicoEmbayment (E.Mexico), Williston (NC.U.S.), BeaufortSea+Yukon-Porcupine (Yukon)

« on: November 28, 2019, 04:31:02 pm »
_The Electromagnetic Nature of Tornadic Supercell Thunderstorms
_TIDAL FORCE. what if [the cause of tides is] the electric force, where there is a concentration of positively charged plasma in the interplanetary medium, to which the negatively charged planets, and the Sun, are attracted? The first implication is that at least some of the "gravity" that keeps the planets in orbit is actually the electric force. (At the very least, gravity anomalies will trace back to fluctuations in electric fields.) The second implication is the surface of the Sun and the planets will get warped by the selective action of the electric force on the surfaces, producing tides. The third implication is that tidal forces flex the crusts of the planets, and the surface of the Sun, resulting in fluctuations in pressure at depth, and this drives electric currents at the boundaries between charged double-layers. So tidal forces are a source of heat, far beyond just the thermalization of crustal deformation. ...
_TORNADIC LEVITATION. In the EMHD model, the tornadic inflow is positively charged, and the surface of the Earth has an induced negative charge. This means that particulate matter from the surface that is getting blown in the wind will be negatively charged. Objects exposed to the tornadic inflow (such as people, cars, etc.) will be sandblasted with this particulate matter, and will therefore develop a net negative charge. The objects will then be attracted by the electric force to the positively charged air around them. Since there is more air above them than below them, the net force will be upward. And if the strongest positive charge in the storm is in the RFD, objects will be subjected to the most powerful uplifting force after the tornado passes.

_EVAPORITES, MEDITERRANEAN. Multiple layers of evaporites exist in the Mediterranean and Red Sea floors --
_"The Mediterranean, Dead and Red Seas are the most saline in the world. Drilling reveals that repeated complete evaporation deposited multiple layers of salt on the sea bottoms, even in the deepest areas. Each layer was due to the evaporation of the residual water left when priori-mars drew the water out of the Med and Red Seas, toward northern India."
_"the purpose for building the pyramids in Egypt, the tells in the Levant and the ziggurats was to avoid the sudden floods caused by the capture of priori-Mars every thirty years. The low-lying areas along these courses, particularly in the Tigress and Euphrates valley remained inundated for months or years after each flood. During the encounters, the Mediterranean and Red Seas were almost completely emptied, and whatever residual water remained, evaporated during the fifteen year encounters. Evidence supporting this view comes from multiple layers of evaporites which cover the bottom of the Mediterranean and Red Seas. These layers are currently misdated and thus called the `Messinian Salinity Crisis' by geologists, who cannot imagine what caused many complete dessications of such a large body of water could occur by evaporation."
_ASIA HIGH TIDE MARK. "The most disruptive transient events for human cultures, particularly in the Mediterranean, the Middle East and the Indus Valley (where a large fraction of the ancient population lived), was tidal flooding at the time of the capture and release of priori-Mars. Its mass was about 0.16 times that of the Earth and its center approached to within 44,000 kilometers of the center of the Earth. As a result, it produced an enormous ocean tide, some 5000 feet high, which inundated northern India. Its altitude is recorded by a unique horizontally bedded layer called the Siwalik, containing the bones of animals, the habitats of which range from sea level to a mile high, in the foothills of the Himalayas.  These deposits exist because unlike the tides we experience today which sweep around the globe as it rotates, this tide remained fixed for fifteen years at a time. This high tide was formed by the drawing of water from the periphery of the hemisphere facing priori-Mars. As a result, the ocean depth was greatly reduced in a band which included the northeastern Atlantic between Iceland and the British Isles and the area of the Aleutian Islands, which would have facilitated human migration between continents. But the most significant areas were those of relatively large populations, such as the Mediterranean and Red Sea."
"H. G. Wells published an ancient map showing Northern India completely inundated while the Mediterranean is almost emptied. Tibetans claim that great lakes existed in the mountain basins as recently as 2500 years ago"
_ASIA MARS FOSSILS. "There is considerable controversy concerning the location of fossils in the geologic section in the Himalayas. I maintain innumerable fossils are present from animal and vegetable life which fell to Earth with the water from priori-Mars."
_MARS HEMISPHERES. "the northern plains of Mars are six kilometers lower than the rest of the planet."

ERROR: SEAFLOOR MAGNETIC STRIPES. "In ancient times, the Earth was thought to be like a bar magnet, with a frozen-in polarization of unknown origin. We now know from the study of magnetic striping moving away from mid-ocean ridges that the polarity flips every several hundred thousand years on average. So the field can only be generated dynamically, by the motion of charged particles." [The dating of reversals is wrong; they occurred every few minutes, not every few hundred millennia. See Distinti's article.]

Updates / MYTHS
« on: November 26, 2019, 12:05:56 pm »
On Saturn and the Flood (Immanuel Velikovsky)

The Jupiter Myth
by kauranos » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:19 pm
Hullo from newbie. John.
The Greek Antikythera mechanism for astronomy is a fact. The eclipse prediction calendar, a dial on the back of the mechanism includes a solar eclipse that happened May 12, 205 B.C. It used Babylonian maths not Greek trigonometry._ Smithsonian. By way of speculation: Egypt may have had telescopes.
The implications for the identification of glass production sites, for the organisation of trade and for the supply of natron within and outside Egypt are discussed in the light of Pliny’s accounts.

by kauranos » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:22 am
Antikythera may have been motivated ( not by DC) by Egypt's alleged telescopes which hypothetically were >20x mag.  The intense visible plumes of Io and Jupiter's corona may be what Pliny was on about. The eye of Horus , the red spot of Jupiter ?

Re: Ancient Technologies
by JP Michael » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:45 pm
The Antikythera mechanism may very well have accurately predicted eclipses and the like, but its apparent dating between 200 BCE and the shipwreck, 70-60 BCE, implies that it was utilised to observe the modern sky. It's bearing or usefulness regarding questions on the wild heavens of the recent past thus becomes suspect.
_It neither surprises me that Galileo Galilee observed electrical interaction between Jupiter and Io. Volcanism is an electrical phenomenon and to be expected on that moon, being as close as it is to the ex-brown dwarf star Jupiter. It may be that Jupiter (and Saturn, being the other prominent ex-star in our solar system) is still siphoning a small measure of electrical current from the galactic filament that is powering our sun, thus the resulting outbursts of volcanism on Io which is apparently unrelated to CMEs from the sun. That is a separate study in and of itself and I am not qualified to comment further. This is just an idea floating in my mind about Io's volcanism.
_Your quotation of Pliny is interesting, though, that Pliny knew to differentiate between terrestrial lightning and Jupiter's past interplanetary arc-plasma discharges. I think it is Homer's Illiad that said Zeus blasted Aphrodite (the moon) in the chest for attempting to interfere in Pallas-Athene's (Venus) celestial tiff with Ares (Mars). Kind of explains why our moon is a ghostly, scarred, electrically cratered and chasmed entity if that was indeed how the scene unfolded in the recent past.
_Mars' Olympus Mons and Valles Marineris might also be further evidence of direct contact between the Red Planet and Jupiter in the past. Ever since reading about the possibility of iron oxide (rusty, red dust) being a central component to Jupiter's Great Red Spot, it made me wonder if that was the precise location from which the arc of plasma shot forth from Jupiter to Mars in the past and electrically 'hoovered' vast quantities of magneto-charged Fe2O3 or Fe3O4 particulate from the Martian surface which has remained in that spiralling synchrotron of a storm ever since. Velikovsky's supposition of fights with Venus and/or Earth with Mars must also be considered in the overall reconstruction.
_I also disagree with the conclusion that the ancients required telescopes to perceive Jupiter's past polar plasma plumes. You are maintaining the false uniformitarian assumption that their skies were the same as our skies, a manifestly false a-priori. If this assumption were true, then you would be correct to suppose the ancients required telescopes to perceive Jupiter and its various phenomenon. There is significant evidence to the contrary, however:
1. Was much closer to the Earth in the past, so close that ancient art depicts Jupiter's patterns of equatorial banding.1 This was done without the use of telescopy.
2. Has an immense plasmasheath (jovesphere? as opposed to our sun's heliosphere) of its own. If you can locate Jupiter in the night sky tonight, place your hand over it and that is the approximate size of Jupiter's plasmasheath from a terrestrial perspective. If this plasmasheath had polar-oriented glow-mode tails (plasma plumes) on it, they would be visible from earth today without any need for a telescope. In fact, these plumes might somewhat resemble a squashed, thinner version of the Bali Thunderbolt image you posted above. How much more visible, then, would they have been in the past when Jupiter was much closer to the Earth?
_[1]I found it incredibly difficult to source the images of Jupiter's bands in ancient art. The best I could do was to screencap The Juptier Myth, part 2 @09:08. I do not know where Jno Cook sourced these ancient drawings from.
(at 9:08 / 24:06)

… by Lloyd » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:50 pm
I started a thread on my website on theories at . Below is how I'm starting it out. I may modify it eventually. If anyone has info or suggestions for collaboration etc, feel free to reply. I need to add one or more questions re Ancient Tech.

… by Lloyd » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:19 pm
John, kauranos, you should provide references, but I agree that those are good evidence. My impression is that there was very advanced civilization over 4,000 years ago, which produced the ancient maps shortly after the greatest cataclysms, but that later civilization lost a lot of tech, until the Renaissance.

by kauranos » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:34 am
Here we go: …

by Lloyd » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:01 pm
Thanks, John. Good job with listing your sources there (or I assume so, since I can't check them out easily). What do you think of the ancient maps that indicate that there was advanced tech much earlier, at the time of the Great Flood and other cataclysms, that allowed people then to make accurate maps before, during and after the ice sheets formed? Have you studied any of that?

Catastrophic Modelling Site
Sent: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:15 pm
From: JP Michael
To: Lloyd 
Hi Lloyd,
_I can help fill in some of the Creationist materials/questions if you require. I've been following many of the arguments of Oard/Baumgartner (to which I would also add Andrew Snelling and Steve Austin) and their RATE Project and Runaway Subduction catastrophist models for the last ~15 years.
_As far as I am aware, they utterly resent and abhor any and all theories that invoke celestial or planetary origins of terrestrial catastrophism. Their a-priori reticence is clearly crystalised in the creationist Genesis commentary of Dr. Jonathan Sarfati:
_“Bible based flood models should be deep-first, not heaven first... I accept as legitimate only those models that follow Scripture in teaching that the Flood began with a disturbance in the ocean, and reject those that have a first cause in the sky.” (The Genesis Account, p. 530)
_That this is a catastrophic error in current creationist thinking is manifest and I am currently compiling evidence to collate into a book to specfically address this untenable uniformitarian assumption regarding the skies of the ancient past.
_Let me know if you need anything. Many hands makes light work, afterall!

Sent: Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:59 am
From: Lloyd
To: JP Michael 
Hi JP. Be glad to work with you. Many Creationists are likely to remain disinterested in mythology, since they tend to believe that the Bible is God's word while other myths are man's word. Mythology shows that the "Great Deep" referred to the sky, not the oceans, but the Creationists seem unlikely to consider that possibility. I haven't looked into what the original Hebrew terms were for the "Fountains of the Great Deep", have you? Maybe that would have some good clues. Do you use the site? I used it some years ago for a while.

Sent: Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:40 pm
From: JP Michael
To: Lloyd 
Hi Lloyd,
_I quite agree that there is resistance to utilise mythological sources as reliable history amongst Creationists. As a creationist myself, this is one of the barriers I've had to overcome in my own thinking and it was not easy.
_Whilst I won't renege on my commitment to the Scriptures as the Living God's authoritative word, I believe there are many portions of it, particularly early portions, that have been routinely misinterpreted due to uniformitarian cosmology (let alone uniformitarian geology, but creationists are usually decent with catastrophist geology). For example, Genesis 1:14 says there were two 'great lights' in the ancient sky. These lights are never identified as the sun and the moon. That is an interpretation foistered on the text from observations of the current sky by all past and present Biblical interpreters.
_I have training in Biblical languages so I can actually comment further here. Mention of the 'sun' (shamash) does not occur until Gen 15:12, and the moon (yareach) until Gen 37:9, and in both cases translating them "Saturn" and "Crescent" (following David Talbott's The Saturn Myth, pp.276-280) respectively does little violence to the text, but much violence to the imposition of the modern sky upon the ancients'. Gen 15:12 is especially interesting, because the verb used there, also in 15:17, bo, means to come or come out, or emerge. It literally says in v.12, "It came to pass as shamash (Saturn) was emerging..." and v.17, "When shamash had emerged...". This is exactly in line with Talbott's thesis that ancient Saturn, being fixed in its place at the polar North as it was, "came out/appeared/emerged" at night and "went back/disappeared" during the daytime. A similar phenomenon exists today: compare the brightness of the moon seen during the day, and then compare it to the night (a phenomenon best noticed when moonrise occurs in the hours before sunset so one may watch the moon's 'emerging' brightness). The moon always appears brighter at night, it "comes out" (in brightness) at night, the same way Polestar Saturn did as recorded accurately and faithfully in Genesis 15.
_Notice English translations say, "When the sun had set," because they're forcing the modern sky on Abraham's and changing the meaning of bo from come (appear) to set (go, disappear) simply because they've started with a faulty assumption about the ancient sky and have no recourse but to force interpretations of the modern sky back on the ancient text. I agree wholeheartedly with Talbott that the Hebrew word shamash came to be used to describe the current sun after the disappearance of Saturn from the sky, hence the perpetual confusion of the two. I surmise, with Velikovsky, that that departure occurred at the time of the Exodus. Thus, I believe Abraham and Joseph very much witnessed Saturn in their ancient sky, not our current sun. All references to shamash after the Exodus of the Hebrews refer to the current sun, not Saturn.
_I think that the deep (Hebrew: tehom; Greek abysos) of Gen 1:2 is space, as you say. This same word is used of the fountains of the great deep in Gen 7:11 speaking of the flood (mayanot tehom rabbah: literally gushing fountains of the great deep). I find it significant that the term 'gushing fountains' is etymogically related to the Hebrew word for eye (ayin), sharing exactly the same root. I believe that the Hebrew language preserves in much of its etymology/roots and word associations fragments of memory of the ancient Saturnian configuration. Why are the words for 'spring' and 'eye' the same (ayin)? Mayanah, the singular form of mayanot of Gen 7:11, is a causative form of the same root: springs caused to gush, or fountains. What have these to do with eyes? I believe the association is because the eye, with its fountain of water (tears), was reminiscent to the Eye of Heaven configuration, with its fountains of waters that destroyed the world in the Deluge.
_In terms of resources, I find Jeff Benner's Ancient Hebrew Lexicon one of the best etymological resources available for such studies. Not only does he break down each word in its original ancient Hebrew root, he gives the most mechanical/concrete translations for them. Abstract thought is non-existent in ancient Hebrew and all Hebrew words have concrete meanings. The word tehom (#8415) is actually derived from a family of similar words related to the verb hom, roaring, wild and tumultuous, loud noise, destruction. Even the 'window' in 7:11 (arubbah, #699) is a chimney by which smoke can exit a place. The 'chimneys of heaven' sounds awfully similar to a column of interplanetary plasma carrying an abundance of water from Saturn to Earth at the time of the Deluge. Notice that the word for 'window' (chimney) in Gen 7:11 & 8:2 is a different word to the 'window' Noah opened in the ark (chalon, Gen 8:6, #2474, a word that has to do with the twisting, or boring, of an implement to make a hole in something).
_I also use E-Sword as a personal Bible app on my laptop (iPhone edition also available) simply because it is free (although I do donate) and it has all the essential resources I need to undertake my Biblical studies. I also do not need to depend on a website to make notes. Additional resources, such as specialist grammars, lexicon of the Septuagint, Louw-Nida's Semantic Lexicon for the New Testament, and so-on, I have in my personal library or via various smartphone apps.
_I'm not even scratching the surface when it comes to the preservation of concepts of the ancient sky preserved down the millenia in the Hebrew language. The ancient Hebrew letters themselves originate from an assortment of celestial imagery, both of the Saturnian configuration and also arc-mode plasmas that were all present in the sky at the time, but that is another thesis I am currently working on in my very limited free time and may, in a few years, find the light of day in a printed book.
_Sorry for this essay, but it feels good to talk about such things with someone who understands the issues at hand rather than dismissing them without critical analysis like most of the theologians and creationists I talk to.

Sent: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:18 pm
From: Lloyd
To: JP Michael 
Hi JP. What does JP stand for? It's fun talking to you too.
I learned from that there are a lot of different meanings for each word in Hebrew. But I haven't studied Hebrew or Biblical Greek etc in detail, as you apparently have. What you have stated about some Hebrew words is very interesting and I'm sure some of the Thunderbolts team would be interested in discussing or collaborating with you, if you like. I worked with the team a little about ten years ago, but not a lot. I mostly just write independently on their Forum. I met Charles Chandler there in about 2011 and find his work on the electric universe to be far superior to that of Thornhill or Don Scott et al. He was developing his model at that time and has completed it pretty thoroughly since about 2014, though he continues to improve it. I tried to get the Thunderbolts people to have a friendly debate with Charles to improve the electric universe model, but they weren't interested. So I lost some respect for them. Charles' model is at
_Mike Fischer is somewhat of a Creationist, I think, but is open to other models. He has an excellent website at where he shows that the continents were formed when a supercontinent was struck by a large asteroid that split it up, causing rapid continental drift a few thousand years ago. John Baumgartner's article on Noah's Flood is also excellent IMO, but his explanation of continental drift is very inferior to Mike Fischer's. John's model has Earth's entire mantle churning to move the continents apart, but Mike's has just the crust moving, i.e. sliding, over the Moho layer in the crust.
_I'd like to share a lot of our discussion on the forum. Would you like me to start a new thread for a discussion there? Maybe it should be on the comparison of catastrophist models, like I started discussing on the Ancient Technologies thread. Maybe we can write a book together, or we can help each other write separate books.

Updates / Re: NEW UPDATES
« on: October 10, 2019, 07:04:35 pm »
Fossil Bed, Japan
Hadrosaurs and Turtles
29 Sep 2019
At ... Robert forwarded this interesting post - another mass kill event with an out of place dinosaur. Each time a fossilised creature with legs is found mixed up with fossil marine life there is a quandary. When the same situation repeats itself several times over it becomes even more of a quandary. The author of the piece is referring to the discovery of a new and relatively complete skeleton of a hadrosaur that has been found in Japan (the so called duck billed dinosaur). It had teeth adapted to eating plants and walked on hind legs or on all fours - and is very similar to fossils of hadrosaurs found in Russia, China and N America. One was found recently in Texas and is described as a marsh inhabiting dinosaur that munched on aquatic vegetation. Hence, its association with the ocean is not so surprising - see for example. However, the link is a Creationist web site and they presumably wish to make a link to Noah's Flood. This is because the fossil was found amongst mainly marine fossils. The researchers, uniformitarian in outlook, have said (among other things) the hadrosaur floated out to sea and subsequently became fossilised. If it was an inhabitant of an estuary and then that is quite possible from a gradualist perspective but one must wonder if both the marine life and the dinosaur (and any other terrestrial fossils in the cache) were overwhelmed by a tsunami wave rushing up a riverine estuary location and producing a mass of dead animals that were buried in sand and silt and subsequently fossilised. This situation is not impossible as scientists have suggested something similar for other fossil beds (with mixed marine and terrestrial animal life). One does not have to accept the idea of a universal flood as the agent of fossilisation as tsunami waves appear to be common occurrences in localities such as Japan. In fact, such an explanation removes any notion of a mystery.

Updates / Re: NEW UPDATES
« on: October 10, 2019, 06:56:54 pm »
Edom's Copper Industry.
22 Sep 2019
At ... a paper on the emergence of the kingdom of Edom in the Iron Age has been published in the open access journal PLOS ONE by an Israeli team of researchers - see ... It concerns excavations of copper mines in the Wadii Arabah and central Timna Valley locations. They advance the theory there was a sudden and rapid 'leap' in 'technological knowhow' and seek to understand how it came about. They propose a comparison to the 'punctuated equilibrium' model for evolutionary change characterised by long term stasis punctuated by shor lived episodes of rapid change. This idea was in stark contrast to the original evolutionary theory, a model of gradualist and constant change and update. In this instance, the sudden leap in technological innovation in Edom's copper mining industry was preceded by a long priod of established smelting techniques.
Vigilant readers may recognise another possibility - the arrival of new immigrants with a superior technology as we are talking about the period immediately following the end of the LB age (or even a technology that came into fashion in the dregs of the LB age and was carried on over into the early Iron Age). ONe might think in terms of Solomon - but more pertinently one might think of Ramses III who claims to have campaigned in Edom (and the only reason he might have done that was to renew Egyptian interest in the copper mines). Peter James made just this point in one of his papers and that was that Ramses III regained control of Edom and the Transjordan valley after the vicissitudes of the late dynasty 19 period. In other words, it might have been overrun by tribes from the desert (including Arabia). The campaign therefore can be seen to re-establish the Egyptian empire in the southern Levant - and the copper mines may have been an addition, not previously exploited by Egyptian technology. One might also bear in mind that at the end of the LB age the Levant was in upheaval, throwing people up from regions in Anatolia and the Aegean with technology foreign to Edom - and to Egypt. One should not jump to the conclusion it was a home grown innovative technology as it could equally have been introduced from abroad. Solomon, for example. was closely aligned with the Phoenicians, and sea peoples became an element in their population at the end of the LB age - and the same goes for peoples washed up in what became known as Philistia (SW Canaan). Significantlyh, the authors of the study see a possible correlation with Shoshenk I who also appears to have campaigned through the Transjordan valley (and therefore Wadi Arabah etc). They subscribe to the mainstream dating of Shoshenk , in the second half of the 10th century BC. In Peter James 'Centuries of Darkness' scheme Shoshenk I would have been active in the 9th century BC, somewhat later. It would be interesting to know what dates these innovations actually were introduced. For example, if Iron IIA is implicated and then no connection with Solomon is possible (in a revised chronology). If, on the other hand, the innovations are earlier than Iron IIA and then we have a variety of permutations.
The story is also at ... we have a slightly different slant, which begins by quoting Genesis 36:31 which says of Edom, they had ... 'kings who reigned in Edom before any Israelite king reigned.' The PLOS ONE paper says the kingdom of Edom flourished in the Arava Desert in the 12th and 11th centuries BC (much closer to Ramses III). They attribute the change in technology to Shoshenk I (or the aftermath of his campaign which in mainstream chronology is dated mid 10th century BC, an Egyptian excursus into Arabah (both Timna and Faynan).

Updates / Re: NEW UPDATES
« on: October 10, 2019, 06:49:26 pm »
Chicxulub Crater
13 Sep 2019
William sent in a couple of nice links to the following story - go to and ...which concerns the K/T impact that contributed to the extinction of the dinosaurs - and 75 per cent of life on Earth (an estimate). Rocks near the asteroid crater tell a story after being analysed by scientists. Geologists are saying that a mile high tsunami wave, wild fires, and the release of many tons of sulphur (blotting out the Sun and creating a nuclear winter scenario) came in the wake of the asteroid strike. The Chicxulub asteroid was around 6 miles wide. Within a minute it had bored a hole 100 miles wide on what is now the sea floor - creating a bubbling pit of molten rock and hot gases. The contents of that fiery cauldron shot into the sky, creating a large plume. Within further minutes the plume collapsed and solidified into rippling peaks of lava and rocky material. These peaks were then mothered my more rocks, along with traces of the scorched landscape, and charcoal.
The space rock most likely vapourised the surrounding land and sent ocean water rushing from the impact point at the speed of a jet aeroplane. Although many animals did die at the impact site it is evident that the mass extinction was caused by what happened in the atmosphere (gases such as sulphur). See also ... where we learn that in the Chicxulub crater geologist found that hundreds of feet of sediments built up rapidly - 130m in a single day. It ocurred on the scale of minutes and hours (and this is a geologist telling us). As the hours  passed a backwash of waves added more and more finely graded debris.See also ... evidence of all this comes from small pieces of charcoal embedded in rocks, jumbles of rocks brought in by the tsunami back flow and an absence of sulphur (denuded at impact and blown into the sky).

Updates / Re: NEW UPDATES
« on: October 09, 2019, 06:54:39 pm »
Volcanic Hot Spot, Australia
At .... a previously unknown 'Jurassic World' of about 100 ancient volcanoes buried deep in the Cooper-Eromanya Basin of central Australia, where oil and gas are produced (but at a somewhat lower level in the rocks), has been uncovered. The volcanism is said to date back 180 to 160 million years ago and is found underneath hundreds of feet of sedimentary rocks. In other words, lots of things have been happening since the volcanism. However, it seems that although volcanoes are usually associated with plate boundaries, on this ocassion they are not. Instead, a volcanic hot spot is being invoked and the volcanism is being compared to the Deccan Traps. See also ... which is written by a very mainstream thinking geologist who spent most of his career in the oil industry. The first link doesn't really get into the hot spot but this link does.
At ... where we have a big impact crater beneath Chesapeake Bay attributed in this news release to an asteroid strike - at 35 million years ago.

Updates / Re: NEW UPDATES
« on: October 09, 2019, 06:28:34 pm »
Asteroids and Meteors
… Gary sent in a link to ... it seems that scientists researching the Tamiami Formation in Florida came across a lot of fossilised clams - and tiny silica rich glass spheres up to 5mm in size, even inside the clam shells. They are thought to have got into the clams as they keep their mouths open and filter the sea water passing across them. These clams were clammed shut and were prised open in a lab. They were forged in heat (no wonder the clams pulled the shutters down) and they can be created by volcanoes and even by industrial processes. In this case there is no volcanic rock in the vicinity of the Tamiami Formation and human activity is discounted as the formation is prior to the Holocene. It is said to possibly go back as far as the Pliocene or Pleistocne, somewhere between 5 million years ago and 12,000 years ago. The researchers have drawn the conclusion that the most likely explanation is that an impact event was responsible. Or perhaps an atmospheric explosion. Something capable of ejecting lots of debris into the air.
   ... The glass spherules are, in effect, mini tektites - but therein lies a problem as uniformitarian geochronology insists the formation was lain down in a number of layers - and the fossilised clams were found in four different locations. The implication, in the gradualist model, is that there were four impact events - which seems a trifle unlikely. No doubt if a nearby volcanic source had been found they could point a finger at multiple eruptions - as volcanoes tend to blow at irregular intervals. In this case that is not possible and as Gary says, the evidence appears to be that the sedimentary layer was laid down quickly and in one go. This is itself unsurprising as impact events would involve a lot of sediment production - and this even occurs with big volcanoes. The researchers are of course trapped in the uniformitarian straightjacket and are forced to think in terms of more than one impact - at the same spot on earth.

Updates / Re: NEW UPDATES
« on: October 09, 2019, 06:04:56 pm »
The day the sea invaded the Sahara
10 Jul 2019
At ... in the Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History (summer of 2019) we have a paper based on an accumulation of 20 years of research in what is now the Sahara desert. It is set between 100 and 50 million years ago = the Late Cretaceous and the early Paleogene (on the geological ladder). It concerns what is described as a sea way and the blame is placed squarely on rising sea levels. It is an established fact of mainstream that the Cretaceous period was extremely warm as trees are known to have been growing near the North Pole. It is assumed the poles have not shifted - even though an asteroid crashed into the Yucatan at the K/T boundary. The easiest way to get trees growing at the current North Pole is to have the pole situated elsewhere in the Cretaceous - which gets rid of the problem of trees growing where it is darkness for six months of the year. A pole shift might even explain why the sea invaded what is now the Sahara - a redistribution of the geoid and its ocean water.
However, the article doesn't touch that possibility and works within the mainstream gradualist model - which one would expect they would. This is not an article about rocking the boat it is primarily a classification of the fossils found in the process of three separate expeditions to the Sahara (primarily with a focus on Mali). As it included a great number of marine animals the logical explanation is that the sea invaded the land - and as geologists and others think the Cretaceous was inordinately warm they have the perfect mechanism - global warming in the dinosaur era. In the modern world we have a self regulating atmospheric system that has evolved to shunt excess heat out into space. Did the atmosphere behave differently in the Cretaceous?
Three expeditions, mainly to Mali, in 1999, 2003 and 2008, looked at rock exposures in West Africa. Giant sea snakes and catfish were recorded (but gigantism was a feature of the late dinosaur era). Giant fish of various kinds, tropical invertebrate and long snouted crocodilians are mentioned, and various mammals and even mangrove forest (all buried in the rocks). The seaway is said to have changed in size and geography on several occasions - which may indicate different channels of water. However, the feature I found most striking is the fact the K/T boundary event is smack in the middle of the period in question. As such the impact could have created huge tsunami waves on the opposite side of the pond. In this instance, West Africa. Is the seaway a relic of uniformitarianism? Was the seaway, and its fossils, the result of massive tidal waves generated by the asteroid - or by pole shift (or any other factor)? Were the sedimentary layers at the K/T boundary event laid down quickly rather than over millions of years? By avoiding catastrophism mainstream loses out on a lot of out of the box thinking - and alternative explanations. Merely keeping the uniformitarian paradigm alive and kicking seems to be a primary motive of certain kinds of research. This is not the case with this article. The researchers are working within the geological model they have been bequeathed. This is no different to oil explorers working within the system to search for possible new sources of the black stuff. How the layers were laid down is neither here nor there as it doesn't affect the oil deposits, as such, or the fossil classification. They are simply there and that is all there is to it. However, if oil is produced by vegetation that has been super heated and by other processes one can get an even better picture of catastrophism in the rocks.
One problem for catastrophism and not for the mainstream position is the presence of mangrove forest in the rocks in central West Africa. Mangroves grow on the coast. Were they growing in Mali or had they been uproooted by a wall of water and transported to Mali?

Updates / Re: NEW UPDATES
« on: October 09, 2019, 05:54:46 pm »
Tilted Lakes
2 Oct 2019
Gary sent in this link to ... archaeologists claim that a range of mysterious man made stones submerged beneath the surface of Lake Constance, on the Swiss side, are 5000 years old. They have done some exploratory C14 dating, they say, and confirm (roughly so) that they were constructed around 3000BC (or thereabouts). Do they have a connection with the drowned pile dwelling on Swiss lakes? These were overwhelmed in a catastrophic manner - but it has been all quiet on this front in recent years (or at least as far as the UK is concerned). That is a trifle surprising as it has been recently confirmed that crannogs and lake dwellings in the UK go back as far as the Neolithic - and we even have a well known excavation of such a pile dwelling in the Fens. The archaeologists say the stones go back to the Neolithic period but it is not clear what they are. It has been suggested they might be cairns (a row of them) minus the earth (washed out by the lake waters). Basically, what is left is a pile of stones - and they stretch some distance as if following a former contour ...   [[See 2 Images.]]
   ... They are currently 15 feet below the surace of Lake Constance. Geologically, the stones rest on post glacial banded lake deposits and are situated above the underlying upper edge of a morraine (presumably dating back to the Late Glacial Maximum). A source described them as cairns which is interesting as in the UK earthen mounds sometimes contain a stone (megalithic) construct - such as the chamber at West Kennet. Cairns are usually a more solid type of structure with an outward facia of stones (big and small) without the earth cover. THe piles of stones appear to run parallel with the shoreline. Finally, we are told that lake dwellings may be much deeper under the water. They may exist out in the lake or they may have been eroded away by water action.
PS ... Velikovsky in 'Earth in Upheaval' mentioned lake dwellings (erected on wooden piles driven into the ground). Remains of them exist in Scandinavia, Germany, Switzerland and northern Italy he told us and at some point a 'high water' catastrophe occurred and the villages were overwhelmed and covered in sand and silt etc. They remained abandoned for centuries until rebuilt during the Bronze Age - until they were overwhelmed once again at the end of the LB period. Velikovsky's dating is well out of sync with modern dating. The book was published in 1955 but the research was carried out in the 1940s. Gams and Nordhagen made a survey of German and Swiss lakes (and fens) and they concluded that strong tectonic movements were involved. The lakes suddenly lost their horizontal position, one end often being tilted upwards - and the opposite end of the lake, downwards. The old strand line, they said, ran obliquely to the horizon. The water level of Lake Constance rose by 30 feet - and there is evidence of the lake tilting. The high water catastrophe, they proposed, was accompanied by climatic change. These shifts in climate are known to have occurred at the back end of the 4th millennium, mid to late 3rd milllennium, and towards the end of the 2nd millenniums BC.
Note ... Velikovsky's dates often go back prior to the development of C14 methodology and it is a fact that he favoured dates of 1500BC and the 8th century BC in order to comply with his timeline in 'Worlds in Collision'. Once C14 dating came in things changed and Velikovsky's 1500BC became 2300BC in the articles of Euan MacKie (and taken up subsequently by Moe Mandelkehr). The 1500BC date was derived from Biblical numbers and was never a purely archaeological or scientific date. In spite of this both side may be wrong if the stones go back as far as 3000BC - pushing it further back in time. We know there was considerable uplift in the Alps at that point in time as Oetzi was left stranded on top of the mountains and engulfed in a glacier as temperatures plummeted.

Updates / Re: UPDATES
« on: September 15, 2019, 08:53:40 am »

1. Goals
2. Letters
3. Falls of Blood from Venus
4. On the Orientation of Ancient Temples and Other Anomalies
5. When Was the Lunar Surface Last Molten?
6. Venus Before Exodus
7. Comets and the Bronze Age Collapse

1. Goals: 1. Popularize optimum scientific method & scholarship (See TB Forum).
a. Improve Mike Fischer's model.
b. Add 2 articles (Ancient Maps & Scientific Evidence) that support a date of just over 4k years ago for the Great Flood & Meteor Bombardment (See TB Forum) to correct Mike Fischer's date.
c. Add JB's article on Noah's Flood to prove that the Flood caused the geological column (seen in 24 or more basins) of 6 megasequences caused by an orbiting body, like the Moon, on a briefly elliptical orbit.
d. Add Creation article evidence that basins were formed by impacts before the Flood.
e. Add that the breakup of the Saturn system produced the meteors and dust that produced impacts and destroyed much of the biosphere (See Saturn Theory).
f. Add that the Moon and Mars were impacted at about the same time as Earth (Saturn Theory).
g. Add that the impacts caused electrical effects, including radioactivity, on Earth (See WB, TB and CC's Astrophysics).

Scientific Evidence for A Major World Catastrophe About 11,500 Years Ago: A Preliminary Selection [SIS C&C Review]


1.vein: lead (+fossil) --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Derbyshire, UK
2.cave: iron-oxide (+fossil) --- - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Gailenreuth, Germany
3.breccia: iron-ore (+fossil) ---  --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Kesslerloch, Switzerland
4.rock-fissures: iron-ore (+fossil) (up to 720 ft deep) -- --- --- --- --- --- --- Carniola, Austria
5.caves: ore cement (+fossil) ---  --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Wellington Valley, Australia
6.cave breccia: iron stain (+fossil) --- - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Tea Tree Cave, Queensland, Australia
7.drift sand & gravel: metal (+fossil) --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Turnham Green +Acton, Middlesex, UK (1800s)
8.iron-sand: iron patina/stain (+fossil) --- - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Vilyui, Siberia, Russia
9.glacial deposits: iron-oxide stain (+artifact) --- - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Nampa, Idaho, (late 1800s)
10.drift stones and sand grains: iron oxide stain ---  --- --- --- --- --- --- --- South Yorkshire +Wiltshire +Humberside, UK (=<15 ft thick)
11.drift gravels: manganous stain --- ---- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Radley, UK +other places around Abingdon, UK (formation of 'brief duration')
12.drift deposits: iron-oxide stain +gold +platinum +diamonds ---- --- --- --- --- France +Germany +Poland +western Russia +other European +near-eastern countries
13.drift: iron-oxide stain +manganese +copper +asphalt +oil --- -- --- --- --- --- Israel +Jordan
14.drift: gold flakes +platinum +lead +zinc +iron ore ---- --- --- --- --- --- --- Indiana +Michigan +Minnesota +Virginia +the Carolinas (sometimes at great depths occupying the uneven surfaces of the underlying bedrock)
15.drift: nickel +nearly pure copper pieces +metals --- -- --- --- --- --- --- --- Sudbury, Ontario
16.irony-clay deposits: copper pieces (one 3,000 lb) +good quality diamonds -- --- Ontario to Ohio
17.drift: diamonds (in silicate rocks associated with volcanism) --- - --- --- --- southern margins of Hudson Bay (where no recent volcanic activity has occurred)
18.loess: manganese nodules (Pisolites) --- --- --- -- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Northern China
19.loess: metal nodules --- -- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- other regions, China
20.loess: silica +heavy minerals +up to 20.26% aluminium +up to 7.80% iron --- --- Nebraska
21.drift gravel: manganese +cobalt +iron +lead +zinc +copper --- - --- --- --- --- mouth of Fraser River, British Columbia
22.fossil beds: immense banks +lenses of frozen volcanic dust +ejecta: fossil ---- Siberia +Alaska fossil beds
23.sea bed clays +muds: much oxidised ferric iron particles --- -- --- --- --- --- the Arctic
24.sea bed clays +muds: much manganese oxide - --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- White Sea +Barents Sea, Siberian coast
25.floor sediments: volcanic ash +much nickel +radium (both rare in sea water) --- Pacific Ocean
26.patchy young radioactive clays in much of the ocean floor:
much radioactive ferromanganese nodules +cobalt +nickel +copper +other heavy ores --- oceans
_Oceanographers concluded that the nickel and iron in sea floor deposits were of meteoric origin


Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
by Lloyd » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:45 pm
The Major Cataclysms Occurred Less Than 5,000 Years Ago

An article by C. Ginenthal about Ancient Maps shows that Antarctica was apparently largely ice-free 6,000 years ago, based on drill cores at the Ross ice shelf and probably other measurements. If it's true that it was ice-free at that time, I think this means the Shock Dynamics impact and rapid continental drift occurred shortly before that, like within years, because the Arctic lands and Antarctica moved toward the frigid poles due to the impact, and the ice sheets built up soon after. An ancient map also shows Greenland without its ice sheet.

The article is at:

_Here's the quoted portion:
"Not only do these cartographers say the map is accurate, but they point out that, during the 1957 to 1958 Geophysical Year, other teams of seismic scientists, like that of Paul Emile Victor, went into Antarctica and made soundings of the topography under the ice, and that these soundings confirmed the accuracy of the Oronteus Fineus map. Therefore, we have the Piri Re'is map of Antarctica confirmed as accurate by the U.S. Navy Hydrographic Office and the Norwegian-British-Swedish Expedition of 1949, and the Oronteus Fineus map of Antarctica confirmed as accurate by Strategic Air Command's map office and the International Geophysical Year teams of 1957 to 1958. These findings are further corroborated by other evidence. According to Hapgood: During the Byrd Expedition of 1947-1948, Dr. Jack Hough, then of the University of Illinois, took three cores from the bottom of the ocean off the Ross Sea, and these were dated by the ionium method of radioactive dating, of the Carnegie Institution in Washington, by Dr. W. D. Urry, ... one of those to develop this method. The cores showed alternations of types of sediments.... There was a coarse glacial sediment, as was to be expected, and fine sediments of semiglacial type, but there were also layers of finer sediments typical of temperate climates. [These were the sort ...] carried down by rivers from ice-free continents. Here was the first surprise, then. Temperate conditions had evidently prevailed in Antarctica in the not distant past. The sediment[s indicated that, no fewer than three times during the Pleistocene Epoch, a temperate climate had prevailed in the Ross Sea. Then, when this material was dated by Urry, it was revealed that the most recent temperate period had been very recent indeed. In fact, it ended only about 6,000 years ago. Hough wrote: "The log of core N-5 shows glacial marine sediment from the present to 6,000 years ago. From 6,000 to 15,000 years ago, the sediment is fine-grained, with the exception of one granule at about 12,000 years ago. This suggests an absence of ice from the area during that period, except for a stray iceberg 12,000 years ago." (19) This evidence is further corroborated by Reginald Daly, who informs us that "[carbon-14] dating has shown that Antarctica's ice is less than 6,000 years old. (Emphasis added.) [Arthur Holmes writes: `Algal remains dated at 6,000 BP [Before Present] have been found on the latest terminal moraines.'" (20) Thus, in addition to the accuracy of the Piri Re'is map and the Oronteus Fineus map of Antarctica, we have measurements from cores in the Ross Sea and from the last glacial deposits containing a temperate species of algae that also show that Antarctica was not covered by ice 6,000 years ago. The evidence indicates that the Piri Re'is and Oronteus Fineus maps of Antarctica, published in the 16th century, are accurate and authentic representations of the continent as has been confirmed by scientists in the fields of seismic soundings and cartography. This shows that Antarctica was largely ice-free 6,000 years ago and is corroborated by evidence of cores from the Ross Sea and by the dating of algae in terminal moraines. The only way that such accurate maps could have been made prior to the 16th century is if Antarctica was not buried under thousands of feet of ice, when its climate had to be tremendously different."
_End of quote.
(Note: I assume that the object found at "12,000" years ago was not from an iceberg and the sediment dated older than 6,000BP was not older than that. See below.)

Mike Fischer of proposed that the Shock Dynamics impact event (in which an asteroid from 33 to 78 miles in diameter struck the former supercontinent, Pangaea, north of Madagascar, and caused the continents to split off rapidly to their present locations) occurred shortly before the time of the Younger Dryas impact maybe 11,000 years ago, though he said privately that it could have occurred as recently as 4200 years ago. So if Antarctica was ice-free less than 6,000 years ago, the Shock Dynamics event must have occurred shortly before that. And the Younger Dryas impact must have occurred about the same time, i.e. less than 6,000 years ago.

I've since read Melvyn Cook's article, Earth Tectonics Viewed from Rock Mechanics at:
_Here's the relevant part.
"Dating the Rupture of Pangaea, Continental Drift, and the EGRR [Earth-girdling rift and ridges]
Farrand and Gajda determined, by the equilibrium radiocarbon method [10] that the beginning of the 'uplifts' in Canada occurred 7,500 to 10,500 years ago (8700 +/- 765 years before present: this date is the average value read from the 'isobases' surrounding Hudson Bay, the maxima for these uplifts). To obtain this result they used the equilibrium radiocarbon values of Libby [33] who at first found a value of 0.78 for C14/C.o14 [C14 is the biospheric radiocarbon concentration and C.o14 is the expected value based on the known intensity of galactic cosmic rays. Libby interpreted the difference simply as lost radiocarbon. In 1963, Lingenfelter [34] of the Libby school reduced this value to 0.73 and in 1964 he and Flamm [35] found a still lower value of 0.675. If Farrand and Gajda had used the 1964 result, the maximum equilibrium radiocarbon date for the uplifts in northeastern Canada would have been 7550 +/- 655 years BP. However, this date would have been only 4740 years BP if they had used the 1964 result and interpreted it, not by the equilibrium radiocarbon method, but by the non-equilibrium radiocarbon dating model [36], dictated by the actual observations of 1964 without assuming C14 loss from the atmosphere and oceans. Heiskanen and Vening-Meinesz studied the uplifts in Fennoscandia [11] by the observed gravity anomaly, which they found obeys the same exponential decay law as radioactivity. They found for the uplifts in the Bay of Bothnia ... [that] The beginning of the uplifts was ... about 4300 years before the date of their investigation, or about 4345 BP."
_End of quote.
Note: the uplifts began when the ice caps were removed.

The reason I said above that the sediments below the less than 6,000 year old sediments were not older than that is because the sediments must have mostly all been deposited at about the same time, as I explained in this thread 2 years ago at in a post I titled: Sedimentary Rock Strata Prove Catastrophism.

There I said: "Re: Sedimentary Rock Strata: What brief explanation is there for the fact that sedimentary rock strata covering large continental areas are generally sorted into different rock types, i.e. esp. sandstones, claystones, and limestones? I.e., assuming that millions to billions of years of erosion and deposition occurred, how was it possible for only one rock type to be deposited over large areas for thousands of years, followed by thousands of years of another rock type, etc? The only plausible means I know of for separation of strata into such individual rock types is by major flooding over short time spans, as demonstrated by Guy Berthault. The geologic column is said to consist of 6 megasequences worldwide, each containing many conforming sedimentary strata, and each megasequence occurring over an unconformity. The best explanation seems to be that each megasequence was deposited during major flooding over a short time span of days or weeks. Since the unconformities between the megasequences seem to show mainly only sheet eroision, there must have been only short time spans of days, weeks or months between each megasequence deposit."

Early in this thread I showed evidence that major cataclysms occurred about 4240 years ago, including a Great Flood. The Shock Dynamics event seems to have been the cause of the flood and of rapid continental drift and of mountain building and most fossil formation and extinctions and it now appears that the best evidence is that it occurred less than 5,000 years ago and the Younger Dryas event occurred after that. Only one large asteroid caused the Shock Dynamics Pangaea splitting event etc, but that asteroid was accompanied by numerous other objects, many of which also struck the Earth and the Moon at that time, maybe over a period of centuries. And the Ancient Maps article by Ginenthal above suggests that civilization was highly advanced before the event and for some time after.

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
by moses » Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:55 pm
I am pretty sure now that all those 10,000 BC, or so, datings are in error and should be around 4,000 BC. This is because of Noah's flood event which introduced a large amount of carbon to Earth and changed from a 360 day year to the 365.24 year commemorated in the Great Pyramid.

Thus Gobekli Tepe would then be just before the Sumerian civilisation and things make a lot more sense.
Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
by Lloyd » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:58 pm
Thanks, Mo. Yes, Gobekli Tepi makes more sense at just over 4,000 years ago because of familiar astrological symbols used there, I think, which may refer to a date. As for the Flood event adding C14 to the Earth, can you provide any authoritative references for that? Maybe I'll have time to look for info on that before long myself.

By the way, I think the mythological evidence etc for the Saturn Theory is also something that needs to be incorporated into the ancient global cataclysm model. Maybe it will help us identify the source of the meteor stream/s etc that caused the cataclysms. Maybe the unusual minerals mentioned in one article came from the meteor stream or one of the planets of the polar configuration. I'll check out the relevant article I just read lately real quick.

Maybe this article: "Scientific Evidence for A Major World Catastrophe About 11,500 Years Ago: A Preliminary Selection D S Allan" at:

And this article: "The Flood" at:

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm
by Lloyd » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:20 pm
The first article I listed in the previous post is the one with the info about minerals. Following is a quote.

"The Metal Factor
Especially noteworthy are the numerous instances of 'drift'-age animals and plants found agglutinated by, embedded within, or unexpectedly associated with, certain ores. Examples include a nearly complete rhinoceros skeleton entombed in a vein of lead in Derbyshire [35], thousands of agglutinated bones in a cave at Gailenreuth, Germany [36], many more cemented together in red iron-oxide stained breccia at Kesslerloch, Switzerland [37], those within nearly pure iron-ore infilling rock-fissures descending to 720 ft [220m below ground level in Carniola, Austria [38] and ore-agglutinated masses of bones occupying cave after cave in Australia's Wellington Valley [39]. Many cave breccias are strongly ferruginised. That of Tea Tree Cave in Queensland is an outstanding example [40]. Animals remains from 'drift'-age sands and gravel also often exhibit external metalliferous staining. Typical examples were the mammoth and other mammal bones found at Turnham Green and Acton, Middlesex, last century 'loaded with manganous oxide' [41]. Molluscs possessing a pronounced ferruginous patina occurred in blue-grey iron-sand overlying the celebrated frozen rhinoceros carcass of Vilyui in Siberia [42]. Even a small soapstone idol exhumed from 'glacial' deposits over 280 feet (86m.) below ground level at Nampa, Idaho, late last century was found invested with reddish iron oxide [43]. At many localities the stones and sand grains constituting much of the 'drift' itself have been similarly ferruginised."

Numerous examples of metal or mineral staining or contents in the "drift" is mentioned in addition to the above. The paragraph after that says "loess" also contains such things and appears to have originated at the same time as the drift etc. Drift is defined as: "In geology, drift is the name for all material of glacial origin found anywhere on land or at sea, including sediment and large rocks (glacial erratic). Glacial origin refers to erosion, transportation and deposition by glaciers." Loess is defined as: "Loess, an unstratified, geologically recent deposit of silty or loamy material that is usually buff or yellowish brown in colour and is chiefly deposited by the wind. Loess is a sedimentary deposit composed largely of silt-size grains that are loosely cemented by calcium carbonate."

Charles Ginenthal had another article about so-called glacial deposits actually being flood deposits, often over a fractured ice sheet, if I understood him correctly.

So I hope to come to understand better how the staining etc came about in the drift and loess etc.

LK2 Fossils & Dating / UPDATE/C14
« on: May 27, 2019, 12:42:25 pm »

1. SIS
C14 plateau affects Stonehenge dating
14 Dec 2012
Mike Parker-Pearson, on page 344 of his 2012 book, Stonehenge, says that when all sorts of things were going on, between 2470 and 2280BC, we are unable to precisely date the sequence of events as the calibration curve flattens out at this point in time. It is more or less impossible to get a single date any more precise than the broad 190 year plateau. We cannot be certain of the order in which things happened. Right on the button, somewhere within this plateau, is the low growth tree ring event Mike Baillie dates to 2345BC - central in the thrust of the series of SIS articles we have published by the late Moe Mandelkehr.
However, two events are associated elsewhere with the end of the Early Bronze Age in Sumeria, Egypt and the Levant, separated by around 150 to 200 years. In i) Sumeria = end of Early Dynastic III and end of Akkad, and ii) in Egypt end of dynasty 5 and dynasty 6, and iii) in the Levant end of Early Bronze III and IV. In Britain the C14 plateau is marked by the end of the Neolithic era, followed by the so called Copper Age, and again, followed by the Early Bronze Age (until around 1600BC). Now, looking at Stonehenge we might ask ourselves - is the plateau in C14 levels (an increase or a double increase episodes) as a result of two events. Why do plateaus in C14 appear to congregate near anomalous events such as narrow growth tree ring clusters? This is especially noticeable at i) the Younger Dryas boundary event, 13,000 years ago, the end of the Ice Age, anywhere between 18,000 and 15,000 years ago, and iii) the mass die off event somewhere between 40,000 and 30,000 years ago. This plateau is so big nothing prior to it can be dated by the C14 methodology. It would actually be useful to have a catalogue of C14 plateaus as they persisted right through the Holocene period. For instance, around 800BC, and C14 dates in the Late Roman period have thrown up several archaeological inconsistencies etc.


2. ENYART (from File: EnyartDat)


.2/19/16) 10:22AM)
Bob Enyart Live

(First part here is duplicate of BE/RAPID FORMATION)
RSR's List of Not So Old Things
Date: Jan 24, 2014 Length: 28:20

Real Science Radio hosts Bob Enyart and Fred Williams observe their annual tradition by updating their growing list of scientific observations that challenge those who claim that the earth is millions of years old. Many of these scientific finds demand a re-evaluation of supposed billion-year ages.
- Man's Genetic Diversity in 200 Generations,
- Opals Form in Months, 
- C-14 Everywhere
See also Dr. Jonathan Sarfati's great article, How Old is the Earth? and RSR's very own!

* Wet Sand Hardens into Stone in Hours: Rather than taking geologic ages, here are three methods of rapidly turning sediments rock hard:
- water and common soil bacteria, in a couple hours, turn "soft sand" into "something resembling marble more than sandstone", according to scientists at Murdoch University who have gone from lab experiments to the marketplace where they spray bacteria-laden water onto sand for landowners who want to prevent erosion. See RSR's Oops show, Science Alert, and Creation magazine's Speedy Stone article.
- vibration, forcing the water out of mud and causing the grains to settle into an extremely rock-hard material
- plain water, sprayed on soft limestone (as miners do in Australia) to turn it into hard rock.
If you are aware of documentation for these last two methods of forming rapid rocks, which were related to RSR by our listeners, please email any documentation to us. Thanks!

mudstone deposit* One Half of the Earth's Sedimentary Layers Given the Green Light to Speed: A paper in the journal Science has documented experimental (and common sense) evidence that refutes a fundamental uniformitarian claim that had persisted for many decades. Mudstone, secular geologists believed, had to be deposited slowly over long ages because particles of mud cannot settle, they claimed, out of fast running water but, they believed, required long ages to precipitate out of still waters. That claim, evidently false on its face but uncritically accepted because it appeared to falsify the Bible's chronology, has now been refuted as published in one of the world's most prestigious journals.

The Heart Mountain Detachment: in Wyoming just east of Yellowstone, this mountain did not break apart slowly by uniformitarian processes but in only about half-an-hour as widely reported including in the evolutionist, "Land Speed Record: Mountain Moves 62 Miles in 30 Minutes." The evidence indicates that this mountain of rock covering 425 square miles rapidly broke into 50 pieces and slid apart over an area of more than 1,300 square miles in a biblical, not a "geological," timeframe.

Opals Can Form in "A Few Months" And Don't Need 100,000 Years: A leading authority on opals, Allan W. Eckert, observed that, "scientific papers and textbooks have told that the process of opal formation requires tens of thousands of years, perhaps hundreds of thousands... Not true." A 2011 peer-reviewed paper in a geology journal from Australia, where almost all the world's opal is found, reported on the "new timetable for opal formation involving weeks to a few months and not the hundreds of thousands of years envisaged by the conventional weathering model." More knowledgeable scientists resist the uncritical, group-think insistence on false super-slow formation rates.... Regarding opals, Darwinian bias led geologists to long ignore possible quick action, as from microbes, as a possible explanation for these mineraloids. For both in nature and in the lab, opals form rapidly, not even in 10,000 years, but in weeks.
(What also form rapidly are: manganese nodules, gold veins, stone, petroleum, canyons and gullies, and even gut fossils, all below)

Gold Precipitates in Veins in Less than a Second: After geologists submitted for decades to the assumption that each layer of gold would deposit at the alleged super slow rates of geologic process, the journal Nature Geoscience reports that each layer of deposition can occur within a few tenths of a second. Meanwhile, at the Lihir gold deposit in Papua New Guinea, evolutionists assumed the more than 20 million ounces of gold in the Lihir reserve took millions of years to deposit, but as reported in the journal Science, geologists can now demonstrate that the deposit could have formed in thousands of years, or far more quickly!

Box Canyon, Idaho: Geologists now think Box Canyon in Idaho, USA, was carved by a catastrophic flood and not slowly over millions of years with 1) huge plunge pools formed by waterfalls; 2) the almost complete removal of large basalt boulders from the canyon; 3) an eroded notch on the plateau at the top of the canyon; and 4) water scour marks on the basalt plateau leading to the canyon. Scientists calculate that the flood was so large that it could have eroded the whole canyon in as little as 35 days. See the journal Science, Formation of Box Canyon, Idaho, by Megaflood.

Source of beer can claim: World Almanac documentary* Manganese Nodules Rapid Formation: Allegedly, as claimed at the Wikipedia entry from 2005 through 2014: "Nodule growth is one of the slowest of all geological phenomena – in the order of a centimeter over several million years." Wow, that would be slow! And a Texas A&M Marine Sciences technical slide presentation says, “They grow very slowly (mm/million years) and can be tens of millions of years old.” But according to a World Almanac documentary they have formed "around beer cans," said marine geologist Dr. John Yates in the 1997 video Universe Beneath the Sea: The Next Frontier. There are also reports of manganese nodules forming around ships sunk in the First World War. See more at at, at TOL, in the print edition of the Journal of Creation, and in this typical forum discussion with atheists (at the Chicago Cubs forum no less :).

--- (Above is duplicate of BE/RAPID FORMATION)
--- (The rest below is not duplicate)

2a. - Diamonds from Botswana carbon-14 dated at 55,000 years old mined from rock dated 2 billion years old
2a. - Mount St. Helens rock that should date as solidifying 30 years ago but dating 350,000 to 2.8 million years old
2a. - Geologists say Uganda lava is just thousands of years ago but it's radioactively dated at 773 million years old
And separately, as microbial action forms opals rapidly, is there a similar function with cell membrane chemistry [a]ffecting the formation of Dolomite.

Accelerator Mass Spectrometer* Carbon-14 Found Everywhere It's Not Supposed To Be: Carbon-14, C14, decays in only thousands of years and therefore cannot last for millions. Thus evolutionists did not expect to find C-14 EVERYWHERE it shouldn't be if the earth were old (Answers 2011). Carbon-14 is found in petrified wood, coal, oil, limestone, graphite, natural gas, marble, deep ground water, dinosaur fossils, and even in supposedly billion-year-old diamonds! A secondary assumption by old-earth scientists proposes that the C-14 in diamonds (coal, etc.) must have come from C-13 and neutron capture. However, first, radio activity is concentrated in continental rock (see RSR Prediction below), and secondly, relatively speaking, radioactivity is relatively scar[c]e even in the continental crust, at least as documented by this U.S.G.S. report for enormous swatches of land. Thirdly, a geologist with a degree from Colorado's School of Mines who has a background in nuclear physics (who also spent years bombarding various elements with neutrons to make isotopes for industry), explained to RSR that Carbon does not easily absorb neutrons because it is the heavier elements beginning with Sodium that readily capture neutrons. Further, while it is possible but extremely unlikely that a Carbon atom will capture a free neutron, industrial processes use Carbon to slow down neutrons, whereas they use heavier elements, typically starting with Silicon, which is almost double the atomic weight of Carbon, for neutron capture. Consider also, as Dr. Paul Giem writes, that "since nitrogen-14 captures neutrons 110,000 times more easily than does carbon-13," samples with even tiny amounts of nitrogen would dramatically increase carbon dates, such that, "If neutron capture is a significant source of carbon-14 in a given sample, radiocarbon dates should vary wildly with the nitrogen content of the sample." Giem adds, "I know of no such data." And recognizing that U.S.G.S report of scarce crustal radioactivity for coal, basalt, shales, granite, fly ash, etc., Dr. Jonathan Sarfati builds upon Dr. Giem's research arguing that neutron capture could account for less than one 10,000th of the C-14 in diamonds (see these peer-reviewed calculations). See more at

* Helium Found Everywhere It's Not Supposed to Be: By the evolutionary time frame, zircon crystals should not have loads of helium in them, but they do. The periodic table shows helium to be an ultralight element. As even birthday balloons suggest, because its atom is so tiny helium easily escapes from virtually any enclosures, especially natural ones, including from crystals! The crystal lattice is large compared to the size of the tiny helium atom and any movement from natural molecular vibrations, especially as increased by temperature variations, will result in helium escaping any confinement. Empirical laboratory experiments confirm this obvious physical reality. Continental crust contains uranium, and uranium has a super slow half-life and its decay chain produces helium. The above facts enable us to test a huge assumption made by old-earth geologists, namely, That zircons, which also contain radioactive uranium, are a billion years old. :) If Real Science Radio on the periodic tablezircons were that old, and if uranium always decayed slowly over hundreds of millions of years, then zircons should have almost no helium in them becuase it would have diffused out relatively quickly. However,  a Ph.D. geophysicist from Los Alamos Nat'l Labs and other physicists and scientists published a prediction of the rate of helium diffusion from zircons at various temperatures. A high-precision laboratory then measured actual diffusion rates which dramatically matched their predictions, which were based on a 6,000 year age of the zircons. Meanwhile, a prediction based on billion-year ages would be off by a factor of about 10,000. more...

Accelerator Mass Spectrometer* Even Faster Rocks: As listed in Dec, 2010 Creation Matters, radiometric dating by Rubidium-Strontium gives a 1.3 billion year age for lava atop the Grand Canyon which would be 300 million years older than the Precambrian basalt at the bottom of the canyon, as reported by Steven Austin, Ph.D. Also, the Potassium-Argon dating method incorrectly indicates that certain minerals hardened into stone 350,000 years ago, when in reality they solidified just recently, in 1986, from lava that flowed six years after the enormous 1980 Mount St. Helens eruption. And some of the mineral within the then ten-year old rock was wrongly dated as having solidified two million years earlier.

MORE: From Creation magazine as discussed on RSR:
2b. - Fossil wood from England dated at 25,000 years by carbon-14 embedded in allegedly 183-million year old limestone
2b. - Mammal hair found in supposedly 100 million year old amber looks surprisingly "similar" to... modern hair

European and Asian Honey Bee Can Still "Talk" to Each Other. A researcher decided to put the two together to see what would happen. They are still able to communicate, putting into doubt the evolutionary claim that they were separated for 7 million years. See the Public Library of Science.

In the Grand Canyon there is a limestone layer averaging seven feet thick that runs the 277 miles of the canyon (and beyond) that covers hundreds of square miles and contains an average of one nautiloid fossil per square meter. Along with many other dead creatures in this one particular layer, 15% of these nautiloids were killed and then fossilized standing on their heads. Yes, vertically. They were caught in such an intense and rapid catastrophic flow that gravity was not able to cause all of their dead carcasses to fall over on their sides. Famed Mount St. Helens geologist Steve Austin is also the world's leading expert on nautiloid fossils and has worked in the canyon and presented his findings to the park's rangers at the invitation of National Park Service officials. Austin points out, as is true of many of the world's mass fossil graveyards, that this enormous nautiloid deposition provides indisputable proof of the extremely rapid formation of a significant layer of limestone near the bottom of the canyon, a layer like the others we've been told about, that allegedly formed at the bottom of a calm and placid sea with slow and gradual sedimentation. But a million nautiloids, standing on their heads, literally, would beg to differ. At our sister stie, RSR provides the relevant Geologic Society of America abstract, links, and video.

*  Now It's Allegedly Two Million Year-Old Leaves: "When we started pulling leaves out of the soil, that was surreal, to know that it's millions of years old..." sur-re-al: adjective: a bizarre mix of fact and fantasy. In this case, the leaves are the facts. Earth scientists from Ohio State and the University of Minnesota say that wood and leaves they found in the Canadian Arctic are at least two million years old, and perhaps more than ten million years old, even though the leaves are just dry and crumbly and the wood still burns!

Check out these images among a dozen journal papers confirming dinosaur soft tissue* After the Soft Tissue Discoveries, NOW Dino DNA: Back in 2007 a North Carolina State University paleontologist took the Tyrannosaurus Rex photos to the right of original biological material. Now, in 2013, the dinosaur soft tissue discoveries include DNA, blood vessels, collagen, osteocytes, hemoglobin, red blood cells, and various proteins, as published in many leading scientific journals, including Nature, Science, PNAS, PLoS One, Bone, Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, which have published peer-reviewed papers confirming the discovery of original biological material and even of dinosaur soft tissue  from many dinosaurs and dinosaur-layer creatures including from T. Rex., hadrosaur, titanosaur, triceratops, Lufengosaur, mosasaur, and Archaeopteryx.
- See the web's most complete listing of these journal papers, with links and excerpts, at RSR's #research.

"150 Million" year-old Squid Ink Not Decomposed: This still-writable ink had dehydrated but had not decomposed! The British Geological Survey's Dr. Phil Wilby, who excavated the fossil, said, "It is difficult to imagine how you can have something as soft and sloppy as an ink sac fossilised in three dimensions, still black, and inside a rock that is 150 million years old." And the Daily Mail states that, "the black ink was of exactly the same structure as that of today’s version", just desiccated. And Wilby added, "Normally you would find only the hard parts like the shell and bones fossilised but... these creatures... can be dissected as if they are living animals, you can see the muscle fibres and cells. It is difficult to imagine... The structure is similar to ink from a modern squid so we can write with it..." Why is this difficult for evolutionists to imagine? Because as Dr. Carl Wieland writes, "Chemical structures 'fall apart' all by themselves over time due to the randomizing effects of molecular motion."

* "160 Million" year-old Cuttlefish "ink sacs somehow escaped decomposition": Yes. Somehow. In their May 2012 National Geographic article, Fossil Ink Sacs Yield Jurassic Pigment--A First, the NG editors report that the ink is "'strikingly' similar to that of modern cuttlefish". [But as RSR says, read this as "identical" to modern cuttlefish, similar to the multitude of examples documented by creation Dr. Carl Werner in his fabulous Living Fossils DVD.] RSR appreciates evolutionary scientist and ink study co-author, University of Virginia Prof. John D. Simon, for acknowledging that, "As far as we can tell by everything we've thrown at it, the [ancient] ink is indistinguishable from modern ink." Hopefully though, Dr. Simon will reconsider the mountain of evidence for a young earth. For only  then can he help his students understand how it is possible, as Nat'l Geographic reports, that "the Jurassic ink sacs somehow escaped decomposition, providing scientists with 'exceptional' soft tissue specimens." Exceptional. Yes!

Removed Yellowstone Petrified Tree Sign:
Rare School of Jellyfish Fossilized: Previously, seven sedimentary layers had been described as taking a million years to form. And because jellyfish have no skeleton, it is rare to find them among fossils. But now, reported in the journal Geology, a school of jellyfish fossils have been found throughout those same seven layers in central Wisconsin, showing that they were not deposited over a million years, but during a single event and quickly enough to trap a school of jellyfish. This fossil school, therefore, taken as a unit forms a polystrate fossil.
- Examples are everywhere that falsify the claims of strata deposition over millions of years and even though they rarely fossilize, there's another locale with jellyfish fossils in multiple layers, in the Brockman Iron Formation in northwestern Australia. (Evolution's Big Squeeze: Like galaxies evolving just too quickly, and galaxy clusters no less, jellyfish too have gotten into the act squeezing the evolution timeline, here by 200 million years when they were found in strata allegedly a half-a-billion years old, and other examples, ironically referred to as Medusoid Problematica, are even found in pre-Cambrian strata!)
- Likewise, see the 171 tadpoles, and the whale, separately, all fossilized in a polystrate way in diatom deposits. And then, remember all those whales buried in the desert in Chile? According to Dr. Nick Pyenson, "What's really interesting is that this didn't just happen once. It happened four times," said this Smithsonian Institution evolutionist. Why's that? Because "the fossil site has at least four layers", to which Real Science Radio's Bob Enyart replies: "Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha", with RSR co-host Fred Williams thoughtfully adding, "Ha ha!"

Polystrate Fossils: In a thousand locations including the Fossil Cliffs of Joggins, Nova Scotia, polystrate fossils such as trees span many strata. Not only should such fossils, generally, not exist, but polystrate trees, jellyfish, and whales, etc., typically show no evidence of erosion increasing with height. All of this powerfully disproves the claim that the layers were deposited slowly over millions of years.

Removed Yellowstone Petrified Tree Sign* Yellowstone Petrified Tree Sign Removed: The National Park Service removed their incorrect sign (see left). The NPS had claimed that in dozens of different strata over a 40-square mile area, many petrified trees were still standing where they had grown. The NPS eventually removed the sign partly because those petrified trees had no root systems at their bases, which they would have had if they had grown there. Instead, the trees of this "fossil forest" have roots that are abruptly broken off within two or three feet of the base of the tree trunks. If these mature trees actually had been remnants of sequential forests that had grown up in strata layer on top of strata layer, 27 times on Specimen Ridge (and 50 times at Specimen Creek), such a natural history may imply passage of more time than permitted by biblical chronology. No root systems on Yellowstone petrified trees shows they did NOT grow in place...Long before we adopted the Real Science Radio name, Bob Enyart broadcast a geology program about the catastrophic destruction of forests and the hydraulic transportation and upright deposition of trees. The chief ranger from Haleakala National Park on Hawaii's island of Maui, Mark Tanaka-Sanders, whom Bob had the honor of meeting (over dinner in Mark's home) corresponded with his colleagues at Yellowstone urging them to remove the sign, which they did. (See also AIG, CMI, and all the original Yellowstone exhibit photos.) Groundbreaking research conducted by creation geologist Dr. Steve Austin in Spirit Lake after the eruption of Mount St. Helens provided a modern-day analog to the formation of Yellowstone fossil forest. A steam blast from that volcano blew over tens of thousands of trees leaving them without attached roots. Many thousands of those trees were floating upright in Spirit Lake, and began sinking at varying rates into rapidly and sporadically deposited sediments. Once Yellowstone's successive forest interpretation was falsified (though like with junk DNA, it's too big to fail, so many atheists and others still cling to it), the erroneous sign was removed.

Surtsey Island, Iceland: Of the volcanic island that formed in 1963, New Scientist reported in 2007 about Surtsey that "geographers... marvel that canyons, gullies and other land features that typically take tens of thousands or millions of years to form were created in less than a decade." Yes. And Iceland's official geologist wrote in the months after Surtsey formed, "that the time scale," he had been trained "to attach to geological developments is misleading." For what is said to "take thousands of years... the same development may take a few weeks or even days here," including to form "a landscape... so varied and mature that it was almost beyond belief" with "wide sandy beaches and precipitous crags... gravel banks and lagoons, impressive cliffs… hollows, glens and soft undulating land... fractures and faultscarps, channels and screes… confounded by what met your eye... boulders worn by the surf, some of which were almost round..."

Genome "History" Contradicts Alleged Tree of Life: the chimpanzee Y chromosome and the genomes of  kangaroos, worms, and sponges [are also recent].

Fossil "Reefs":  As we report in our Real Science Radio program on modern reefs and alleged fossil "reefs" (, PhD geologist Andrew Snelling did a great job presenting the widespread secular, peer-reviewed journal conclusions that fossil reefs are not reefs at all, that they lack the reef framework of layers upon layers of skeletons, and that they cannot be explained by comparison to modern reefs. Rather, "fossil reefs" are typically jumbled and broken flood deposits which often lack widespread remains of the very creatures that form reefs. Likewise Dr. Tas Walker undermined the old-earth argument for paleosols (alleged ancient soil horizons which are actually pseudosols), which typically lack multiple diagnostic features including lacking evidence of roots, lacking expected layer horizons, and where relevant, lack the burned organic matter that would have been expected from overlying lava flows). And Dr. John Woodmorappe likewise undermined the old-earth argument regarding alleged paleokarsts (geologic column strata supposedly shaped by long exposure to surface erosion, a.k.a. pseudokarsts).

* Algae to Petroleum in Less than One Hour: Scientists at the U.S. Department of Energy’s Pacific Northwest National Laboratory have discovered a way of turning algae into crude oil. They begin with "algae and water, and have remarkably turned the mixture into a kind of crude oil in less than an hour. The crude oil is suitable to be turned into burnable gases like jet fuel, gasoline or diesel." See this in the must-read Creation magazine, and you may enjoy CMI's Oil Not Always a Fossil Fuel!

* Fossils with Protein, DNA and Bacteria: For years evolutionists ridiculed the greatest paleontological discovery in history, dinosaur soft tissue, in deference to their old-earth evolutionary assumptions. Now that original dinosaur tissue and even T. rex DNA has been found, the existence of biological material and even living bacteria in allegedly million-year-old specimens should be acknowledge[d] and re-assessed. As listed by Dr. Walt Brown…

- allegedly 17 million  year old magnolia leaf contains DNA (Scientific American 1993)
- allegedly 80 million year old hadrosaur and T. rex DNA (the Journal Bone, 2013)
- allegedly 120 million  year old insect fossil contains DNA  (Nature 1993)
- allegedly 200 million  year old fish fossil contains DNA (Science. News 1992)
- allegedly 30 million  year old bee fossil contains LIVING bacteria (Science 1995)
- allegedly 600 million  year old rock contains LIVING bacillus (Nature 2000).

* Initial Tests Show Mostly Left-Handed Amino Acids in Amber, Shale, Titanosaur & T. rex Eggshells, and Chert! Like hands and hockey sticks, some molecules are right or left handed. Life uses 100% left-handed amino acids to build proteins (and purely right-handed sugars to build DNA). The laws of chemistry demonstrate that after death, amino acids racemize back to a 50-50 mixture of right- and left-handed acids. England's Royal Society published a time range for this physical process which, "produces totally racemized amino acids in 10(5)-10(6) [100,000 to 1,000,000] years in most environments on the Earth." (So researchers have even begun dating whale carcasses by the spherical growth patterns in the eye by measuring the percent of left-handed acids in each lens layer.) Yet allegedly far older insects in amber yield mostly left-handed amino acids such that researchers shockingly suggest a half-life of a billion years for racemization in amber! See more at

Lizard "evovles" new gut in 37 years! :)* Lizard "Evolves" New Gut in 37 Years! A change in habitat forced a vegetarian diet upon Podarcis sicula lizards. The leafy diet in turn activated pre-existing genetic instructions that modified the digestive system in the offspring of seven lizards that had been transported to a nearby island in 1971. When existing genetic information suddently expresses itself, biased scientists, like the Darwin marketing reps at National Geographic, will attempt to trick folks who are not paying close attention into believing that mutation and natural selection created some new biological information. The NG headline reads, "Lizards Rapidly Evolve After Introduction to Island" and the article wrongly claims that, "They evolved an expanded gut [with cecal valves] to allow them to process these leaves... This was a brand-new structure." Once again the pop science press misrepresented the actual findings of a scientific paper. For other populations of related species, and of the exact same species, have the same structure! "These valves are similar in overall appearance and structure to those found in herbivorous lacertid, agamid, and iguanid lizards and are not found in other populations of P. sicula or in P. melisellensis."

2c. HUMANS: 6,000 YEARS
"6,000 year-old" Mitochondrial Eve: As the Bible calls "Eve... the mother of all living" (Gen. 3:20), genetic researchers have named the one woman from whom all humans have descended "Mitochondrial Eve." But in a scientific attempt to date her existence, they openly admit that they included chimpanzee DNA in their analysis in order to get what they viewed as a reasonably old date of 200,000 years ago (which is still surprisingly recent from their perspective, but old enough not to strain Darwinian theory too much). But then as widely reported including by Science magazine, when they dropped the chimp data and used only actual human mutation rates, that process determined that Eve lived only six thousand years ago! In Ann Gibbon's Science article, "Calibrating the Mitochondrial Clock," rather than again using circular reasoning by assuming their conclusion (that humans evolved from ape-like creatures), they performed their calculations using actual measured mutation rates. This peer-reviewed journal then reported that if these rates have been constant, "mitochondrial Eve… would be a mere 6000 years old." See also the journal Nature and's "A shrinking date for Eve," and Walt Brown's assessment. Expectedly though, evolutionists have found a way to reject their own unbiased finding (the conclusion contrary to their self-interest) by returning to their original method of using circular reasoning, as reported in the American Journal of Human Genetics, "calibrating against recent evidence for the divergence time of humans and chimpanzees,"  to reset their mitochondrial clock back to 200,000 years.

Most Human Mutations Arose in 200 Generations: From Adam until Real Science Radio, in only 200 generations! The journal Nature reports The Recent Origin of Most Human Protein-coding Variants. As summarized by geneticist co-author Joshua Akey, "Most of the mutations that we found arose in the last 200 generations or so" (the same number previously published by biblical creationists). Another 2012 paper, in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology (Eugenie Scott's own field) on High mitochondrial mutation rates, shows that one mitochondrial DNA mutation occurs every other generation, which, as creationists point out, indicates that mtEve would have lived about 200 generations ago. That's not so old!

2c. HUMANS: Under 6,000 YEARS
Even Younger Y-Chromosomal Adam: (Although he should be called, "Y-Chromosomal Noah.") While we inherit our mtDNA only from our mothers, only men have a Y chromosome. Based on documented mutation rates on and the extraordinary lack of mutational differences in this specifically male DNA, the Y-chromosomal Adam would have lived only a few thousand years ago! (He's significantly younger than mtEve because of the genetic bottleneck of the global flood.) Yet while the Darwinian camp wrongly claimed for decades that humans were 98% genetically similar to chimps, secular scientists today, using the same type of calculation only more accurately, have unintentionally documented that chimps are about as far genetically from what makes a human being a male, as mankind itself is from sponges! Geneticists have found now that sponges are 70% the same as humans genetically, and separately, that human and chimp Y chromosomes are  "horrendously" 30% different. (See also Why Was Canaan Cursed?)

* A Not So Old Tooth: This "Neanderthal tooth" was initially dated by the inaccurate "rock layer method" to tens of thousands of years old. Now, secular scientists have now used reliable scientific methods to date the tooth. Turns out that it belonged to someone who lived less than 5,000 years ago. (And of course, Neanderthal's were people too! It's just that "cavemen" didn't live all that long ago :)

* Calendars: Aside from the worldwide evidence that ancient cultures used a 360-day year (which fact itself points to the reality of the global flood), realize also that the great cultures of the world have calendars that begin not tens of thousands of years ago, but only a few thousand years ago, agreeing roughly speaking with the chronology of Genesis. For example:
- the Mayan calendar begins at 3114 B.C.
- the Jewish calendar begins 3761 B.C.
- the Chinese calendar begins with the (mythical?) Yellow Emperor at 2697 B.C.
- the Christian calendar that resets with the birth of Christ
- the reckoning of creation, by the chronologies of Isaac Newton, Johann Kepler, and Bishop Ussher, at ~4000 B.C.
- the Catholic reckoning of creation, in Pope Gregory's Roman Catholic Martyrology, of 5199 B.C.
- the biblical reckoning of creation, per the Septuagint (and by cometary reckoning) at about 5000 B.C.

* Tiny Diamonds that Seemingly Formed Almost Instantaneously: While their short-lived carbon-14 indicates that diamonds are not a billion years old, a University of Tennessee geologist presented findings at an annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union on a rock filled with tiny diamonds, stating, "It's like they formed instantaneously." Diamonds are also known to form virtually instantaneously in impact craters. The high pressure required to form diamonds has misled secularists to assume that most are formed in the Earth's mant[le] about 100 miles below the surface, and then transported over millions of years to the surface. In reality though, many diamonds were formed in the enormous pressures produced in the Earth's crust during the compression phase of the global flood. 

Scablands formed rapidly; case study reveals bias...* The Scablands: The primary surface features of the Scablands, which cover thousands of square miles of eastern Washington, were long believed to have formed gradually. Yet, against the determined claims of uniformitarian geologists, there is now overwhelming evidence as presented even in a NOVA TV program that the primary features of the Scablands formed rapidly from a catastrophic breach of Lake Missoula causing a massive regional flood. Of course evolutionary geologists still argue that the landscape was formed over tens of thousands of years, now by claiming there must have been a hundred Missoula floods. However, the evidence that there was Only One Lake Missoula Flood has been powerfully reinforced by a University of Colorado Ph.D. thesis. So the Scablands itself is no longer available to old-earthers as de facto evidence for the passage of millions of years.

UGC 12158 spiral galaxy* Spiral Galaxies: after their alleged billions of years the spiral arms of “pinwheel” galaxies should now be deformed, since as has been known for decades, the speed of the arms does not align with the galaxy centers, so there is “missing billions of years” of deformation in spiral galaxies. Atheistic astronomers have great difficulty even explaining where our own Moon came from, let alone our entire solar system and the entire universe. And just like Darwin's "Origin of Species" begins with species, the standard models of star formation begin with the explosion of preexisting stars or with star formation already underway. Astrophysicists even admit they can’t figure out which formed first, stars or galaxies, showing that their Big Bang hypothesis does not merit the absolute trust that millions put in it. Thus far from being able to explain how the universe could form apart from God, they are groping in the dark. See RSR 7-25-08 at KGOV.

* Transient Solar System Events: The many unexpected transient elements in our solar system including changes on the Moon's surface, changes in Saturn's rings (see below), and the lifespan of our short-period comets which last only thousands, and not millions, of years because of the significant percent of their mass burning off each time their orbit approaches perihelion, when they are nearest to the Sun.

* Transient Galactic Events: There are also transient galactic elements such as the extreme variability from 1987 till 1991 in one of the brightest objects in the gamma-ray sky, quasar 3C 279, which then faded from gamma-ray view!

NASA Supernova photo & story: "just a few thousand years ago" * Supernova Remnants: an explosion appeared in the night sky in 1054 A.D. as a supernova remnant (SNR) forming the Crab Nebula. Evolutionary scientists have measured and calculated the expected rate that stars would explode. However, if the universe is billions of years old, the vast majority of SNRs (like the Crab Nebula) that should exist, are missing! Instead, the number of SNRs corresponds well to the expected number if the universe is less than 10,000 years old, especially considering that astronomers have not found a single SNR at Stage 3 (a great diameter)! Of course, the lack of Stage 3 SNRs is consistent with the young universe. Listen to this Real Science Radio program at!

* The Missing Big Bang Shadow: The missing "shadow" of the Big Bang from behind nearby galaxies is a prediction of biblical creationism. Yet the Astrophysical Journal reported that no shadow was detected after averaging measurements from NASA data for 31 galaxy clusters. As a Huntsville, Alabama scientist Dr. Richard Lieu stated, "Either... the Big Bang is blown away or ... there is something else going on'." Other evidence consistent with a not-so-old universe includes connected galaxies, galaxy clusters, the missing gas and dust of intracluster medium (ICM) in globular clusters of hundreds of thousands of stars purportedly emitting matter from solar winds for billions of years, and nearby blue stars!

* Saturn’s Rings: Not evincing the stability suggested by their presumed 50 to 100 million year-old age, instead of showing their predicted stability, Saturn's rings have changed significantly since man’s first mappings, including the startling (to evolutionists) rapid approach of the inner-most ring toward the planet. See RSR 4-10-06 at KGOV.

* "Surprisingly Orderly" Star Clusters in Spiral Galaxies: The Big Bang model predicted that the bulge of stars in the center of spiral galaxies resulted from millions of years of collisions. But about the perfect orderliness of those stars, as reported in the New Scientist article, Galaxies too good to be true, Princeton University cosmologist Jim Peebles admitted that, "It's really an embarrassment." And cosmologist John Kormendy says that the pristine bulges "were something of a shock" and "look rather too perfect." To which RSR says :) and about which Spike Psarris created the greatest astronomy DVDs ever made, and thanks to Creation magazine for alerting RSR to this! Those who believe in naturalist origins are forever dismayed, shocked, and even call the latest discoveries "horrendous" because scientific observations typically contradict the fundamental predictions of atheistic origins. (One small example: Most animals reproduce sexually, yet Darwinism would never predict sexual reproduction.)

* 9 Billion Years of Missing Metal in Spiral Galaxies: Some people don't like heavy metal, but who would have chucked nine billion years worth? Fifteen entire galaxies studied contradict the standard model of star and galaxy formation which claims that as billions of years pass during star evolution, they're supposed to create way more heavier metals than these trillion or so stars possess. See this at

* Earth's Magnetic Field Rapid Decay: As summarized by University of Maryland geophysicist Daniel Lathrop, “In particular, over the last 150 years or so, the Earth’s magnetic field has declined in strength about ten percent, and continues to decline in strength [as is evident] every time people go and make new measurements.” Creationists point out that this rapid decay is not expected in such a brief snapshot in time if our planet were 4.6 billion years old. On the other hand, these careful, long-term, and worldwide measurements that document the rapidly decreasing strength of Earth's magnetic field are consistent with a young Earth. Lathrop, not surprisingly, is an old-earth geophysicist who nonetheless acknowledged this data. Creationist physicist Russell Humphreys of Sandia National Labs has updated his previous work by publishing Earth's Magnetic Field Is Decaying Steadily, which includes global data through 2010. Humphreys observes that, "in 1968 the International Association of Geomagnetism and Aeronomy (IAGA) began more systematically measuring, gathering, and analyzing geomagnetic data from all over the world. ... Every five years starting in 1970, they have published both dipole and non-dipole components of the field. Using older data, the IAGA also extended the model..." backward in time. See more at our RSR site,

Earth's Rapid Magnetic Reversals: Do not confuse the field's decay with its reversals. Dr. Walt Brown, with a Ph.D. in electrical engineering from MIT, lists here and here the published research opposing any notion that magnetic "reversals" must occur over long periods. For example:
- Evidence Suggesting Extremely Rapid Field Variations During a Geomagnetic Reversal, Earth and Planetary Science Letters, 1989.
- Earth's Field Flipping Fast, New Scientist, 1992.
- New Evidence for Extraordinarily Rapid Change of the Geomagnetic Field During a Reversal, Nature 1995.
In his book In the Beginning, Dr. Brown points out that, "At one time the orientation of the earth's magnetic field changed rapidly by up to 6 degrees per day for several days." Update: In 2014, an old-earth scientist disclaimed his own research, retracting his support for rapid reversals based, not on the large reliable magnetic grains that are difficult to reorient, but on the smaller, less reliable grains which move far more easily. Click for the references and for Dr. Russell Humphrey's answer to the question: Why has one author retracted?

* The Palouse River Gorge: In the southeast of Washington State, the Palouse River Gorge is one of many features formed rapidly by 500 cubic miles of water catastrophically released with the breaching of a natural dam in the Lake Missoula Flood (which gouged out the Scablands as described above). So, hard rock can be breached and eroded rapidly.

Missing strata from the geologic column in the grand canyon* Grand Canyon's Millions of Missing Years: According to evolutionary geologists, there are MORE THAN 100 MILLION YEARS MISSING in the extraordinarily regular and straight layers of the Grand Canyon. The supposed geological layers entirely missing from the beautifully formed Grand Canyon strata, according to the National Park Service, include the Ordovician and the Silurian. The flat boundaries between strata provide hard evidence proving that millions of years of erosion DID NOT OCCUR, and that therefore, those millions of years DID NOT PASS, neither in the canyon nor anywhere on Earth. Also, the enormous side canyons, many of which would be major tourist attractions if they had formed elsewhere on Earth, have no river, Colorado or otherwise, to explain their existence, for they were formed by the rapid drainage of groundwater in the weeks after the flood catastrophically formed after the breach of a natural dam. The Grand Canyon formed rapidly.

* Carlsbad Cavern Formation: The National Park Service repeatedly changed the sign at the cave entrance which at first claimed that formation took "260 million years", then "8 million years", then "2 million years", and then they took the sign down altogether. See for the documentation. On Bob Enyart's family vacation in 2005 they heard onsite the official Carlsbad audio tour which now accurately states that the, "rate of formation depends on the amount of available water." (Previously, you could enjoy listening to that audio tour online but apparently it has now been removed from the web. In 2016 RSR will try to make that available again.)

* Death Valley Volcano Erupts AFTER Formation of Earth: According to the USGS, "The understanding of the timing of eruptions [in Death Valley] and the timing of the building up to eruptions is changing." Anti-biblical bias frequently leads scientists to a knee-jerk claim of events occurring tens of thousands or millions of years ago, which if true would falsify the Bible account of the creation week and the literal interpretation of Genesis presented by Jesus Christ Himself. According to USA Today, in this particular instance, the old claim that a Death Valley eruption occurred 10,000 years ago, which as Isaac Newton himself would have pointed out, would awkwardly have been prior to God's creation of the universe, actually occurred only 800 years ago, according to more careful scientific observations, as per the trend evident on this list-of-not-so-old-things!


Applications of radiocarbon dating [TO DO: Add Links]
The development of this page will be gradual and contributions are invited. There are many, many interesting applications of radiocarbon dating in a variety of different fields. If you would like to set up information regarding a project in which radiocarbon dating illuminated or solved a problem or in which C14 played a central role, please contact

The Dead Sea scrolls Page describing the Dead Sea scrolls at the Library of Congress, Washington.
Dead Sea Scrolls Short press release concerning the recent radiocarbon dating of some of the scrolls.
Kennewick Man Newspaper reports concerning the 9,200-year-old bones found recently along the banks of the Columbia River in Kennewick, Washington.
Debert, a palaeoIndian site in Nova Scotia Extensive radiocarbon dating from the Debert site, Nova Scotia indicates occupation between 10,600 and 10,700 BP.
Archaeometry and Stonehenge Presentation of results of excavations and dating of the Stonehenge 20th century excavations project.
Dating Stonehenge 52 radiocarbon dates have been measured in the reexcavation of parts of this famous archaeological site.
The Cave of Chauvet-Pont-D'Arc Radiocarbon dates from the caves are the earliest currently known for rock art in the region.
Archaeological research at Oslonki, Poland The site of Oslonki is dated by 24 radiocarbon dates, which when calibrated to calendar years point to a dating of between 4300 and 4000 B.C.
Dombate passage tomb, Spain WWW page about the megalithic monument of Dombate (La Corunha, Galicia, NW Spain) with several C14 dates for different moments of the life of the monument (in Spanish).
The Origins of Angkor Archaeological Project From the University of Otago (New Zealand) and the Fine Arts Department of Thailand, the project is concerned with investigating archaeology of pre-formative Angkorean society of South East Asia. Radiocarbon dating underpins the chronological aspects of the investigation.
Radiocarbon dating of the Angel site and phase in regional perspective. Sherri Hilgeman and Mark Schurr of the Glenn A. Black Laboratory of Archaeology.
Radiocarbon chronology from the prehistoric Caborn site, Indiana. by Cheryl Ann Munson (Indiana University) and Marjorie Melvin Jones (University of Southern Indiana).
Excavations at Pinarbasi, near Catal Huyuk, Turkey. Radiocarbon data.
Database of radiocarbon dates for British & Irish archaeology.
Archaeometry (University of Oxford) Past datelists.
Absolute Chronology for Early Civilisations in Austria and Central Europe using 14C Dating with Accelerator Mass Spectrometry
Canadian Archaeological Radiocarbon Database.
Mapping Ancient History A Java based map of Canada, showing the location and spread of dated sites based on the radiocarbon dates held in the Canadian Archaeological Radiocarbon database
Scientific American article, "Artful Dating" - dating geoglyphs, found on the desert floor of the southwestern U.S.

The World Ocean Circulation Experiment (WOCE) The World Ocean Circulation Experiment (WOCE); at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution's NOSAMS Facility. Measuring carbon in the Pacific and Indian Ocean to understand better the processes of ocean circulation.
Ocean sediment C-14 data The Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University has compiled 974 C-14 dates from 309 ocean sediments cores, covering the period from 40,000 years BP to the present worldwide.

 The America's Project A palaeovegetational reconstruction of the North and South Americam continents using a radiocarbon dated timeframe from 15-9 ky BP.
Wrangel Island Mammoths Abstract of the Radiocarbon article of the fascinating discovery that mamoths were still alive on this subarctic island at 2000 BC.
TephraBase Radiocarbon Search Search the Tephrabase directory for radiocarbon dated volcanic tephras.
Dating of Bear Lake, Western USA. The USGS Bear Lake Project aims to create records of past climate change for the Bear Lake region,including changes in precipitation patterns during the last 10,000 years and how the size of Bear Lake has varied in the past, to assess the possibility of future flooding and drought.
Radiocarbon dating the inundation of the Bering Land Bridge New Evidence on the Timing of Inundation of the Bering Land Bridge, Based on Radiocarbon Ages of Macrofossils.
Laboratory of Tree-Ring Research, University of Arizona.
Ancient Bristlecone Pine homepage.
Aegean Dendrochronology Project at Cornell University.
The International Tree-Ring Data Bank (ITRDB)maintained by the NOAA Paleoclimatology Program and World Data Center for Paleoclimatology.
The Sheffield Dendrochronology Laboratory, Sheffield, England.
The Climatic Research Unit, University of East Anglia, Norwich, England.
Current research in palaeoclimates and solar variation using tree ring dated C14 chronologies at the University of Arizona.
Palaeoclimates from Arctic Lakes and Estuaries (PALE) Home Page, including palaeoclimate databases from around the world.
Various Paleoclimatology links, University of Massachusetts, Climate System Research Center.

The Mars Meteorite. Investigation of the "terrestrial age"of Martian Meteorites using radiocarbon.

Family & Friends / Home
« on: May 13, 2019, 10:37:25 pm »

CutFog / Re: Phoenicians
« on: April 16, 2019, 01:07:41 pm »
Britons too? See:
Stonehenge Builders Revealed? Early Britons Came from Turkey | Ancient Architects

It says the Britons who built Stone Henge had DNA that originated in Anatolia (modern Turkey etc.). Since the Phoenicians apparently originated in the same area, maybe the Britons were also Phoenician. Maybe they built Gobekli Tepi in Anatolia too.

CutFog / Custer's Insurance
« on: April 16, 2019, 12:55:42 pm »
The Custer Hoax.
PAPER UPDATE, added 4/10/19, The Custer Hoax. A reader pointed out to me that some big information was buried in one of the Dances with Spooks footnotes. Custer and his officers had big life insurance policies, which were paid in full. See last addendum.
Custer Bought Life Insurance Policy Before Battle of Little BigHorn
- A copy of Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer’s life insurance policy is on display at Fort Abraham Lincoln State Park in North Dakota.
The replica of the $5,000 New York Life Insurance policy was taken out on June 4, 1874, about two years before he died at the Battle of the Little Bighorn.
- Custer’s wife, Libbie, was the beneficiary of his policy.
- The policy would be worth about $500,000 today.
- Potter said several of Custer’s officers had life insurance policies ranging from $5,000 to $10,000.
- The insurance company “paid out a lot of money,” he said.

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