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1
EU DEBATE / Re: 1st Tectonics Discussion
« on: October 23, 2017, 05:23:38 pm »
Hi All. I edited our 1st Tectonics Discussion from yesterday and posted it at: http://cnps.boards.net/th.../10/earth-theories-debate
And if you have problems there, I posted a backup at: http://funday.createaforu...1-15/1-102/msg220/#msg220

The participants were Louis Hissink, Bruce Leybourne, Robert Farrar, Mike Fischer and I, Lloyd Kinder. Chris Smoot also left a message for us. And James Maxlow provided a copy of his manuscript in advance. The first three participants are Electric Universe proponents, Mike and I are Shock Dynamics proponents, and I also favor Charles Chandler's ElectroStatic Universe model, which is kind of related to the other two. And it seems that EU incorporates some ST. We used an etherpad, which had some problems for some of us. I may try a Google Doc next time. We discussed for nearly 2 hours. It was kind of haphazard for the first phase, as we were all able to write at once, then we all collected together at the bottom for a while before closing. I'll try to improve the process for the future. Suggestions are always welcome.

I have requests for the participants and anyone else who wants to help for followup. We want to collect all of the most important evidence in references and brief arguments for each of the 6 models (i.e. Expansion Tectonics, Plate Tectonics, Surge Tectonics, Electric Universe, Electrostatic Universe and Shock Dynamics). We shared some references, but we need to get quite a bit more, if possible. I added the term =Have_ after participants' initials (at the beginning of each person's statements) to indicate where references are at least partly shown. And I added the term =Need_ after initials to indicate arguments & claims for which references are not shown. Before those terms I also numbered each participant's number of references requested and I rated how important I think each reference will be, A as very important, B as moderately important and C as less important. So, since it may be laborious to obtain references, we can prioritize those ranked A, then B.


2
EU DEBATE / 1st Tectonics Discussion
« on: October 23, 2017, 03:04:03 pm »
CNPS SPECIAL PROJECT. (((Sunday 6pm Eastern Time))) -- This Project is expected to last a few months. I hope to have discussions weekly or so.
[NEXT TIME MAYBE: https://docs.google.com/d...VYgMOzkUcflWg1J2ddIM/edit ]
DIRECTIONS: PLEASE STATE INITIALS & FIRST & LAST NAME IN CHAT BOX AT LOWER RIGHT. START EACH PARAGRAPH WITH YOUR INITIALS.
(If this page freezes on your computer, you may need to reopen the link at https://public.etherpad-m.../p/CritiquePlateTectonics )
_LK: Hi All. Thanks for your participation. This is for live discussion to question mainstream Plate Tectonics & our own alternative models.
---- The Tectonics Models being compared are ET: Expansion Tectonics; PT: Plate Tectonics; ST: Surge Tectonics; EU: Electric Universe; ESU: Electrostatic Universe; & SD: Shock Dynamics (Links at bottom. Bruce & Louis left early comments at the bottom. Bruce's were accidentally deleted.)
_LK: Below I list the main claims of each model in 5 categories of claims. Let's discuss in the spaces between each category. Let me know if I stated any of the claims incorrectly.
PT is the mainstream position. Let's share BRIEF arguments & links to important evidence in each category against PT & Let's ask important questions for each model. More than one person can write at a time (even in different sections).
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1. HOW THE EARTH FORMED.
<ET: (F:) Earth formed by gravitational accretion as per the Nebular Hypothesis. Then Earth (and other celestial bodies with magnetic fields) expanded significantly over millions of years.
<PT: (F:) Stars & planets form by gravitational accretion of cosmic dust as per the Nebular Hypothesis
<ST: (F:) Earth formed by gravitational accretion as per the Nebular Hypothesis.
<EU: (F:) Condensed plasma, could have been created and destroyed many times
<ESU: (F:) Stars and planets form by implosions of galactic electrostatic filaments, which produce current-free electric double-layers within the bodies, which produce radiation, earthquakes, volcanism etc.
<SD: (F:) The protocontinent [supercontinent] formed from a massive body that also formed the Moon.
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_LH: Earth formation - any scientific theory has to be compatible with the culture of the society that uses it. For judeo-christians that means Big Bang model and all its problems. This is the standard model. Proposing acceptable alternatives involves also explaining and replacing the core societal beliefs bundled as religion.
_LK: 1B=Have_ Charles Chandler has the best evidence against the Nebular Hypothesis that I know of. I'll see if I can get the link. He says matter wouldn't accrete in space, that if it condensed too much the heat or hydrostatic pressure would force it apart. __ http//:qdl.sds-inc.us/2ndParty/Pages/12682.html
_LH: PN Oat, writing from the Hindu perspective, assumed everything was created "as is" billions of years ago, so a suitable rhetorical assumption could avoid having to deal with the something from nothing idea.
_LH: 1A=Need_ Chandler is right - accretion is not observed, nor can one assume protons accumulating in a core since repulsion has to be factored in. High density phases best explained as Z-pinch products. ===
_LH: 2C=Need_ Planets could be fizzled out stars that are now escaping from Z-Pinch compressive forces? ===
_LK: Bruce, {I meant Louis} can you give more details on how plasma would condense?
_BL: 1B=Have_ Plasma condenses within the Chestahedron geometry, see __Frank Chester wonder of seven. Condensation happens during a charging phase, while plasma dissipation occurs during discharging. The magnetic field also strengthens and weakens from charging and discharging respectively. ===
_MF: The problems with accretion are well known, but I have not focused on this issue. Is the formation of any planetary systems being seen today by astronomers?
_BL: 2B=Need_ The supposed Nibiru, i.e. brown dwarfs near the Sun, seem to be condensation vortices from current charging of the solar system. The coronal holes appear to be the areas where charge enters opened up by magnetic poles of the planets. ===
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2. HOW THE CRUSTAL FEATURES FORMED.
<ET: (C:) Earth oceans are where most expansion has occurred at Earth's surface. Earth's mass increase comes from the solar wind, which causes expansion at the core-mantle boundary inside the Earth.
<PT: (C:) Islands formed and mantle convection caused them to slowly form a supercontinent. Mantle convection caused the supercontinent to slowly split apart into continents.
<ST: (C:) Earth shrank significantly over millions of years, due to cooling & the lithosphere contains a worldwide network of deformable magma surge channels in which partial magma melt is in motion, due to Earth contraction and rotation. Flood basalt covering most of the seafloor and parts of continents originated from surge channel ruptures. Oceanization is the tendency of continental land to sink and become seafloor.
<EU: (C:) Electrical circuits heat and cool (expand and contract), Surge Theory with an electrical reinterpretation makes the most sense for our model.
<ESU: (C:) Stars decay, eventually becoming gas giant planets, which lose atmosphere and become rocky planets.
<SD: (C:) A giant meteorite impact north of what is now Madagascar divided the protocontinent into the continents and islands via Shock Dynamics.
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_MF: 1C=Have_ Earth is not currently expanding, according to __Wu et. al. 2011 Geophysical Research Letters Accuracy of the International Terrestrial Reference Frame -- origin and Earth expansion, which uses "multiple precise geodetic data sets" to determine that "the mean radius of the Earth is not changing to within 1 sigma measurement uncertainty of 0.2 mm per yr". They averaged "weekly instantaneous frame origins spanning 26 years of Satellite Laser Ranging observations."
_LH: 3C=Need_ So earth is in volumetric stasis. __Vadim Anfilov years ago interpreted Oz seismic data that shrinkage or cooling is happening.
_BL: 2C=Need_ More likely a pulsating earth due to charging and discharging phases... ===
_MF: 1C=Need_ PT does not explain the positions of crustal features as a whole on the Earth, only locally. However, there is a pattern discernible beginning at a central point just north of Madagascar. Landmasses that moved went away from that point. This is a foundation of SD. ET superficially explains many features, especially if one looks only at the Atlantic Ocean region, but it is no longer obvious in the Southeast Asia region. ET also struggles to explain compression mountain building during expansion, and why mid-ocean ridges show varying speeds at different locations along the ridges, as between the central and south mid-Atlantic ridge. ===
_BL: 3C=Have_ There is an expansion at the equator during El Nino's, from EQ joule heating or warming of the mantle. It moves toward the equator with increasing viscosity and centrifugal forcing. This returns back to a contraction during La Nina. This is according to the __GRACE satellite mission data. Chestahedron geometry shows how this oscillation works. Whether or not there is net expansion or contraction was not addressed in the discussion and remains an open question depending on the time interval under review.
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3. HOW MILE-THICK SEDIMENTARY STRATA FORMED.
<ET: (S:) (See JM Manuscript)
<PT: (S:) Sedimentary rock strata were deposited in shallow seas on the continents over millions of years.
<ST: (S:)
<EU: (S:) Sedimentation occurs constantly, can be chemical precipitates, weathered rock, turbidites etc. -- This has been covered well in many text books
<ESU: (S:)
<SD: (S:) During this Flood orbiting asteroid-caused tsunamis deposited sediment from the continental shelf onto the protocontinent.
- As atmospheric pressure fell, much calcium carbonate precipitated from the sea water, forming thick sedimentary rock with fossils.
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_LH: 4A=Need_ Thick sediments are "usually" explained by erosion of adjacent mountains over long periods of time. Cliff Ollier would call this the "geological cycle", and is the standard model. Problem is that water cannot transport loads on horizontal planes - so having uniform sandstone deposits hundreds of miles laterally requires miraculous water. Even Gerry Pollack can't rig EZ water to do this, so I 've suggested, after watching the Star Wars Rogue One movie, that massive sediments are formed by electrified erosional products of deeply weathered regoliths via a sort of magnetohydrodynamic process. Very catastrophic in nature, however. ===
_LK: 1A=Need_ Louis, what about an asteroid or other large body orbiting Earth causing megatsunamis that swept mud and sand onto the continent/s from the continental shelf forming sedimentary rock? Also, CO2 in seawater degassed and formed limestone? ===
_MF: Is there evidence for "the bulk removal of crust on the Earth"? Do you mean continental crust or mud and sand?
_BL: 4B=Need_ This fits the arc blast concept of ocean basins being removed electrically. ===
_MF: I can imagine it, but where did all the continental crust disappear to? It currently averages 35 km thick.
_LH: 5C=Need_ Adds weight to the Sial-Sima macro structure proposed years ago too. ===
_MF: 2A=Need_ The work of sedimentologist Guy Berthault has demonstrated that moving water carrying sediment deposits multiple layers simultaneously. Over 40 documented "megaflood" deposits illustrate this, as do the Columbia and Mt Saint Helens landscapes. Many sedimentary geological formations extend over hundreds of thousands of square miles. ===
_LH: 6A=Need_ My field experience negates this - flowing water over bedrock is actually EZ water with a liquid crystal internal structure. It cannot pick up sediment loads. Water in bulk mode can. It's like water sliding over the bedrock like a fluidised glacier. However adding plasma forces makes it easier to explain massive sedimentary deposits. ===
_MF: 3A=Need_ Moving water has enormous erosive and carrying power, including large rocks, and loss of flow energy releases the load. ===
_LH: 7B=Need_ Observations of tsunamis making landfall doesn't seem to involve picking up bedrock - every thing on top and loose is picked up. A common error is arguing the consequent - here that sediments are deposited by water, and rivers flow along river beds, so hence the sediments are formed by the rivers. Isolated gravel deposits, such as chevron deposits abutting highlands, are explained as being put there by massive tsunamis. Load carrying tsunamis cannot carry any load over an ocean. They can only carry a load that they have excavated from bedrock but when a tsunami makes landfall, it rapidly runs out of energy as there is nothing "driving" the wave front. Plunking a stone in a pond causes tsunami-like waves to form but these are effects of the impact made by the stone being plunked into the pond. These waves dissipate into the background the further away they are from their initial generating force. Tsunamis making landfall very quickly run out of steam or energy. Videos of the latest Japanese events suggest the water body is behaving like a massive liquid crystal moving laterally over the land with great power. Not surprising if it is EZ water. ===
_MF: 4A=Need_ The assumed source of sediment is previously eroded bedrock, not the bedrock itself. The tsunamis doing the work are assumed to be cross-continental. ===
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4. HOW MOUNTAIN RANGES FORMED.
<ET: (O:) Mountain ranges occur near continental edges due to reduction in the Earth's radius of curvature that occurs with expansion at the surface.
<PT: (O:) Mountain ranges formed slowly from continental collisions and magma plumes etc.
<ST: (O:) Mountain ranges are formed by vertical uplift from below.
_There is Earth's core, mantle and crust interaction, in which thermal energy from the core is the fundamental energy source of global tectonic activities including earthquakes, volcanoes, rise and sink of the Earth surface, and global climate as well
<EU: (O:) Arc Blast or Static discharge between planets and the sun seem to be primary factors -- Recent field work, can be shared.
[Mountain ranges were formed from electric discharges from the Sun or a large planet that heated a large discharge channel, which expanded, uplifting mountains.]
<ESU: (O:) Mountain ranges were formed by rapid continental drift due to a large asteroid impact.
<SD: (O:) The movement of plates raised nearly all of the mountain chains via horizontal compression, and initiated global volcanism.
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_MF: 5B=Have_ "Virtually all major mountain ranges in the world are a consequence of crustal shortening." From: __Some Simple Physical Aspects of the Support, Structure, and Evolution of Mountain Belts. Peter Molnar, H. Lyon-Caen. Special Paper 218, Geological Society of America, 1988, pp. 179-207.
_LH: 8A=Need_ Agreed - but what then is the horizontal force that operated? PT can explain this. ET cannot by definition. Electric plasma effects could by forming strong lateral variants of Lorentz Force as a peripheral effect of a distal electromachining process eroding regolith and upper crust to form ocean basins. Strange that mountains are associated with subducted plates causing shortening or accretion. Rather than ocean plate moving, the plasma arc stripped the regolith and crust off, forming the ocean basin, and as a peripheral effects laterally compressed the adjacent remnant crust, along with volcanic activity etc resulting from the massive inputs of energy into the system. ===
_BL: 5A=Need_ Arc blast in the Grand canyon pushed up the Rockies, the thrust faulting is huge and needed sever energy to have that amount of thrust. ===
_MF: If that happened, wouldn't the Rockies be concentric around the Grand Canyon?
_BL: 6C=Need_ It didn't stop at the Grand Canyon, but traveled up the river systems of the Colorado and Green river creating the current morphology about 12,900 years ago when the Carolina Bays were formed also during the 12,900 megafaunal extinction event... ===
_MF: 6A=Have_ PT is too weak to raise mountain chains. Numbers from the literature have values in this range: Slab pull: 500 bars, 450 bars ("subduction pull"), 300 bars; Ridge push: 200 bars, 250 bars, 250 bars, 200-300 bars, 200-400 bars; Basal drag: 200 bars, 200 bars. And basal drag is considered to be an opposing force to plate movement except beneath cratons. The stress required for crustal shortening to build mountains is hard to find, but has been calculated to be in a range from 1500 to 2500 bars up to 4000 to 6000 bars, inferring the latter "from earthquake data and evaluation of the stresses required to produce specific geological structures". In the case of South America, the combination of ridge push and forward basal drag (by trench suction) could produce only 400 to 600 bars of force, which is clearly insufficient to build the Andes. These forces are already engaged in moving the entire plate westward.
_LK: Mike, I had your reference for that saved up. __It's http://www.newgeology.us/Plate%20Tectonics.pdf
_MF: 7A=Need_ This is one of the problems with PT, that it is okay at explaining the current situation but not the origin. This applies not only to mountain chains, but to the origin of subduction and the splitting of continental crust. A large force, as in SD, is required. ===
_LK: Mike, I'm putting your initials at the beginning of each of your paragraphs, so I know who said what.
_LH: 8B=Need_ Well mountains are readily explained by PT, :-), but whether it is real or not. One fact is __Ollier and Pain's work - that many so-called mountains are actually old landsurface remnants that had their surrounds eroded away. This leaves the highly compressed mountains requiring large horizontal forces. Cosmic scaled electric arcs, as described by Oz aboriginals as Rainbow Serpents, or as Van De Waals phenomena could generate large Lorentz forces in the horizontal plane. ===
_MF: Is the ESU position on mountain ranges really the same as SD? ===
_LK: 2B=Need_ Yes, Charles accepts your model somewhat, but he thinks the continents moved apart more slowly.
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5. WHAT CAUSED ICE AGES & GLACIATION.
<ET: (GL:) (See JM Manuscript)
<PT: (GL:) Glaciation was caused by cooling.
<ST: (GL:)
<EU: (GL:) Cosmic Ray density with particle cascades creating storms, volcanic eruptions and global envelope of cloud cover leading to ice ages. Glaciation is a small subset of the ice ages and increases every winter more snow accumulates than melts. -- I can bring some references on cosmic rays
<ESU: (GL:)
<SD: (GL:) Movement of continents toward the poles along with atmospheric moisture and volcanic and impact dust led to glaciation.
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_BL: 7C=Need_ Seems to be tied to increasing cosmic ray density as we pass through certain sections of space in the various Milankovitch cycles. ===
Increased cosmic rays = increased particle precipitation = increased charging, increased lighting and storms and increased volcanic activity leading to increased clouds and solar shielding. Ice ages cometh, when earth reaches a certain capacitance the earth and likely the whole solar system is involved, arc blast ends the ice ages melting the caps, flooding from the poles, and twisting the planet's axis creating tsunamis from the oceans, piling animals from various climes together. Classic Velikovsky...
_MF: 8B=Need_ Rather a basketful of assumptions there. An Ice Age would seem to require greatly increased atmospheric moisture, as in heating the oceans, at the same time the atmosphere is cooling dramatically in at least one hemisphere. And this continues for a long time following sudden instigation. Classic SD. ===
_LH: 9C=Need_ Years ago I had an email discussion with Gerry Pollack and I raised the issue of whether ice forms at the poles as a consequence of excess protons entering the ionosphere and surface, thus forming ice. If a body of water, say an ocean, has EZ water as a surface layer, and an inrush of protons occur, then that EZ water gets turned into ice as a reaction to the increased energy supplied by the protons. Hence ice ages could be explained as massive injection of protons via CME's etc, Animals seem to be mainly made of water, in this case EZ water, and an inrush of protons could actually snap-freeze life forms almost instantaneously. This mechanism could explain the snap-freezing of mammoths. So a super Carrington event could be interpreted as an ice-age? The mechanism here is that ice ages are not caused by a drop in temperature but, paradoxically , an in crease in the system's energy state. ===
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_LH: 10A=Need_ Preliminary comment: Whatever mechanism is proposed, gravity remains the elephant in the room. Empirically gravity seems electrical in nature, and if so there are at present more than 20 models proposed for the electron, whether particle or wave. This does not help much in understanding gravity. Rock density is a fundamental physical measurement and relies totally on a correct understanding of gravity. Mantle convection, for example, assumes lower density for higher temperature, everything else being equal. Or lower density is linked to pressure which is caused by gravitational attraction with less dense rising and more dense sinking, eebe. Solar explanations such as proposed by Robitaille etc, assume gravity. Mantle pressure in the Earth assumes gravity. Rivers and streams flow because of gravity, and hence erosion is caused, ultimately, by gravity. Weather is caused by density differentials in the atmosphere caused by gravity. Geological evolution assumes gravity and accretion, cosmological to the smallest bolide. If electrical forces EM AND gravity are considered then we have a problem of magnitude, EM force is 10^38 greater in magnitude than gravity force. We cannot combine the two as a unified "field" because if one is assume a magnitude 1, say EM Lorentz force, then gravity is so small in magnitude it can be ignored, and which is what A.J. Peratt did with his PIC computer simulations using plasma. If gravity can be ignored as an assumption of mass attracting mass, then alternative mechanisms need to explain non-plasma phenomena in lieu of Newtonian gravity. This leads directly to the problem of rock density which is a fundamental physical property of condensed matter, It leads directly to isostasy, from which PT was developed, so explaining rock density becomes crucial., because it is an essential theoretical axiom on which the rest is deduced. ===
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ET: Expansion Tectonics __ James Maxlow __ http://www.expansiontectonics.com
PT: Plate Tectonics __ Wikipedia __ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics
ST: Surge Tectonics __ Dong Choi __ http://ncgt.org __ http://forums.naturalphil...phy.org/show...hp?tid=113
EU: Electric Universe __ (Ralph Juergens, deceased), Wal Thornhill, Don Scott __ http://holoscience.com __ http://thunderbolts.info __ https://www.iascc.org/the-science
ESU: Electrostatic Universe __ Charles Chandler __ http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=6031
SD: Shock Dynamics __ Mike Fischer __ http://NewGeology.us , (LK1-4) http://funday.createaforum.com/index.php
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_LK: WE CAN ALL BRING UP QUESTIONS & COMMENTS BELOW NOW & GO UP ABOVE TO SEE WHAT TO ASK ABOUT IF NEEDED.
_CS: Before we really get into it, I would like to ask two things.
1. Did math solutions give us the very real orthogonal fracture/megatrend intersections and vortex structures on the ocean floor?. ===
2. Did geophysics give us the 1-2 Ga rocks on the magnetic 180 Ma ocean floor? ===
_LH: Lloyd, the color scheme you are using black letters on green background also has a mauve component that is unreadable. :-)
_LK: I don't control the colors. You can go to the gear symbol at upper right and click on Authorship colors to change the background to white.
_LH: You can adjust your own colours by clicking the coloured square next to your name. Took me a while to work it out.
_RF: 1A=Have_ Lloyd have you considered adding the work of Michael Csuzdi to your list of global tectonic models? Thermionic Emission Geophysics__: http://breakthroughinenergy.com
_LK: I haven't heard of that, but always willing to add other ideas. Do you favor it for something?
_RF: 2B=Need_ I think Csuzdi missed an opportunity; his model sees Earth's magnetic field as originating from within the Earth rather than externally. ===
_LK: 3A=Need_ That's how Charles sees it too. He finds that the planets and stars likely have CFDLs and the charges in different layers can speed up or slow down as during impacts, causing the field to change. ===
_LH: 11B=Need_ The internal origin for the geomagnetic field was, at the time it was proposed, logical since we did not know about the Van Allen belts, solar wind, etc. Just that the Sun was an irradiating source, space was empty in which was suspended an inert globe, the earth. Which had a magnetic field that could only be located inside the earth. Much progress has since been made but the theory hasn't changed. This is the problem. [LH thinks the field is Externally generated.] ===
_BL: 8C=Need_ [to CS] 1.) The orthogonal fracture zones (don't know about the math) but geometry again controls. This pattern can also be seen in the eight layers of the human heart, the Chestahedron geometry shows this relationship is tied to "vortex geometry" where all the platonic solids are contained within the chestahedron. The inner double layer of the inner and outer core has tetrahedron or fire element geometry as evidenced by the magnetic spike structure (Quinns inverse magnetic modeling techniques show the delta- y configurations of Giovanni Gregoris "Sea Urchin Spikes"). The next double layer in the mantle has the square "earth" geometry as evidenced by the four north south circuits on the ridges along the corners of the cube, global heat flow and mantle gravity signatures attest to this. As you move up into the water or dodecahedron geometry, you see the hurricanes follow these circuits which are part of the vile vortex system., the air has double diamond or double pyramid structure, this is seen in the Total Electron Content data where the points of the triangles actually point to where EQ [earthquakes?] will occurs sometimes, then there is the aether pentagon geometry where the plasma comes into the poles. Each double layer has its specific geometry, this was the beauty of Plato's forgotten knowledge. The vortex geometry of the chestahedron contains all the platonic solids and is responsible for the harmony or balance of electromagnetic forces linked to or controling the Golden ration or Fibonacci fractalization sequences... ===
_BL: 9B=Have_ The polarity of magnetic stripes on the seafloor has only been confirmed in 7 places by the Deep Sea Drilling Project, magnetic data is collected generally by shipborne and airborne scalar and sometimes vector magnetometers. Most of the stripes are simply what's called susceptibility contrasts and are not confirmed as polarity reversals. __Art Meyerhoff, author of surge tectonics has a good article on this; I don't have the link but it is covered in his text on Surge tectonics. He also states that many of the magnetic stripes are not parallel to the ridges, some are actually perpendicular to the ridges. The electrical orientation of the circuit determines the orientation of the stripe.
_LK: Bruce, I'd love to have a link to that info on magnetic stripe data.
_LK: I read Meyerhoff's book and copied some of it. The book didn't mention the magnetic stripes that I know of. It's good that the article apparently did though.
_MF: According to the numbered issues, this discussion is about the Earth rather than the universe. Apparently there has not been much thought on these issues. It is clear that there are collisions occurring in the galaxy, and perhaps there is exclusive evidence for electrical interaction? How could the electric universe concept [be tested] conceivably be disproved?
_LK: The CFDL theory of Earth might be disprovable. That's current-free electric double-layers.
_MF: How would that be done?
_LK: 4A=Need_ It's part of the Earth, so we have better access than off-planet. Also, calculations can be made to determine feasibility. Charles has found that spacing of plasma cells in the lab and the spacing of planets and of stars in globular clusters all follow the same law or formula. So, knowing the charge on planets should tell us something about whether the planets could be repelled from each other according to that formula. ===
_MF: Is Earth positively or negatively charged?
_LK: 5C=Need_ The planets, as Charles says, have electric double-layers, so they're both charges, but I think they're more positive than negative. Anyway the atmospheres are positive. Charles & others say the Sun is more negative than positive, but the outer layer is positive there too. ===
_BL: 10B=Have_ Also there are the double layers within the earth that have opposite charges, this can be seen in the double layers of __Quinn's inverse modeled magnetic source depth data.
_BL: 11B=Need_ The poles have opposite charges. LK has the answer on repelling planets, I would agree... you can see this in __experiments with small steel balls... ===
_MF: So would Earth repel another planet? It is surprising that planets mimic small steel balls.
_LK: 6C=Have_ Charels' findings suggest that all the planets repel each other. I can look for his paper on that. __ http//:qdl.sds-inc.us/2ndParty/Pages/15369.html
_LH: 12B=Need_ Negatively - mainly by the oceans having a surface layer of EZ water. Magnitude is diurnal. ===
_MF: 9B=Need_ Magnetic polarity and intensity have also been found to change with depth in oceanic crust. ===
_BL: 12B=Need_ As well as within cores of volcanic rxs. Polarity and intensity seem to change and rotate within the layers indicating the polarity and intensity are controlled locally via the volcanic electrical system and not a global orientation related to N-S poles... ===
_LK: Bruce, can you get me a link to that evidence from volcanic cores? What's rxs?
_BL: Rxs... abbreviation for rocks. This is stuff I read years ago, I'd have to search for those references. I may have it referenced in one of my publications, but that will take time to find again...
_LH: An earth in a gravitational or electrical environment? At present the whole edifice of Plate Tectonics and Expanding earth are based on the gravitational model. But plasma physics, the Peratt model, ignores gravity. If so then all the tectonic features that we observe on the Earth are presently explained by the gravitational model. Instead we need to explain things in an electrical model.
_LH: Proving the Electric Universe model requires falsifying the Western Cultural paradigm. This is a problem.
_LK: I don't think Western religions stand in the way of science much any more.
_LH: Describing the Earth's evolution requires a starting point, and this remains controversial. Most US geologists seem to favour a short chronology, others a long one. I had the same issue when I edited AIG News - the long chronologists did not like editorial favourable to the short-chronologists being published. It got to rather an excitable situation.
_MF: So long folks. [Disappointing discussions] on the topics, which are worthwhile.
_LK: Mike, what part of the country are you in? You're welcome to make suggestions to improve discussions. I'll try to organize better or find better ways to get info from everyone.
_MF: North Carolina
_LK: A question for you EU people. Looks like there are one or two of you here still, since Louis left. I'm an ESU person, rather than EU. The question is: Is a vacuum an insulator or a conductor, or neither or both?
_BL: Is there really such a thing as a total vacuum, seems to be an idealized mathematical construct, but if there's a few particles in there depending on what it was it seems it could be either or both...
_LK: 7C=Need_ Charles says a vacuum has no resistance to charge. So I think he says interplanetary discharges would likely not occur as EU theorists have said. I should get him here to explain, though, since he has the info. ===
_BL: 13B=Need_ The concept of interplanetary discharge is simply static electric discharge, and we know the solar wind is full of particles, thus the assumption of a vacuum related to our solar system is mute... ===
_RF: 3B=Need_ Vacuum Circuit Breakers are used in high voltage power systems to extinguish the electric arc. ===
_LK: 8B=Need_ Would it be fairly easy to test in a vacuum chamber whether a vacuum is more conducting or insulating? I know Charles referenced some data from satellites or something that indicated that vacuum is "conducting". ======
_BL: Why the insistence the solar wind is a vacuum?
_LK: I don't know the density of the solar wind, but I'm guessing that on Earth it would be considered a vacuum? Do you know the density? Is it some tens or hundreds of particles per cc?
_BL: 14C=Have_ Depends on whether your interested in proton density or other particles,__ http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/ lot of information on solar wind properties at that link.
_LK: Thanks, Bruce. I guess we can wrap up soon, if there's not a lot of info to share yet. Do you's have more questions or comments or suggestions how to have better discussions?
_BL: Final comment, the one that got deleted earlier. Seems to me we should begin to understand the tectonic domain as a weather system, where Giovannis Sea urchin spikes are the pressure cells, the plate boundaries or surge channels are the stream flows, like jetstreams, and frontal boundaries, where counter flows to the mantle must exist in the asthenosphere or volcanics. The Westward drift of the magnetic field indicates an deep mantle trade wind etc. The plate tectonic concept of linear upwelling is like the idealized mathematical construct of the net heat flow model of Hadley Cell circulation in the atmosphere. It doesn't exist in actual flow dynamics. If you were a weatherman and all you could report on was heat is rising at the equator and moving towards the poles and you model doesn't allow the existence of pressure cells, stream flow or frontal boundaries, much less trade winds, you couldn't say much about the weather. This is the problem with plate theory, it's driver is based on an idealized mathematical construct that is simple to understand in a text book, but has no basis in reality... That's it in a nutshell, signing off, enjoyed the discussion... ======
_LK: Thanks for repeating that, Bruce. Good Day. I'll try not to delete that this time. Are you in Colorado or Florida?
_BL: Florida
_LK: Robert, do you have a link to your main info? Is it summed up somewhere?
_RF: Which info would that be, Lloyd.
_LK: Info on Tectonics.
_RF: 4A=Have_ __ http:breakthroughinenergy.com

3
LK4 Continental Drift & Orogeny / GLACIAL CATACLYSM - Chapman
« on: October 23, 2017, 09:10:05 am »
Glacial Cataclysm
http://www.readbag.com/ch...rch-pdf-glacial-cataclysm

Granitic and sedimentary rocks … were dredged up from the Mid-Atlantic Ridge from a depth of 3,600 ft. They exhibited deep scratches and striations similar to those stones in “drift” formations commonly attributed to glacial action. However, in the same area there were found “some loosely consolidated mud stones”.... Together with many other geological and topographic formations on the bed of the Atlantic these mud stones were formed not underwater but in the open air, and must … date from a time when that portion of the ocean floor was above sea level.

Firstly, numerous marine shells, often of currently-existing species, lie at high elevations on several islands in Arctic Canada. They should have been pulverised had ice-sheets ever crept across those territories, for in no instance do they appear to have been deposited where they are now found since alleged Ice Age times.
Secondly, among the most telling details in this category are the numerous enclaves of unglaciated territory within regions which, glacialists long argued, supposedly lay under thick, continuous ice-sheets, not once but on several successive occasions.

… Initially it might be considered reasonable to expect the end of an Ice Age to herald warmer conditions, but widespread investigations have shown that the reverse actually happened: temperatures generally fell as the effects attending the termination of the Younger Dryas episode were experienced globally. Sea-surface temperatures, for example, dropped in the North Atlantic, in the western North Pacific, in the South China Sea and even in the tropical Sulu Sea between the Philippines and northern Borneo, where marine cores indicate a “pronounced cooling of surface waters during Younger Dryas times” in tandem with an increased summer monsoonal regime in central China. Late Pleistocene sediments in deep-sea cores obtained from the bed of the central North Atlantic contain the remains of planktonic foraminifera, which collectively exhibit faunal patterns [that] show a former mixing of top and bottom ocean-water layers ten times faster that the speed … of glacial and interglacial episodes.... [Similar patterns were found in cores from the Caribbean basin.] … Effects of changes like these were widespread [as] around Hudson Bay, across Atlantic Canada and in the northeastern USA, and occurred even as far south as South America and Antarctica.

Particularly interesting and certainly perplexing is the well-established fact that many allegedly glaciated hills and mountains in the northern hemisphere are scored and striated from top to bottom on their northern sides only. In North America this remarkable condition is quite common. … Of further relevance is the fact that deposits of gravel and other “drift” materials sometimes occur only on the northern and north-western flanks of hills, in some instances showing every indication of having been actually plastered up against the hillsides with great force. Many cases of this occur on both sides of the Atlantic. In Labrador, for example, “erratic” boulders have been rammed into hillsides apparently with much violence.
    Large “erratic” boulders in the Sahara Desert, on the Mongolian plains, and in subtropical Uruguay constitute a parallel anomaly. And when it is discovered that it is possible to produce rock striae like those usually attributed to ice action by such dissimilar agents as drift-sand, fast-moving [flows from volcanoes], snow, mudslides and high pressure grit-charged steam, we are obliged to seriously question.

The carapace of a tortoise twenty feet long was found [in the Siwalik Hills north of Delhi]. The Etephas ganesa an elephant species found [there], had tusks about fourteen feet long and over three feet in circumference.

4
CNPS Structured Discussion / Re: CNPS General Discussion
« on: September 26, 2017, 05:48:30 pm »
Forum next steps
Saturday, August 5, 2017 9:09 AM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Hi Lloyd,
_The board has just finished gathering notes together. There is a lot to think through and discuss - 5 pages to be exact. So, major decisions are away off. It will take at least a month, given all board members are volunteers. I think I have enough understanding of the issues to take action. I've also been officially put on the board. So, let's move ahead with what we can. I'll discuss this in the Special Projects section below.
_Someone else asked me if the email posts could automatically be displayed on the Forum. I don't know how to do that. But I also think it's a bad idea. As we move to more productive Forum discussions, MOST of the email posts would have to be deleted as trash. It's better to work to bring over responsible members who agree to tighter conduct rules. I'll put your name on my email removal list if you want. Let me know. It will still take awhile to be effective.
_I looked at all the posts related to Critical Wikis in the Forum. All of them seemed very preliminary - almost like scratch sheets. But you've collected information for each which is where the process has to start. Let's address this further by talking about a special project.
_The Special Projects section of the CNPS planning notes is included below. These are all suggestions for efforts CNPS could work on AS A GROUP in the coming year. So far, CNPS has not figured out HOW to work as a group. As I said, CNPS has a lot to discuss. What I'd like you and I to do is pick ONE project that we will work together on right away as an example to the other directors of how I think we can employ the Structured Discussion process. The "ONE" project I'm referring to is NOT on the list below. It's one of the projects you have already started that you have a personal interest in.
_Let's say, for example, you pick the 3.3.3 Scientific Method project. What we would do, is, include sections that address items 4.1, 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8, 4.11 and 4.12 from the Special Projects list. Since all of those for all of science would still be much to big a job, we could aim all the parts at a specific physics issue, like item 4.4 from the list. That would also pull in 4.2 and 4.3.
_You can also pick one of your other interests instead. But none of those came up during the conference, nor have they had much interest. The nearest matches were Expansion Tectonics and Positron / Electron aethers, both big topics at the conference. Of course, you can also pick a new topic to try.
_My objective in listing all these alternatives is for you to see that I want to support something you have a strong personal interest. This comes from my major drive with the board. CNPS, as a society, has to deliver VALUE to its members. I want to use our interaction to demonstrate how this can be done.
_4.  Special Projects
_The purpose of special projects is that they have specific goals and an organized process that people can get in on and benefit from.
_4.1   Detailed Library and keyword subject index of member papers
The CNPS library has 13,000+ items. Unless these are organized for easy and understandable access, people will not take the time to “wade” through them. Most items have titles that are not descriptive of their contents. Detailed indexing is needed.
·     Indexing should be done by the authors for their own papers against published guidelines.
·     This effort should earn awards: e.g. Those that index their papers go to the top of the list.
_4.2   GPS paper based on Ron Hatch’s work – title: “GPS corrections to Special Relativity”
Ron’s work provides paradigm shifting experimental results for the speed of light. A large effort, tied to CNPS, should be started to push this into social awareness.
_4.3   Do focused promotions of “breakthrough” ideas from the conference
·     Musa showed how a bipolar aether can explain gravity, using only electrostatics.
·     Bruce stumbled on a way to eliminate one of the S.I. fundamental units (distance or time). Unzieker offered to “look” at it.
·     Bruce found a new paradox for SR – the “c-speed” paradox. Lori Gardi also found a similar phenomenon, both of which show SR is an instrument calibration error problem.
_4.4   A focused push on Special Relativity
The study of email interactions by members showed that SR constituted more than 80% of all discussions. We should focus SR to pull members into the Forum.
·     Find summaries of SR proof experiments.
·     Find summaries that show where society thinks SR has been used – Mercury orbit etc.
·     Review and find challenges for each. Base this on the Sapere Aude index (which Gertrud will help with). Update and promote that index.
·     Publish a major “SR Update paper”
_4.5   Attack the LANGUAGE problem!
During the conference, it was very clear that members do NOT talk the same language, because they don’t share the same definitions of words. This is a critical problem to solve.
·     One element would be setting up a Critical Thinker Glossary. Each term would be supported by a published Critical Wiki.
·     Tear apart the misleading terminology of terms used in particle physics.
_4.6   Attack the “shut up and do the math” problem!
Many members are very competent manipulating equations. But many of those are not as good understanding how the variables in the equations apply to reality. An effort to convert them would improve intermember communication.
_4.7   Experimental Evidence Review
·     List the experimental evidence that society believes “proves” major theories: Michelson-Morley, Eddington etc. Organize and present the now known errors.
·     Focus on helping people identify Pseudo Science ::: “not subject to tangible proof”
_4.8   Develop scientific tests that will break the logjams of entrenched theories
Members have suggestions for each of these and more.
·     Speed of light
·     Aether / Gravity: develop a test to determine the mechanism – fields, particles
_4.9   Debates! Use a new Structured Communication approach
·     Duncan Shaw suggested staging debates to resolve incompatible theories. Conventional debate models, as an approach, have collapsed with the collapse of modern democracy. Structured Communication provides a solution. This new form of debate can be used as a verbal alternative to Structured Communication in the Forum. The goal is not to find a winner, but to assemble a comprehensive review of a topic. If there is enough knowledge to reach a conclusion, then a “winner” would be found.
_4.10                 Science Court!
·     This would be a variation of Duncan’s Debates. Using a new Structured Communication approach, it would NOT be aimed at reaching a verdict but be more like a Congressional hearing to: gather information and organize information. Critical thinkers would be welcome. Mainstream voices could present like anyone else, but would not be shown any presumed merit.
_4.11                 Implement the Critical Wikipedia
·     One approach under investigation is to make a Critical Wikipedia page a goal for Structured Discussions in the Forum. This would apply to every scientific term discussed there.
_4.12                 Start Peer Review
·     We are going to need reviewers for many things. Let’s start the search for people who can do this well, and reward them for doing so.
Bruce
__On Aug 4, 2017, at 3:39 PM, lloyd kinder wrote:
_Hi Bruce. Is work with the Conference finished yet?
_I guess I mentioned that Gertrud said she didn't want to write on the forum. She also didn't reply to my request to ask her and her team questions.
_Someone put me back on the email string, which is okay so far. It seems to me it might be feasible and helpful to have the email messages automatically displayed on the forum in your first section, from where they could later be moved to a more appropriate section. What do you think?
_Is the Wiki coming along okay to your satisfaction?
- Good Day. Lloyd

---

Re: Debates
Saturday, September 2, 2017 7:34 AM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Lloyd,
_David is not moving very quickly deciding on action. He was focused on setting up the conference for next year. That is now done. It will be at UConn.  In any case, there is no need to wait. Just start moving ahead with your ideas. Getting James to annotate the questions is a big help. I'll push David to let me start a real organization newsletter. That's the proper way to tell members about the ET effort. But you should definitely post to the email string.
_Bruce

On Sep 1, 2017, at 6:00 PM, lloyd kinder wrote:
_Hi Bruce. You said:
_B: I think you can start your first debate right in the Forum using your role as facilitator. For example, In the Tasks & Request for Volunteers, number 1.4 is Organize focused discussions related to the "open" questions with a goal of finding answers. Add a new item in the Open Assignments list: 4.2 Hold debates on specific open questions. Then assign yourself as the Team Leader.
_L: James Maxlow told me a couple days ago that he's working on answering all 22 questions about ET, so I expect to see his answers on the forum soon. He asked if it's okay to include pictures and I said yes. I also expect that I'll still have at least one or two open questions after he posts his answers.
_The other open questions are regarding the other geological theories. I don't know if CNPS members will be interested in helping find answers to those questions, but I guess I can ask.
- Good Day. Lloyd

Re: Debates
Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:03 AM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Lloyd,
_This is outstanding work on your part. I'm including David deHilster on this reply because this can have significant impact on CNPS growth.
_You've asked a lot of questions. Let me take them one at a time. (matched to reference numbers added below)
_Back in mid August, we hadn't fully organized the Expansion Tectonics Structured Forum yet. You were already working on Surge Tectonics. So that is what they were responding to. I've set the 6.0 Forum category up to handle as many subjects as users show interest in.
_There is a LOT to read "between the lines" here. Dr. Choi, based only on your contact, evidently forwarded your ideas to many of their "editorial" members.  That's a big deal. Furthermore, most of them replied positively. To me, this is an important example of how we can grow CNPS. I'm also noting, it is not because they found the CNPS website. It happened because we reached out to a specialty.
_So this is where we need David's input.  How do we bring them in?  For example, we could ask one member of NCGT to join CNPS as the primary interface. Hopefully, it will lead to others joining voluntarily. To start their involvement, I've created a Forum user category called "Guest Scholar". They essentially have temporary read/write forum privileges. Other NCGT members can join the forum as "Guests", but they can only read.
_I always believed that creating a Critical Wiki "feature" at CNPS could become a major draw for members. David has done a lot to establish a foundation for this. But a lot of work is needed to make it more usable. With this new expression of interest from outside, it may be the trigger we need to start a "formal" CNPS project. The key is lining up the manpower to do it. But this outside interest could be the catalyst.
_They want to know more about us! This, again, suggests a new approach to how we do outreach. We can tell them to just look through our website. But, most people won't do that because it covers too broad an area. But, having a person like you, with your background, make a one-on-one contact opened the door to make an introduction. Again, I want to get David's perspective on this. For me, we should not just reply with anything simple like our mission statement or goals. This needs to be targeted towards what NCGT readers are interested in. It would actually be presented in a way that is a "ghost article" that NCGT could publish in their journal as an editorial or special interest piece showing how CNPS resources can help their effort.
_My plan for the Forum in this regard is simple. We would generate as many Wikis as effort comes forward to produce. That's the draw from their group. NCGT, being a journal, may not have the skills to generate Wikis. We have the skills - they have the writers. We just need to pull it together and give both organizations notoriety for it.
_We are already starting to explore debates / discussions in the Forum using my new Structured approach. Their participation will help. But, we need to use the new approach or the outcome will just go into the Internet Landfill.  We have to stop that.
_Both, plus more options as well. There should be as many papers and Wikis as the members provide energy to produce. Each paper will focus on some narrow issue. In those papers, they will briefly reference all the theories they drew from. So, there will be a pyramid of both papers and Wikis: A few general references at the top spreading to larger numbers at levels below as more specific subjects are addressed. What will help launch this is getting enough annotation on the papers already cataloged in the CNPS library so they can become the basis for the new Wikis.
_David has recently pulled part of the Wiki format process together. Specifically, he has covered the composition part. What is still missing is guidance on the pyramid approach. That will be new. In brief, it will show how a large group of papers and Wikis come together as a system. For example, there would be a major organizing Wiki for Global Tectonics, that briefly talks about all the major theories (this is the table you have started). It would point to organizing Wikis for each individual theory. Those, in turn, would point to additional Wikis for parts of the theory.  We do not have a process description in place to point anyone to yet. In the mean time, just focus on one Wiki at a time.
_As for the debates, use the etherpad discussions and emails we have had as guidance. Remember, this is an experiment to find out which ideas work best.
_Use the answers he gives to support your earlier discussions for ST. But I think you need to narrow down your interest. You are also getting a lot of support from James Maxlow. Don't shortchange him. It may be better to focus NCGT on ET until the first few papers and Wikis are produced so we have something tangible to show for all the effort that is being generated. To date, category 6.2 has posted 24 threads; 70 replies; and 1364 views. You and I have sent 175+ emails. Using the methods I developed for the email analysis, I estimate that the Expansion Tectonics forum effort has now drawn over 225 hours of effort from our members! Let's keep focusing to get a paper and Wiki out of this soon!
_Bruce
__On Sep 5, 2017, at 11:19 PM, lloyd kinder wrote:
_Hi Bruce.
_On August 15, Dr. Choi, who edits the NCGT (New Concepts in Global Tectonics) journal, replied to me regarding the CNPS Special Project as follows.
_{1} "We received feedbacks from editorial members. Most of them are willing to join. All of them are world-class experts in their own field, who proposed their own ideas with sound data.  Naturally more subjects must be included in addition to surge tectonics. Surge tectonics appeared more than 20 years ago, and during the period many new data have appeared - some require revisions and adjustments, which must be reflected in the Wiki.
_{2} "Please let us know more in detail in what format the Wiki will be published, and what and how we need to prepare.
_{3} "We want to know more about you. Please introduce yourself to our editorial members.
_{4} I guess Dr. Choi may have had the impression that all of the theories involved in this project would receive Wiki entries. Is there any reason they should not have such entries there? It seems worthwhile to me.
_{5} Anyway, I think several of the other NCGT editors are interested in debates or discussions.
_{6} Will the theories in the project all be mentioned in the final paper of this project? Or will each theory have its own entry in the Wiki?
_{7} Do you have an answer to what format the Wiki will be published in? Should I just give them a link to the CNPS Wiki?
_{8} For them to prepare for the debates/discussions, will they just need to ask questions about other theories and answer other people's questions about theirs?
_{9} I just now told him about my progress on the Special Project and asked him if he could fill out the remaining ST claims for 5 Earth features. I hope to answer his questions soon.
- Good Day. Lloyd

Re: 6.0 Forum
Saturday, September 9, 2017 9:39 AM
From: "Bruce Nappi" <bnappi@A3RI.org>
_Lloyd,
_I think I understand your overall idea, but there are factors you aren't considering. The major one is the scope of the facilitation problem. To do justice to each of these subsections, we would need a separate facilitator for each one. You couldn't possibly facilitate all of them. This is why I kept trying to get you to pick one, just to work out the details. To fulfill just ET, here are the tasks I still think need to be accomplished:
_A comprehensive, annotated bibliography still needs to be collected. The goal is to provide a complete foundation for the theory with no loose ends.
_A comparison table / discussion is needed to frame ET within the other theories.  The goal is, when major papers are written, they can start from a defined place in the tectonic map that makes it clear what their pros and cons are, in relation to all the others. This is important because it  FOCUSES all the following efforts.
_Let me elaborate on this a little more. The major problem plaguing ALL of science is chaos in our discussions! This is what my papers have been talking about. The tectonic discussions are no different. Until we get a map that tells everyone: a. these are the theories; b. this is what makes them distinct; c. these are their strong points; d. these are their weak points, the discussions will turn into landfill chaos, just like the email string. Since the conference, there have been over 1600 emails! - ALL lost to CNPS progress!  Think about the stats I provided just on 6.2 ET: "To date, category 6.2 has posted 24 threads; 70 replies; and 1364 views. You and I have sent 175+ emails. Using the methods I developed for the email analysis, I estimate that the Expansion Tectonics forum effort has now drawn over 225 hours of effort from our members!"  WHAT HAVE WE, AND YOU SPECIFICALLY AS FACILITATOR, GOT TO SHOW FOR IT! What have you achieved for the 225 hours you have facilitated so far!
_If we try to cover all of this, we will get nothing in the end. The comparison table goal is to narrow down our selection of critical issues that NEED TO BE SOLVED. A critical issue is one that, if solved, make major headway, + or - for a theory.
_Selection of one or two CRITICAL ISSUES.
_Focused discussion / debate / summary papers / analysis on the critical issues.
_Wiki's and papers!
_The reason I have been pushing ET is it has some major advantages going for it:  James Maxlow just gave the conference's keynote on this; he's a world class scientist / expert on it, he will help us with it; and we have you to facilitate it. Until we find all of those credentials for the any of the other theories, they just need to stay back burner. In your list, you present some new names: Farrar, Choi. If they would be willing to join CNPS and become major contributors to a forum discussion, then we could expand your facilitator role (as long as we can get other "junior" facilitators to help you.) We need these key assets identified and committed FIRST before we launch the other topics, not after.
_Bruce

Re: Forum 6 & Wikis
Saturday, September 9, 2017 2:51 PM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Lloyd,
_{1} The problem with establishing a section 6.0 is that it would imply there was an overarching coordination of all the tectonic discussions. As I said, that is too much scope for any one person.
_{2} As for Wikis being "works in process", while they will be, we don't want to set them up to appear that way.  Eventually, we will publish Wikis for both the overall field of Tectonics, and each of the subtopics. But, each wiki has to appear to knowledgeably capture a snapshot of sound thinking.
_For example, the target conventional Wiki for the overall field is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectonics . This is a disaster. So, the goal of our "Critical Wiki" will be to reference the existing wiki as the "mainstream" viewpoint, and then tear it apart. To maintain credibility, we don't want to pitch it as an index of half-baked ideas. We want to present it as a reference document of "ongoing" research. These are two very different approaches. Your table would be the main structure for this Wiki. But, to be clear, this Critical Wiki would not be associated in any way with forum discussions. It will not be put together on the fly where the public will see the discussion and give an take behind it.
_The "work in process" is what the forum is for. That is what the facilitator is supposed to coordinate.
_As for drawing members to CNPS, a wiki is not a good way to do it. That has to be driven by an advertising approach, which displays a large number of wikis. We are not ready to do that, and don't anticipate being ready for at least a year. So much editing is needed.
_The wikis are open to the public.  So is the forum - for reading. So, that's already built in. As for public involvement, that's what my articles talk about. Uncontrolled public access to the internet is being "shut down". While the conventional Wikipedia is still "open to the public", a lot of rules have been added to control access. Every new member has to now go through 6 months of moderation. The Critical Wikis are NOT accessible for public editing. The process for developing them will go through the Forum. The Forum is also access controlled. While I agree with your point of "excitement" for many to access science in progress, the collapse of language and dialog throughout society - which also applies to 70% of the people on the email string - has limited what can be done. As you know, CNPS already has a Youtube channel, plus a weekly live video meeting. Both are largely failures. Why? Neither are generating involvement of many members or drawing new members. Why? That's what my articles are about.
_{3} Your approach has been discussed and rejected. There are very few members capable of producing an acceptable Wiki. Those that are will be asked to be editors. What ANY member can do is write their own blog, publish their own bio on the site, and make their own YouTube videos (for now). All the parts of your next sentence will be done: providing formats, providing guidance for acceptance, and passing judgement on submissions.
_{4} Yes, you are making good headway. But we are a long way from a Wiki page. Go back and look at your own "facilitator guidelines" on the coordination page. If you think you have enough for a Wiki, I'll help you get it started. But the process will not be open for public viewing. You should only focus on one or two Wikis to start with - i.e. maybe the 6.0 wiki and a 6.2 wiki, for example.
_{5} We must have a very different concept of what it means to "annotate" a bibliography. In its most simple form, the annotation is a collection of "keywords" that describe the topics the citation provides substantial material about. Each keyword would have a page number for the section of the document where that topic is best addressed. To give you an idea of a "full annotation", for two of my books, the annotation has over 1600 keywords!  Typically, there would be dozens or hundreds per book or paper. Give me an example of any citation that you think this has been done for? You may be thinking of the TOPIC sort for member papers. This isn't even a start. The board is trying to figure out how we even do it.
_{6} What do you mean by "The comparison table is basically complete." The only thing I can find on the forum is something called "Comparative Geology Special Project", and "Main Claims of Each Theory"; both are in "soft delete" - i.e. not visible to readers. You have just run a poll on it. You were correct in titling it a project. This is a good start, but much more to do. When it is done, that would be a good Wiki.
_{7} This paragraph captures more of the complexity of the tasks ahead. You said, "but the authors and supporters, not facilitators, should do most of the work." That's  true. But what you didn't say was, 'it is the facilitators roll to tell the members, specifically, what tasks they need to do and somehow get them to do that.'  This observation explains why the forum is not proceeding faster than it is. CNPS is, essentially, a VOLUNTEER operation. No one, including the board and executives, are paid for any effort. This is where something else you said comes in, "access to science in progress would be kind of exciting for many readers". That's the approach you need to count on to draw in support. You said the debates would do that. Why are you changing your viewpoint?
_{8} The idea of "focus groups" is good, but not new. We have them already, all over the place. The Board of Directors acts a one group. All the people at the conference were another. But you also already have that ability in your hands. Every facilitator should consider all the readers of their forum as a "targeted focus group". That's what leadership and facilitation are about. Every time you run a poll, that's what it's about. I've been asked to restart the CNPS newsletter. As soon as I get the final tools to do it, every newsletter will turn the whole membership into a focus group.
_Bruce

Re: Re-organizing
Tuesday, September 12, 2017 4:45 PM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Lloyd,
_Good review. Comments embedded.
_Bruce
__On Sep 12, 2017, at 1:43 PM, lloyd kinder wrote:
_L: Hi Bruce.
ORGANIZING. I spent the day yesterday reviewing our emails since early August. I posted the gist of them just for reference at http://forums.naturalphil...rg/showthread.php?tid=259 . I'm trying to reorganize everything, especially your many requests, so I can understand it all more clearly & decide how to act on it.
_Q&A. Instead of organizing Q&A like you want, a simple solution for helping readers find what they want is to let volunteers help readers do searches on the forums or in Wikis. To accomplish the Q&A organizing you want seems like it would require many people doing extremely long hours of very boring work. There's no end to questions that readers will have, which means the organizing work would never end.
_B2: I must not be communicating my goals well enough on this. The Q&A organization I envision should be simple to manage. So, we need to find out how we are seeing it differently. Here is a summary of what I am proposing. It is being described as though the process has been set up and is running:
    One or more pages (but not too many) are set up in the structured section as a Q&A SUMMARY. The entries are ordered by question. The questions are grouped by similarity.  Answers provided by posts to the discussion, for any question, are summarized and edited into the page right under their appropriate question.
    The facilitator needs to read and understand (if possible) ALL the posts made to the related forum topic.
    Each post can classified into one of the following 3 categories:
        It addresses an existing question.
        It poses a new question.
        It is something administrative, irrelevant, nonsense or off topic.
    If it addresses an existing question, AND it provides useful information, a very brief description of the point it makes should be added to the answer section under the question it addresses. Each addition includes a title, time and date code so the source post can be found.
    If it poses a new question, the facilitator needs to decide whether the question is appropriate for the discussion. If so, add a brief summary of the new question into the Q&A. If not, there are a number of responses that can be taken:
        Ignore it.
        Delete it.
        Tell the poster to post it somewhere else.
        Ask the poster to clarify it.
So, I don't see where the long hours of work come in.  As for getting volunteers to do searches, I don't think we would find any. That would clearly be boring work.
_OTHER FORUM TOPICS.
_B: There are other topics which have much larger member interest than ET. So, I think the best approach we can take is for me to set those up with the ideas I've been presenting to you. Viewing the results of different styles will give us evidence for how well they work. Try to keep a journal of what you try, and design the processes to produce some measurable metrics.
_L: I've started importing discussion of Franklin's Poselectron Sea theory etc to 5.3.5 Gravity section.
_B2: Why are you changing your focus from ET? If you want more people to post to ET, we have to do some marketing. But, if you feel the workload in ET is already to heavy, why are others needed?  If you have a good workload going in ET, you should already by formulating publishable papers and Wikis. What am I missing?
_L: PUBLIC ACCESS.
_B: The wikis are open to the public. So is the forum - for reading. So, that's already built in.
_L: I just checked and the forums are not accessible to the public. PS, I believe my Wiki idea was not half-baked.
_B2: Why do you say the forums are not accessible to the public? Yes, people have to register as guests, but anyone can do that and read the forum, without having to join CNPS.
_L: DEBATES.
_B: "Access to science in progress would be kind of exciting for many readers".
_That's the approach you need to count on to draw in support. You said the debates would do that. Why are you changing your viewpoint?
_L: The people I've contacted don't seem to want to join the CNPS forums, maybe partly because they can't see what it's like before registering. Also, when I talked about debates before, I usually meant discussions, which are much easier to carry out and get good info from and are probably more efficient.
_B2: It's important to be clear on each point you are making. Anyone can "see what the forum is like" before becoming a CNPS member. They can't read the forum unless they register as a guest. But it does not require them to submit any sensitive information; there is no charge; and registering does not commit them to anything. They don't get advertising or anything. If they want to participate in discussion, they do have to join - except for special cases. If there is a person with well established contributions to the topic, and their posts to discussions elsewhere prove they don't act like trolls, we can give them temporary access.
_L: ANNOTATION. What you call an annotated bibliography seems to be what I normally call an index. Have you checked it out to see how long it would take to do that? The most efficient method seems to be to make material searchable on the forums and in the Wikis.
_B2: The material on the forums and Wikis is searchable. The problem with that is, every time a person searches for some term that has already been searched before, it is a duplication of effort. The current goal is to get authors to annotate their own publications. The reward they get for that is inclusion on a list of annotated publications. It will quickly become clear that such publications get far more attention.
_L: COORDINATION.
_B: The "work in process" is what the forum is for. That is what the facilitator is supposed to coordinate.
_L: I've been focused on the Q&A and Comparison Table and promoting Discussions etc. So I haven't gotten to the Coordinating yet. Maybe I will after getting this all organized today or so.
_B2: You have enough in the comparison table for now.  It can be expanded later. Once we find out why the Q&A is taking so much effort, and change that, you should have the time for coordination.
- Good Day. Lloyd

Re: CNPS Progress - Forum
Wednesday, September 20, 2017 9:12 AM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Lloyd,
_While you replied to David with an offer to help with the website ( and thanks for that), your email was mostly about the forum geology effort. Let me answer those questions.
_CNPS still needs to formulate a concept for how to work with NCGT. From my viewpoint, CNPS has 2 goals: new members; getting key insights for ongoing forum discussions. In return, we would be providing NCGT with potential: new readers; new articles. The key is how to promote this.
_NCGT does not have members. It only has readers and editors. The CNPS Forum can not be opened to the public because it would be trashed by mainstream Trolls. So, the CNPS Forum has to remain open for "public" read-only, and interaction by CNPS members. The "trade" of value that I was thinking about could be: giving a handful of NCGT editors and special scientists temporary "visiting scholar" privileges on the forum. They are essentially equal to member permissions but under a separate group name (visiting scholars for example) so we can easily keep track of them. These scholars would be directed to support an ongoing forum discussion. Right now, Expansion Tectonics is the only major geology discussion. They could bring new ideas into that discussion, but only as critiques or support of ET. A item of value for them, related to other geology theories, would be an endorsement of their cooperation in the Newsletter. That might get them some readers. But adding new topics to the forum would totally be based on CNPS member requests.
_And to make my overall goal for the forum clear, it is to DO REAL SCIENCE. It's not just idle chatter like the email string, that get's lost in the internet landfill. The goal I'm trying to reach is: 1. make new discoveries; 2. publish them in multiple papers with CNPS member names as authors, and CNPS credit as the sponsor, coordinator; 3. publish related Wikis; 4. create related videos (etc. supporting Davids new push).
_So the only collaboration I can think of outside the ideas listed above would be some kind of discount deals. For example, CNPS members get 10% off NCGT publications, and NCGT readers get 10% off CNPS membership - something like that. But this is a totally emotional sell because of the low cost of both periodicals and CNPS membership. What ideas do you have for "close collaboration"? As I said, we can give NCGT and its new theories exposure in the Newsletter and the 1. Small forums sandbox. But any major push in the forum depends on CNPS member interest.
_Bruce


5
CNPS Structured Discussion / Plan & Potential Schedule
« on: August 13, 2017, 03:38:51 pm »
 Plan
 4.9 Debates! Use a new Structured Communication approach
 4.10 Science Court! like a Congressional hearing to gather information and organize information
 4.11 Implement the Critical Wikipedia: make a Critical Wikipedia page a goal for Structured Discussions in the Forum.
 4.12 <Get reviewers &> Start Peer Review <& use it for okaying CNPS Wiki topics>
 
 Potential Schedule
 "I+" means "I (Lloyd) and possibly others".
 .Aug10-20 (4.9, I+) Start organizing debates on Geology & ask people to join in debating or in observing
 .Aug10-31 (I+) List the main claims for some of the theories
 .Aug15-17 (Bruce + I) Try some practice debates in etherpad and chatroom
 .Aug20-31 (I + debaters) Try etherpads and chatrooms and copy chat highlights to Forum
 .Sep1-15 (4.10+4.12, I + others) Evaluate debate claims = peer review
 .Sep15 (4.11, I+) Create a Wiki page from info from debates>

6
CNPS Structured Discussion / Comparing ET with Other Geology Theories
« on: August 08, 2017, 08:33:37 am »
Goal is to make a Table that compares Expansion Tectonic theory with other Geological theories.

First, I'm listing CNPS papers on ET.

This is the present alphabetic arrangement with possible main topics added before each title. Some of the titles may be miscategorized. After this will be the list arranged alphabetically by subject.

Category: Expansion Tectonics

__A
_Africa) _On The Ages of African Land-Surfaces
_Galaxies) _An Analysis of 900 Rotation Curves of Southern Sky Spiral Galaxies: Are the Dynamics Constrained to Discrete States?
_Tectonics) _Architectonics of the Earth
_Satellites) _Are Artificial Satellites Orbits Influenced by an Expanding Earth?
_Atlas) _Atlas of Continental Displacement, 200 Million Years to the Present
__B
_Biogeography) _Biogeography in a Changing World
__C
_ZPEnergy) _Cosmology and the Zero Point Energy
_ZPEnergy<?>) _Cosmology and the Zerto Point Energy
_Theories) _Creeds of Physics
_ContainerSpace) _A Critical Note Concerning Conventional Container Space Concepts
_Crust) _Crustal development and sea level : with special reference to the geological development of southwest Japan and adjacent seas
__D
_Dinosaurs) _Dinosaurs and the Expanding Earth - Second edition (ebook)
_QM<?>) _Discrete Time Realizations of Quantum Mechanics and their Possible Experimental Tests
__E
_Palaeo-Magnetism) _Early Palaeozoic Palaeo-Magnetism and Biogeography - Plate tectonics or Expansion?
_GeoComplexity) _Earth Complexity vs. Plate Tectonic Simplicity
_Expansion) _Is the Earth Expanding (Dehnt sich die Erde aus?)
_NebHyp+Subduction) _Earth IS Expanding Rapidly: Kant's Nebular Hypothesis and Subduction are False
_ObjectionsSolved) _Earth Expansion Major Objections Solved
_Earthquakes) _Earth Expansion and the Prediction of Earthquakes and Volcanicism
_MassIncrease) _Earth Expansion Requires Increase in Mass
_PermianClimate) _The Earth Expansion Theory and the Climatic History of the Lower Permian
_Universe) _Earth, Universe, Cosmos
_Expansion) _Earth is Unquestionably Growing and Expanding
_Evidence) _Education Concept of Earths Expansion: Main Grounds, Space-Geodetic and Paleomagnetic Evidence, Metallogenic Consequences
_Electrodynamic) _Electrodynamic Origin of Gravitational Forces
_Galaxies) _Empirical Evidence on the Creation of Galaxies and Quasars
_Electrodynamics) _Evidence For Weber-Wesley Electrodynamics
_Expansion) _An Evolutionary Earth Expansion Hypothesis
_Continents) _The Expanded Earth: The Continents Positioned by Radical Movement Due to Expansion; a Craftsmans Look at the Globe
_Expansion) _Expanding Earth?
_Expansion) _The Expanding Earth
_Expansion) _Why the Expanding Earth?
_Sea-FloorSpreading) _An Expanding Earth on the Basis of Sea-Floor Spreading and Subduction Rates
_Causes) _The Expanding Earth: Evidence, Causes and Effects
_Gravity) _The Expanding Earth: Evidence From Temporary Gravity Fields and Space-Geodetic Data
_Gyrotation) _The Expanding Earth: Is the Inflation of Heavenly Bodies Caused by Reoriented Particles under Gyrotation Fields?
_InnerCore) _The Expanding Earth : The Inflation of Heavenly Bodies Demands for a Compression-Free Inner Core
_Catastrophism) _Expanding Earth, Or Natural Catastrophism
_Expansion) _The Expanding Earth: A Sound Idea for the New Millenium
_Cause) _Our Expanding Earth, the Ultimate Cause
_Overview) _Expansion Tectonics: An Overview
__F
_Universe) _Finite Theory of the Universe, Dark Matter Disproof and Faster-Than-Light Speed
_Fixed-Earth) _Fixed-Earth and Expanding-Earth Theories -- Time for a Paradigm Shift? -- Version 2
_Cartography) _Fossils, frogs, floating islands and expanding Earth in changing-radius cartography
_Expansion) _The Fourth Revolt
_Fuels) _Fuels: A New Theory (Second Edition)
__G
_Causes) _Geological-Geophysical Proofs and Possible Causes of Earth Expansion
_Eduction) _Global Eduction Tectonics of the Expanding Earth
_Explanation) _Global Expansion Tectonics - A More Rational Explanation
_PhysicsChallenge) _Global Expansion Tectonics: A Significant Challenge for Physics
_Models) _Global Models of the Expanding Earth
_InflatingSun) _On the Gravitational Constant of Our Inflating Sun and On the Origin of the Stars' Lifecycle
_Gravito-MagneticInflation) _The Gravito-Magnetic Inflation of Rotating Bodies and the Nature of Mass and Matter
_Gravitomagnetism) _Gravitomagnetism: Successes in Explaining the Cosmos
_Earthquakes) _Great And Old Earthquakes Against Great And Old Paradigms ? Paradoxes, Historical Roots, Alternative Answers
_Expansion) _The Growing and Developing Earth
_Expansion) _The Growing Earth
__H
_Hydrocarbons) _Hydrocarbons in the Context of a Solid, Quantified, Growing and Radiating Earth
__I
_Sphere-Cylinder) _Interbasis "Sphere-Cylinder" Expansions for the Oscillator in the Three-Dimensional Space of Constant Positive Curvature
__L
_Expansion) _The Land of No Horizon
_Subduction) _Is Large Scale Subduction Made Unlikely By The Mediterranean Deep Seismicity?
_Impacts) _Lava Flows from Disruption of Crust at the Antipode of Large Meteorite Impacts
_Relativity<?>) _Le Verrier Historical Mistake that Created Relativity Stupidity
_Light) _Light Propagation in an Expanding Universe
_AstronomicalObjects) _Limitations on Viewing Distant Astronomical Objects
__M
_Hoax) _Mankind's Greatest Hoax
_Plumes) _Mantle Plumes and Dynamics of the Earth Interior - Towards a New Model
_SunVelocity) _Marinov's Toothed-Wheels Measurement of Absolute Velocity of Solar System
_Mountains) _On the Mechanism of Mountain Building and Folding
_Plates) _Migrating Fossils, Moving Plates and an Expanding Earth
__N
_EarthInterior) _A New Dynamic Conception Of The Internal Constitution Of The Earth
_BlackHoles<?>) _The No-Hair Theorem Parameters can be Reduced to solely the Black Hole's Specific Angular Momentum
_RottnestIsland) _Nuteeriat: Nut Trees, the Expanding Earth, Rottnest Island, and All That
__O
_Granite) _The Origin of Granite and Continental Masses in an Expanding Earth
_Mountains) _The Origin of Mountains
_UniversalSystems) _Origins of Universal Systems
_OrogenicModel) _An Orogenic Model Consistent with Earth Expansion
_Hilgenberg) _Ott Christoph Hilgenberg in twentieth-century geophysics
__P
_Palaeomagnetic) _Palaeomagnetic Evidence Relevant To A Change In The Earth's Radius
_Palaeopoles) _Palaeopoles on an Expanding Earth: A Comparison Between Synthetic and Real Data Sets
_Comprehensive) _Five Para-Myths and One Comprehensive Proposition in Geology
_Redshifts) _Periodicity in Extragalactic Redshifts
_Philosophy) _A Philosophy of the Expanding Earth and Universe
_SouthernHemisphere) _Physical Explanation for Greater Earth Expansion in the Southern Hemisphere
_Diamagnetism) _The Pivoted Current Element and Diamagnetism
_Expansion) _Is Planet Earth Expanding?
_Eocene) _Planet Earth Expanding and Eocene Tectonic Event
_Dynamics) _Beyond Plate Tectonics: 'Plate' Dynamics
_PT) _Plate Tectonics and this Expanding Earth
_PT) _Is Plate Tectonics Standing the Test of Time
_PT) _Plate Tectonics Subducted
_Microphysics) _On the Possibility of a Rationalistic Approach to Microphysics
_DarkMatter) _Possible Relation Between Earth Expansion and Dark Matter
_DeepDrilling) _The Primordially Hydridic Character of our Planet and Proving it by Deep Drilling
_Plates) _Principles of Plate Movements on the Expanding Earth
__R
_Expansion) _Rapid Earth Expansion: An Eclectic View
_IncreasingGravity) _Relationship Between Gravity and Evolution: The Theory of the Increasing of Gravity
_PolarMotion) _Releaions Among Expanding earth, TPW, and Polar Motion
__S
_Test) _A Simple Physical Test of Earth Expansion
_SunVelocity) _A Simplified Repetition of Silvertooth's Measurement of the Absolute Velocity of the Solar System
_Expansion) _Once a Smaller Earth
_Expansion) _The Solid, Quantified, Growing and Radiating Earth
_Electron) _On the Space-time Structure of the Electron
_Planets) _The Spacing of Planets: The Solution to a 400-Year Mystery
_Subduction) _Subduction: The Extent and Duration
_Superluminal<?>) _On Superluminal Velocities
_ST) _Surge Tectonics: A New Hypothesis of Global Geodynamics
__T
_DeepSeismicData) _The tectonic structure of the continental lithosphere considered in the light of the expanding Earth theory? a proposal of a new interpretation of deep seismic data
_IslandArcs) _Tension - Gravitational Model of Island Arcs
_Expansion?) _Terra non Firma Earth
_PalaeomagneticData) _A Test of Earth Expansion Hypotheses by Means of Palaeomagnetic Data
_Theories) _Theories of the Earth and Universe: A History of Dogma in the Earth Sciences
_Expansion) _The Theory of the Expanding Earth
_Thermal) _The Thermal Expansion of the Earth
__V
_Unorthodoxy) _A Venture in Unorthodoxy
_Petroleum) _Voyage of Discovery: A History of Ideas About the Earth with a New Understanding of the Global Resources of Water and Petroleum and the Problems of Climate Change
__W
_Sea-floors) _Wandering Continents and Spreading Sea-floors on an Expanding Earth

-------------------------------------------------------

Category: Expansion Tectonics (by Subject)

_Africa) _On The Ages of African Land-Surfaces
_AstronomicalObjects) _Limitations on Viewing Distant Astronomical Objects
_Atlas) _Atlas of Continental Displacement, 200 Million Years to the Present
_Biogeography) _Biogeography in a Changing World
_BlackHoles<?>) _The No-Hair Theorem Parameters can be Reduced to solely the Black Hole's Specific Angular Momentum
_Cartography) _Fossils, frogs, floating islands and expanding Earth in changing-radius cartography
_Catastrophism) _Expanding Earth, Or Natural Catastrophism
_Cause) _Our Expanding Earth, the Ultimate Cause
_Causes) _Geological-Geophysical Proofs and Possible Causes of Earth Expansion
_Causes) _The Expanding Earth: Evidence, Causes and Effects
_Comprehensive) _Five Para-Myths and One Comprehensive Proposition in Geology
_ContainerSpace) _A Critical Note Concerning Conventional Container Space Concepts
_Continents) _The Expanded Earth: The Continents Positioned by Radical Movement Due to Expansion; a Craftsmans Look at the Globe
_Crust) _Crustal development and sea level : with special reference to the geological development of southwest Japan and adjacent seas
_DarkMatter) _Possible Relation Between Earth Expansion and Dark Matter
_DeepDrilling) _The Primordially Hydridic Character of our Planet and Proving it by Deep Drilling
_DeepSeismicData) _The tectonic structure of the continental lithosphere considered in the light of the expanding Earth theory? a proposal of a new interpretation of deep seismic data
_Diamagnetism) _The Pivoted Current Element and Diamagnetism
_Dinosaurs) _Dinosaurs and the Expanding Earth - Second edition (ebook)
_Dynamics) _Beyond Plate Tectonics: 'Plate' Dynamics
_EarthInterior) _A New Dynamic Conception Of The Internal Constitution Of The Earth
_Earthquakes) _Earth Expansion and the Prediction of Earthquakes and Volcanicism
_Earthquakes) _Great And Old Earthquakes Against Great And Old Paradigms ? Paradoxes, Historical Roots, Alternative Answers
_Eduction) _Global Eduction Tectonics of the Expanding Earth
_Electrodynamic) _Electrodynamic Origin of Gravitational Forces
_Electrodynamics) _Evidence For Weber-Wesley Electrodynamics
_Electron) _On the Space-time Structure of the Electron
_Eocene) _Planet Earth Expanding and Eocene Tectonic Event
_Evidence) _Education Concept of Earths Expansion: Main Grounds, Space-Geodetic and Paleomagnetic Evidence, Metallogenic Consequences
_Expansion?) _Terra non Firma Earth
_Expansion) _An Evolutionary Earth Expansion Hypothesis
_Expansion) _Earth is Unquestionably Growing and Expanding
_Expansion) _Expanding Earth?
_Expansion) _Is Planet Earth Expanding?
_Expansion) _Is the Earth Expanding (Dehnt sich die Erde aus?)
_Expansion) _Once a Smaller Earth
_Expansion) _Rapid Earth Expansion: An Eclectic View
_Expansion) _The Expanding Earth
_Expansion) _The Expanding Earth: A Sound Idea for the New Millenium
_Expansion) _The Fourth Revolt
_Expansion) _The Growing and Developing Earth
_Expansion) _The Growing Earth
_Expansion) _The Land of No Horizon
_Expansion) _The Solid, Quantified, Growing and Radiating Earth
_Expansion) _The Theory of the Expanding Earth
_Expansion) _Why the Expanding Earth?
_Explanation) _Global Expansion Tectonics - A More Rational Explanation
_Fixed-Earth) _Fixed-Earth and Expanding-Earth Theories -- Time for a Paradigm Shift? -- Version 2
_Fuels) _Fuels: A New Theory (Second Edition)
_Galaxies) _An Analysis of 900 Rotation Curves of Southern Sky Spiral Galaxies: Are the Dynamics Constrained to Discrete States?
_Galaxies) _Empirical Evidence on the Creation of Galaxies and Quasars
_GeoComplexity) _Earth Complexity vs. Plate Tectonic Simplicity
_Granite) _The Origin of Granite and Continental Masses in an Expanding Earth
_Gravito-MagneticInflation) _The Gravito-Magnetic Inflation of Rotating Bodies and the Nature of Mass and Matter
_Gravitomagnetism) _Gravitomagnetism: Successes in Explaining the Cosmos
_Gravity) _The Expanding Earth: Evidence From Temporary Gravity Fields and Space-Geodetic Data
_Gyrotation) _The Expanding Earth: Is the Inflation of Heavenly Bodies Caused by Reoriented Particles under Gyrotation Fields?
_Hilgenberg) _Ott Christoph Hilgenberg in twentieth-century geophysics
_Hoax) _Mankind's Greatest Hoax
_Hydrocarbons) _Hydrocarbons in the Context of a Solid, Quantified, Growing and Radiating Earth
_Impacts) _Lava Flows from Disruption of Crust at the Antipode of Large Meteorite Impacts
_IncreasingGravity) _Relationship Between Gravity and Evolution: The Theory of the Increasing of Gravity
_InflatingSun) _On the Gravitational Constant of Our Inflating Sun and On the Origin of the Stars' Lifecycle
_InnerCore) _The Expanding Earth : The Inflation of Heavenly Bodies Demands for a Compression-Free Inner Core
_IslandArcs) _Tension - Gravitational Model of Island Arcs
_Light) _Light Propagation in an Expanding Universe
_MassIncrease) _Earth Expansion Requires Increase in Mass
_Microphysics) _On the Possibility of a Rationalistic Approach to Microphysics
_Models) _Global Models of the Expanding Earth
_Mountains) _On the Mechanism of Mountain Building and Folding
_Mountains) _The Origin of Mountains
_NebHyp+Subduction) _Earth IS Expanding Rapidly: Kant's Nebular Hypothesis and Subduction are False
_ObjectionsSolved) _Earth Expansion Major Objections Solved
_OrogenicModel) _An Orogenic Model Consistent with Earth Expansion
_Overview) _Expansion Tectonics: An Overview
_Palaeo-Magnetism) _Early Palaeozoic Palaeo-Magnetism and Biogeography - Plate tectonics or Expansion?
_Palaeomagnetic) _Palaeomagnetic Evidence Relevant To A Change In The Earth's Radius
_PalaeomagneticData) _A Test of Earth Expansion Hypotheses by Means of Palaeomagnetic Data
_Palaeopoles) _Palaeopoles on an Expanding Earth: A Comparison Between Synthetic and Real Data Sets
_PermianClimate) _The Earth Expansion Theory and the Climatic History of the Lower Permian
_Petroleum) _Voyage of Discovery: A History of Ideas About the Earth with a New Understanding of the Global Resources of Water and Petroleum and the Problems of Climate Change
_Philosophy) _A Philosophy of the Expanding Earth and Universe
_PhysicsChallenge) _Global Expansion Tectonics: A Significant Challenge for Physics
_Planets) _The Spacing of Planets: The Solution to a 400-Year Mystery
_Plates) _Migrating Fossils, Moving Plates and an Expanding Earth
_Plates) _Principles of Plate Movements on the Expanding Earth
_Plumes) _Mantle Plumes and Dynamics of the Earth Interior - Towards a New Model
_PolarMotion) _Releaions Among Expanding earth, TPW, and Polar Motion
_PT) _Is Plate Tectonics Standing the Test of Time
_PT) _Plate Tectonics and this Expanding Earth
_PT) _Plate Tectonics Subducted
_QM<?>) _Discrete Time Realizations of Quantum Mechanics and their Possible Experimental Tests
_Redshifts) _Periodicity in Extragalactic Redshifts
_Relativity<?>) _Le Verrier Historical Mistake that Created Relativity Stupidity
_RottnestIsland) _Nuteeriat: Nut Trees, the Expanding Earth, Rottnest Island, and All That
_Satellites) _Are Artificial Satellites Orbits Influenced by an Expanding Earth?
_Sea-floors) _Wandering Continents and Spreading Sea-floors on an Expanding Earth
_Sea-FloorSpreading) _An Expanding Earth on the Basis of Sea-Floor Spreading and Subduction Rates
_SouthernHemisphere) _Physical Explanation for Greater Earth Expansion in the Southern Hemisphere
_Sphere-Cylinder) _Interbasis "Sphere-Cylinder" Expansions for the Oscillator in the Three-Dimensional Space of Constant Positive Curvature
_ST) _Surge Tectonics: A New Hypothesis of Global Geodynamics
_Subduction) _Is Large Scale Subduction Made Unlikely By The Mediterranean Deep Seismicity?
_Subduction) _Subduction: The Extent and Duration
_SunVelocity) _A Simplified Repetition of Silvertooth's Measurement of the Absolute Velocity of the Solar System
_SunVelocity) _Marinov's Toothed-Wheels Measurement of Absolute Velocity of Solar System
_Superluminal<?>) _On Superluminal Velocities
_Tectonics) _Architectonics of the Earth
_Test) _A Simple Physical Test of Earth Expansion
_Theories) _Creeds of Physics
_Theories) _Theories of the Earth and Universe: A History of Dogma in the Earth Sciences
_Thermal) _The Thermal Expansion of the Earth
_UniversalSystems) _Origins of Universal Systems
_Universe) _Earth, Universe, Cosmos
_Universe) _Finite Theory of the Universe, Dark Matter Disproof and Faster-Than-Light Speed
_Unorthodoxy) _A Venture in Unorthodoxy
_ZPEnergy) _Cosmology and the Zero Point Energy
_ZPEnergy<?>) _Cosmology and the Zerto Point Energy

7
Mike Messages / Re: Robert on Collaboration
« on: June 29, 2017, 11:16:28 pm »

Subject: Catastrophism
Tue, May 23, 2017 12:30 pm
To: <mike@newgeology.us>
_Thanks a lot for the quotes you gave me about crustal shortening etc.
_I asked Robert to discuss our disagreements on catastrophism, because I think it would settle our differences.
_I also started a paper on Impact-Flood Catastrophism on the CNPS forum at http://forums.naturalphil.../forumdisplay.php?fid=127
_Here's what I wrote. Do you suggest any corrections or additions to the list?
_IMPACT-FLOOD CATASTROPHISM: ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS & DEFINITIONS
_Planetoid: any rocky body in outer space: i.e. meteor, comet, asteroid, moon, rocky planet
_Recent Planetoidal Near-Collision/s: planetoid/s coming close enough to Earth to raise high tides
_Megatides/Megatsunamis: tides/tsunamis high enough to deposit sedimentary rock strata
_Impacts: fall of planetoids on Earth's surface
_Megasequence: conforming strata between unconforming strata
_Megasequences Deposition: deposition of conforming strata
_Supercontinent: large continent composed of smaller continents
_Supercontinent Breakup: breakup of a supercontinent into smaller continents due to impact/s
_Impact Orogeny: mountain uplift caused by continent breakup
_Impact Volcanism: volcanic eruptions caused by impacts
_Radiometric Dating: using radioactive decay in rock to estimate the time it formed
_Radiometric Dating Errors: errors in estimating ages of rock due to changing decay rates
_Gradualism: the theory that large-scale geological features change very gradually, not rapidly
_Gradualism Errors: overlooking the fact that large-scale cataclysms can cause rapid geological changes
_Fossilization: formation of fossils during strata deposition
_Atmosphere Shrinkage: shrinkage of the atmosphere due to rapid losses to space
_Gigantism: tendency of plants and animals to grow to giant size
_End of Gigantism: loss of conditions favoring gigantism
_Ice Age: time of widespread glaciation
_Ancient Myths: ancient anthropomorphic reports about celestial conditions before, during and after cataclysms
_Advanced Ancient Civilization: high tech civilization in ancient times, destroyed by cataclysms

---

Wednesday, May 24, 2017 7:30 PM
From: mike@newgeology.us
_You are taking real initiative in this project.  As requested, my wording of your list is below.
_IMPACT GENERATED FLOOD CATASTROPHISM - ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS & DEFINITIONS
_Planetoid: any rocky body in outer space: i.e. meteor, comet, asteroid, moon, rocky planet
_Planetoid Near-Collision/s: the possibility that one or more planetoids came close enough to Earth to raise high tides
_Megatides/Megatsunamis: tides/tsunamis large enough to deposit sedimentary rock strata
_Impacts: fall of planetoids onto Earth's surface
_Megasequence: conforming strata between unconformities
_Megasequence Deposition: deposition of conforming strata
_Supercontinent: large continent composed of smaller landmasses
_Supercontinent Breakup: breakup of a supercontinent into separate continents
_Impact Orogeny: mountain uplift caused by rapid continent breakup following a giant planetoid impact
_Impact Volcanism: volcanic eruption caused directly or indirectly by planetoid impact
_Radiometric Dating: using radioactive decay and its products to determine age
_Radiometric Dating Errors: errors due to invalid assumptions in radiometric dating
_Gradualism: the theory that large-scale geological features change very gradually, not rapidly; the present is the key to the past
_Gradualism Errors: overlooking the influence of cataclysms on geology
_Fossilization: burial of organisms and/or evidence of their activity during strata deposition
_Atmosphere Shrinkage: dissipation of the atmosphere due to rapid loss of gas into outer space
_Gigantism: tendency of plants and animals to grow to giant size
_End of Gigantism: loss of conditions favoring gigantism
_Ice Age: period of extensive glaciation
_Ancient Celestial Catastrophic Myths: ancient human stories about celestial conditions before, during and after cataclysms
_Advanced Ancient Civilization: proposed high tech civilization in ancient times, allegedly destroyed by cataclysm

---

_Hi Mike. Robert Farrar was discussing granite a couple weeks ago. I lived in New Hampshire a few years ago and noticed that their granite seems to be metamorphosed sedimentary rock. Do you know why sometimes the sedimentary rocks in mountain ranges metamorphosed, while most of the time, I think, they remained sedimentary? Where the strata are folded in mountain ranges, would those be metamorphosed, or not? My impression was that they're sedimentary, but I'm starting to suspect that they must metamorphose. Do you agree or not? Could most or all granites be metamorphosed sedimentary rock?
_Following are passages from a recent post by Robert in a different thread. Could you comment on what you agree and disagree with? He seems to contradict himself a little regarding sedimentary rock.
_Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics
Postby Robertus Maximus » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:10 pm
_... how ... do we explain the dual nature of the Earth’s crust?
_... I have suggested that Earth may well contain a hollow
_such a hollow would serve as a reservoir for hydrogen, methane, ammonia, silane etc.
_Results from the Kola Super-deep borehole show a counter-intuitive exponential increase of rock porosity with depth.
_Such porosity would enable elements from deep within the Earth to migrate to the surface.
_Near the surface upwelling methane is gradually oxidised CH4 + O2 = 2H2O + C, leaving behind vast deposits of oil and coal.
_... Clearly upwelling methane contributes to Earth’s water budget.
_The principal ... volcanic gases ... are H2O, H2,CH4 (and other hydrocarbons), O2, CO, CO2" [etc].
_It would seem that most volcanic eruptions have less to do with the popular picture of molten rock and more to do with upwelling methane reacting with plentiful amounts of oxygen in the Earth’s crust.
_Upwelling silane too, is oxidised as it approaches the surface....

_The origin of the ‘continental crust’
_Basalt is one of the most common rock types found on Earth and ... on all the terrestrial planets.
_... On Earth the largest occurrences of basalt are on the ocean floor which is almost completely made up of basalt.
_On the continents themselves we find outpourings of rock normally associated with the ocean floor - basalt is the rock most typical of large igneous provinces.
_... “Ancient Precambrian basalts are usually only found in fold and thrust belts, and are often heavily metamorphosed.”
_... Upon the Earth’s basaltic foundation we find features not found on the other terrestrial planets, the continents.
_We have previously seen that a product of the silane - oxygen reaction is silica
_is it possible that the continents themselves formed from the outgassing of silicon dioxide?
_We could picture the early Earth as being Venus-like in its topographic appearance with very little relief.
_Over time outpourings of silica collected, perhaps around localised elevated regions of the basaltic ‘primary’ crust or areas undergoing outgassing.
_Water collected initially in depressions in the basaltic ‘primary’ crust.
_... Modern day analogous processes would include deep sea vents, particularly ‘white smokers’ which emit minerals comprising barium, calcium and silicon.
_Such vents are known to develop ‘chimneys’,
_geomorphic and geologic structures on Earth today show a resemblance to ‘chimneys’ formed long-ago;
_they are variously described as ‘Limestone pillars’, ’Sand-columns’, ’Sandstone pillars’, ‘Pipes’, and perhaps we could include ‘Monadnocks’ and ‘Inselbergs’.
_On land we find geysers leave similar silica deposits.
_In North Africa today we find a geological feature known as the ‘Richat Structure’.
_... Its centre consists of a siliceous breccia covering an area that is at least 30 kilometres (19 mi) in diameter.
_“Exposed within the interior of the Richat Structure are a variety of intrusive and extrusive igneous rocks.
_They include rhyolitic volcanic rocks, gabbros, carbonatites and kimberlites. The rhyolitic rocks consist of lava flows and hydrothermally altered tuffaceous rocks that are part of two distinct eruptive centers, which are interpreted to be the eroded remains of two maars.
_... These intrusive igneous rocks are interpreted as indicating the presence of a large alkaline igneous intrusion that currently underlies the Richat Structure and created it by uplifting the overlying rock.

_... Sedimentary Basins and the Precambrian
_... In light of what I have suggested above is it possible that sedimentary basins are not ‘sedimentary’ at all, rather they are ‘outgassing’ or ‘eruptive’ basins?
_... Lowermost ‘sedimentary’ rocks in such basins we can reclassify as ‘pre-sedimentary’ rocks, lacking fossils geologists would assign them to the Precambrian.
_Upper layers would consist of re-worked ‘pre-sedimentary’ rocks, as sedimentary rocks that contain fossils geologists would assign these rock formations to the Phanerozoic.

_... Greenstone Belts
_... “Greenstone belts are primarily formed of volcanic rocks, dominated by basalt, with minor sedimentary rocks inter-leaving the volcanic formations.
_Through time, the degree of sediment contained within greenstone belts has risen, and the amount of ultramafic rock (either as layered intrusions or as volcanic komatiite) has decreased.
_“Sedimentary sequences within greenstone belts comprise both clastic (e.g., conglomerate, quartz arenite, shale and graywacke) and chemically precipitated (e.g., banded iron formation and chert) components.
_... The observed increase in sediment and decrease in basalt type rocks “through time” is explained by what I have proposed here i.e. accumulated silica outgassing.
...

8
CNPS Structured Discussion / BN-LK Discussion Highlights
« on: June 14, 2017, 11:05:08 pm »
__« April 22, 2017, 01:20:31 pm »
Major Unexplained Science Facts & Alternative Models
LK Ideas for Organizing a Wiki
1. Plans to Improve the Scientific Method
2. List Major Fields of Science
3. List Major Science Facts & Flaws for Main CNPS Wiki Topics
(See Sample Wiki thread.)
Paraphrasing Bruce's Forum/Wiki Ideas
a. Tell readers the goal is to produce one or more papers and Wikis.
- Ask readers to submit other flaws &/or alternative theories
b. To structure the topic put it into the forum as 3 co-located threads.
- Create an outline of the local discussion & put it in your “coordination” post.
- Use Mark’s MIT MAP concepts: Questions ( ? ),  Ideas ( lightbulb),  pros and cons (thumbs up and down ) etc.
Aether Lattice Holes Theory
DEMOCRACY:
__« April 23, 2017, 11:37:33 am »
Invite: TB Members possibly interested in helping Improve Science:
bdw000, BirdyNumNums, Brigit Bara, Chan Rasjid, chut, Cubit32, D_Archer, dd6, Elder, fractal-geoff, GaryN, GenesisAria, Grey Cloud, jacmac, JCG, JeffreyW, JHL, jimmcginn, Keith Ness, Kuldebar, Melusine, philalethes, Phorce, phyllotaxis, Pi sees, Plasmatic, pln2bz, popster1, RayTomes, Roshi, Rushthezeppelin, saul, seasmith, Solar, Sparky, StefanR, trevbus, Webbman, Zelectric, ZenMonkeyNZ, Zyxzevn
__« April 23, 2017, 11:50:36 am »
RESOURCES
__« May 07, 2017, 12:08:53 pm »
<BN: Phone
Catastrophism Topic
Expansion Tectonics
So, a way to find people for your ideas is to post a request on that forum
A second way is to compose an article for the monthly newsletter
getting the newsletter, send a note directly to David de Hilster
Third, there is a blog on the main website
Re sedimentary rock strata, first do some literature analysis on the history of this topic
LK's List of Topics
I put a new forum in there for you: The Scientific Method.
The list of facts and flaws is one of the issues I wanted to talk to you about directly.
__May 8, 9AM
do a test right here on FUNDAY
__« May 11, 2017, 05:14:55 pm »
Message to Dave Talbott re Wiki
I started a thread called, Need Data to Help Create Alternative Science Wiki
I have gotten a Catastrophism board and E.U. boards etc at the CNPS forum.
__Postby Lloyd » Thu May 11, 2017 4:06 pm
Initial preferred topics for discussion are:
Catastrophism: Ancient Global Cataclysm
Mythology: Ancient Myths
Earth Sciences: Global Tectonics
Astronomy: Solar Science
__« May 21, 2017, 01:56:44 pm »
>BN: the CNPS Wiki a collection of alternative science papers
would help to establish a system for evaluating them
Making the list of essential elements of each theory or claim
then a process for evaluating each element
CNPS could publicize the best theories
__Sunday, May 21, 2017 2:45 PM
<Bruce: find me ANY MM reports
system for evaluating is my next TOP priority
publishing a summary of what elements of ALL the papers were good breakthroughs
reward great Peer Reviewers
Peer Review Guidelines [from web search]
__5/23/17 8:50AM
>Bruce: date on the threads
experiment with "peer reviewers"
__« May 23, 2017, 09:21:11 pm »
"sticky" function
date labeling
email string
"probable" reviews would give a theory a high place in a WIKI
summary reference to the dissents
many theories submitted
PHOTON; challenge this definition
prioritizing
__5/23 9 PM
>Bruce: date labeling
P.U.T structured format
invite members
Space Lattice Theory
rate P.U.T.
__Wednesday, May 24, 2017 4:38 PM
<Bruce: suggest a better title
membership fee
Lattice Theory
rating a few P.U.T. Elements
__5/24 7:33 PM
Hi Bruce: discussion thread
I started 3 threads for "theory rating"
I included the reasons for my I-ratings
__« May 26, 2017, 07:28:59 pm »
<BN: Inviting members
"discussion summary" as a "status report"
"coordination": coordination of the discussion
"external inputs": to focus or promote the discussion
"documentation"
Possible solution
__May 26, 2017, at 12:55 AM
>Bruce: Why wouldn't each topic in the forum have a Working Paper thread?
__Friday, May 26, 2017 10:39 AM
<Bruce: multiple purposes for the structured forum
break down disagreements among members
structure to improve all discussions
separate resolution
member recruitment, CNPS marketing, promotion of papers, and expansion of conferences
coordinating scientific research
cover the needed structure issues
__5/26 7:11 PM
Hi Bruce: your structured forum goals
A. Attempt to resolve disagreements among members:
B. Set up bibliographies to reduce newbies' questions:
C. Each section develop goals, like doing experiments, writing papers ... :
D. Improve & promote CNPS & scientific research:
CNPS forum survey eventually
1st - purpose, status report & assignments
2nd - wiki working paper
3rd - bibliography & important outside viewpoints
discussion section
__Saturday, May 27, 2017 5:33 PM
<Bruce: Important threads; using a "sticky" function
bibliographies < many forums making a few contributions each
8. Definitions
__Wednesday, May 31, 2017 7:25 AM
<Bruce: I can't do the rating without details
I don't find value in the a simple rating scale
help locate interested people
__5/31) 11AM)
>Bruce: "help locate interested people
encyclopedic list of good alternative theories
PUT rating I, which was helpful
__6/1 - 11AM
>Bruce: let members start their own threads in any of those 9 sections
let moderators request moderator-controlled threads
consulted with any forum experts?
__« June 02, 2017, 09:55:43 pm »
Hi Bruce: start one or two threads in section 1
your critique of my 8-point scientific method
repeats of the MM experiment
5-part idea
Store raw data
Self-organize teams to rectify false media claims
corporate greed
__Monday, June 5, 2017 1:45 PM
<BN: Members can post new Threads, but not "forums"
email notification
MM experiment repeats
raw data
__« June 09, 2017, 02:29:14 pm »
REVIEW PROCESS
__Friday, June 9, 2017 10:00 AM
<Bruce:  I ratings vs P (probable) " ratings
guide a number of members to review them in depth
be published by CNPS + indexed
__Fri 6/9 2:23PM
>Bruce: look for fellow reviewers?
essential elements of P.U.T. that most interest me

9
CNPS Structured Discussion / REVIEW PROCESS
« on: June 09, 2017, 02:29:14 pm »
Friday, June 9, 2017 10:00 AM
<Bruce
_" I " means "improbable". I said I'd rate all his ideas as improbable because his fundamentals were improbable. Therefore, all the concepts that use them are on shaky ground. As for explanations, the long papers I attached provides my explanations.
_I don't understand why you said, "I figured the I ratings are the main ones for theorists to consider for improving their theories." I would expect you to focus on the " P (probable) " ratings. My reasoning for this is, we have to assume we are looking at a new theory (P.U.T. in this case) because it breaks new ground. Ground breaking papers are often total nonsense. That's what we want to rule out. BUT, if there are some good ideas in there, I would expect reviewers to rate them P.
_The point I was trying to make to you was that just having people create a ratings list doesn't capture enough detail to guide a facilitator to commit other people's effort to review a paper. Below, you said something that is more in keeping with this point. You said, "what I and two others agreed are probably the main essential ideas of P.U.T." That is, some people (let's say you and the other two for this case) who the society believes are sound thinkers, pick out some promising concepts and guide a number of members to review them in depth. The result of that review would be one of your papers. However, it would also have other outcomes related to the structured approach:
    The result paper would be published by CNPS
    The paper would be indexed with associations to Mathis, P.U.T. , and the topics selected for review in the paper like: photons, Time etc.
    Entries for Mathis and P.U.T. would be added to the general CNPS physics index along with citations to Mathis' work.
_The major goals here are: a. the study effort that would be done for the paper never has to be done again; and b. other scientists will easily find it doing an index search on  Mathis, P.U.T. or any of the key topics addressed in the review.
_The only comment I'd add about the 5-part plan is that it would be a guideline for any new research we do that generates raw data.

Fri 6/9 2:23PM
>Bruce
_You said: "Ground breaking papers are often total nonsense. That's what we want to rule out. BUT, if there are some good ideas in there, I would expect reviewers to rate them P."
_That makes sense. CNPS would want to know what gets rated P. Theorists would want to know what gets rated I in order to know better hot to improve their theories. So I was using theorists' perspective, while you were using CNPS' perspective. Right?
_You said: "some people ... who the society believes are sound thinkers, pick out some promising concepts and guide a number of members to review them in depth. The result of that review would be one of your papers ... [and] other outcomes"
_Should I look for such thinkers to serve as fellow reviewers? I guess you won't mind if I look for them. Right?
_Below, I've reduced the list of essential elements of P.U.T. to those that most interest me. Would you like to just briefly look them over and say if any of them seem possibly true? I ask, because I'm interested in what you may know that may disprove any of them, and because it may help me learn a good review process. Si?
_ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS of P.U.T. with DEFINITIONS
 . Photon: a particle of a fundamental mass and radius, or a multiple thereof
 . which is detected as visible light, or so-called electromagnetic radiation;
 . also, the building block of subatomic particles (all matter in the universe)
 . Spin: the rotation of a photon, or any subatomic particle [or any atom or ion]
 . Electricity: work done on a load by photon translational forces
 . Magnetism: work done on a load by coherent photon surface spins
 . Heat: infrared photons
 . Charge: photon pressure (equivalent to mass), ie emission of photons from subatomic particles (neutrons emit very little)
 . Atomic Charge Neutrality: the state of an atom or molecule that emits little photon radiation
 . Electron: smallest subatomic particle, too large to reach the speed of light;
 . in atoms it "orbits" the pole of a proton and neutralizes (partly blocks) charge
 . Proton: primary subatomic particle responsible for charge
 . Neutron: a nearly neutral subatomic particle;
 . free neutrons decay because of lesser emission which exposes them to ambient field photon collisions
 . Alpha: alpha particle having two each of protons, neutrons and electrons;
 . it forms the core of larger atoms, either single or up to five combined
 . Carousel: opposing pair/s of protons in one equatorial plane around the polar axis of [an atomic] nucleus
 . Math, Physics & Quantum Mechanics Errors: flawed calculations for the microcosm based on zero diameter of electrons and photons, zero mass of photons, flawed logic, etc

10
EU DEBATE / COMET ELECTRICAL EROSION
« on: June 08, 2017, 08:21:50 pm »
Comet mesa and crater erosion by electrical surface erosion.

See electrical erosion of Comet Temple I in the 47 to 50 minute segment of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wtt2EUToo

A mesa on Temple I shows electrical[?] erosion over a short period of time in 2005, shortening the mesa by 50 meters after sunspot and solar wind activity had increased significantly.

Here are images from the video.

11
CNPS Structured Discussion / BN 5-Part Plan
« on: June 02, 2017, 09:55:43 pm »
6/2 9:50 PM
_Hi Bruce. I wanted to start one or two threads in section 1 of the forums, but I don't see a way to do that? Don't members have that ability?
_I just now came across your critique of my 8-point scientific method. You apparently posted it on May 26. I previously came across the discussion that had been going on about the scientific method for some time, so I've been getting in late on these discussions.
_Your critique doesn't seem to say anything much different from what I had said are problems because many scientists and media don't really follow scientific method well. I haven't read your links to Carl Sagan's comments on scientific method, but I'm very unimpressed with Sagan myself. I believe he was one of the main supporters of mainstream corporate science lies. I don't know if you're aware of how much corporate greed has turned science into fairy tales.
_Your data on repeats of the MM experiment is very interesting. I'd enjoy hearing exactly what was measured to have the velocities you quoted.
_And your 5-part idea sounds good for improving science. 1. Store raw data for public access 2. along with critiques; 3. Summarize experiments historically and 4. develop better theories; 5. Self-organize teams to rectify false media claims to better inform the public. It may help for such teams to be aware of the problem of corporate greed and deep state dangers to science.
_Storing raw data & critiques sounds like fun. Do you have a place to store them? Can the Wiki have a section for raw data? I think most of the Wiki design will be a waste of effort, if it's to be based on the Wikipedia model.

---

Monday, June 5, 2017 1:45 PM
_Lloyd, Members can post new Threads, but not "forums". When I tried to give them that ability, they refused to even look through the outline to find existing forums that were appropriate to their new ideas. I have changed the explanation for the major category to instruct them about this.
_You should have received a direct email telling you I posted the May 26 reply. If you didn't you may not have had email notification turned on.
_Your point about me not criticizing your scientific method outline is correct. That approach is sound. The problems lie outside that method. Corporate greed is a major part of the problem, as you say. So, that's why I went into some depth on how Structured discussion is intended to fix this.
_About the MM experiment repeats, they all used the same geometry as MM, just adding better sensors, longer path lengths and changing variables that MM didn't think about. For example, Miller believed the aether was proved by MM, but it's slow speed was due to earth-capture. So he did tests a various altitudes, including high mountain sights. He showed a direct correlation of measured aether speed with altitude. He also was much more careful on temperature and pressure issues. All of the data I uncovered was on-line. I can't quickly find my reference list. But it should be something for us to put together.
_Monday, June 5, 2017 3:47 PM
_I think the raw data will eventually get stored in many places. For small amounts, it could essentially be an attachment to the paper. For huge studies, it may simply be permissions for access to the current repository. For medium data sets, CNPS has its own servers. Since CNPS is in control of the Wikis, we should be able to work that out. But again, I think it will be a referral to a separate document.
_About the "CNPS Critical Wikis", remember, while they "look" like a Wiki, and are "composed" using a Wiki document format, they are a totally different breed of cat because they do NOT allow public editing. CNPS controls the content.

---



12
CNPS Structured Discussion / Theory Rating
« on: May 31, 2017, 11:05:50 am »
Wednesday, May 31, 2017 7:25 AM
<Bruce
_OK. I understand your objective. But, for me, I can't do the rating without having a broader understanding of the theory the pieces come from. As I said, they appear to be just a totally disjointed list of physics concepts.
_For example, your first entry is: P Photon: a particle of a fundamental mass and radius, or multiple thereof. You rated this P. I'd rate it I. Why? Because the long history of the duality discussion - particle / wave - has not been resolved. For any statement that simply sides with a photon being "a particle of a fundamental mass and radius", but provides no sound explanation, it has to be labeled "improbable" because there is over 100 years of strong arguments that say it CAN'T be just a particle.
_This is why I don't find value in the a simple rating scale you are using. It's not the simplicity that's the issue. Here's another simple system I do think has value:
_Y = yes, I'm interested in discussing further;  N = no, I'm not.  At least this system would help locate people to carry an idea further. I think this Y/N version would actually be an outcome of your system. Let's say you picked one issue that scored P on your survey. That doesn't mean everyone who took the survey would work with you. Those who voted I just wouldn't participate, producing a de facto N.
_I think this is a typical case where you are "too close" to your subject. You know it so well. People like me, even with years of physics experience, are coming into it cold. We need a lot more background to help you. THAT is what I'm trying to coach people into doing with the structured method.
_So, point me to a paper on P.U.T. and let keep my test trial going.

---

.5/31) 11AM)
>Bruce.
_You say you want to "help locate people to carry an idea further". So in the theory rating thread at http://forums.naturalphil...rg/showthread.php?tid=151 I added this statement: YOUR INTEREST IN DISCUSSING P.U.T. (YES or NO):
_So here's how that thread starts out now.
-----------------------------------------
Below is the list of Essential Ideas of PUT.
Please rate each idea as I, M, or P:
I (improbable) = under 30% probability
M (maybe) = 30-70% probability
P (probable) = over 70% probability
(& give reasons for I ratings in parentheses)
_WHAT RATING YOU GIVE P.U.T.:
_YOUR INTEREST IN DISCUSSING P.U.T. (YES or NO):
---------------------------------------------------
_What do you think of the objective of building an encyclopedic list of good alternative theories, explaining each one in about a paragraph, as a list of essential ideas of each theory?
_Each member on the email string and each other member of CNPS probably has their own theories. Would it be a good experiment to have a CNPS forum or section where we can try to list the essential ideas of each member's main theory? Each theory listing could include a link to their discussions on the main forum. The rating method could be an option that readers could click on.
_You rated the first idea of PUT and you included your reason for rating it I, which was helpful. It shows that the wording of the photon idea may need to be improved or another idea may need to be added to the list of essential ideas. I rated one of the ideas as I, but that doesn't keep me from having interest in the theory. Would you mind rating some more of the PUT essential ideas?

---

6/1 - 11AM
>Bruce.
_I have some comments about the forums.
Here are the main forum sections.
1. CNPS Small Forums (Topics)
2. Relativity
3. Philosophy
4. Universe, Aether and Field Theory
5. Mass, Energy and Forces - Components of the Universe
6. Earth Sciences
7. Human Biology
8. Definitions
9. CNPS Work Groups
_Some members say they can't find things on the forums. Instead of having many forums in each section, why not let members start their own threads in any of those 9 sections and let moderators request moderator-controlled threads when members or mods ask for them? And maybe let moderators move threads to other sections in case members start them in the wrong sections.
_I think Human Biology should be changed to Biology; Evolution should be moved from under Philosophy to under Biology. Is astronomy/cosmology supposed to go under section 4? I think it might be good to have section 4 called Astronomy or Cosmology and section 5 called Physics & Chemistry.
_Have you consulted with any forum experts, regarding optimum layout as well as attracting new members?

13
EU DEBATE / May 30
« on: May 30, 2017, 11:21:06 pm »
LK QUESTIONS
<LK to RF>
Q1: Have you done or read any calculations on EDM that support those ideas in  detail?
Q2: Do you know of experiments that show that EDM can erode surfaces like that and  produce partly melted clays and quartz sand?
Q3: A close encounter between planets would surely raise very high tides, causing  megatsunamis, so why would not the cavitation effect produce the sand from granite  bedrock and the tsunamis account for the sediment deposition and erosion, leaving  behind some mesas?
Q4: Doesn't water erosion produce dendritic patterns?
Q5: The EU team accept much of Velikovsky's evidence on catastrophism, and  Velikovsky referred to violent winds that occurred, so wouldn't the winds account  for loess and volcanism account for deep sea ash?

------------------------------------------

<RF to LK>
INTERPLANETARY ELECTRIC DISCHARGE
_[See] ‘An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics’:  https://www.thunderbolts....topic.php?f=4&t=16534
_See: https://www.thunderbolts....p?f=4&t=16534#p116159
_(Johnson. Robert. 2014. Massive Solar Eruptions and their contribution to the  causes of Tectonic Uplift. NCGT Journal Vol.2 No.1.)  _http://www.ncgtjournal.com/assets/NCGT_Journal_Contents_March_2014.pdf
_demonstrates that an external source of energy arising from massive solar  eruptions is likely to have been available on rare occasions in past eras.
_electric discharges to the Earth’s surface many orders of magnitude larger than  present-day lightning strikes would result from the impact of an extreme Coronal  Mass Ejection.
_The energy delivered directly to the crustal strata could have been sufficient to  contribute to uplift via many of the existing thermal expansion and phase change  models.
>>>_Rapid ion diffusion in the electric fields associated with the discharges is also  likely to have occurred, thereby potentially offering a solution to ‘the granite  problem’.
_(Gold, 1962, discussion p. 170) considered what effect a more massive solar  eruption would have on the Earth
_the increased solar wind pressure would drive the inner edge of the Earth’s  [outer] magnetosphere down into the upper atmosphere
_storm-generated electric currents would then encounter great resistance
_the path of least resistance is to short down in a massive and continuous  ‘lightning strike’ or discharge through the atmosphere, run through the more  conducting surface of the Earth, and short back up to the magnetosphere in a second  discharge to close the circuit back to the magnetosphere (figs. 1 and 2)
_huge direct currents of “hundreds of millions of Amps” would run in the surface of  the Earth
_Robert Johnson proposes that just such electrical discharges acted to uplift  modern mountainous regions
_Such currents would flow if either Earth encountered another celestial body or  Earth’s electrical environment changed
_I see such discharge altering Earth’s surface gravity which may have contributed  to the vertical tectonics at that time
_(see ‘An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics’ for my views on vertical  tectonics).
_We can picture both electrical and physical processes generating sediment but wave  action certainly did not sculpt Mt Everest
_the dendritic patterns of mountain ranges must have an electrical origin
_Paul Anderson has done work in this respect. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=c7w1rGeqXBg
_“Paul Anderson uses fractal analysis to determine what process –fluvial or  electrical- shaped the various landforms on the Earth, the main focus being canyons  and riverbeds.
_This analysis is then compared to electrical discharge patterns recorded in  laboratory experiments.
_Water flow does not appear to form structures with as many branches, particularly  perpendicular branches, as do electrical events.
_the current from the source must have been higher than it is today in the present auroras.
_The auroral process would have extended well beyond the current northern and  southern locations,
_and once the atmosphere could not support the ionization it would break down in  the form of electric discharges.’
_mountain formation was not only due to electrical uplift but also due to  electrical erosion.
_In this image of the Tibetan Plateau the rim has been eroded to form snow-capped  mountain ranges.
_“This is the pattern we see the world over
_What strata escaped being metamorphosed were eroded, pulverised and scattered by  intense electrical winds
_(something similar but on a vastly reduced scale still occurs on Mars today

<>Are you referring to global dust storms from electrified dust devils?
<>Do you see dendritic patterns on Mars from that?

ASH & DUST
_In the same thread I write: “Ashes and Dust
_Large areas of the Earth’s strata and surface record what geologists perceive as  ‘massive volcanic eruptions’ quite often these prehistoric eruptions dwarf any  recorded eruption.
_For example, Dinosaur National Monument (Utah, USA) is part of the Morrison  Formation which covers some 700,000 square miles.
_Part of the formation is: ‘dominated by silica-rich volcanic ash representing  explosive volcanism on a colossal scale
_A staggering quantity of volcanic materials, estimated at more than 4,000 cubic  miles, occurs within the thin but widespread Brushy Basin Member in Wyoming, Utah,  Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona.
_No volcano is known within the boundary of the Morrison deposit, no local lava  flows are known within the Morrison boundary, and geologists place the nearest  explosive volcanic source vents in southern California or Nevada.
_How these coarse volcanic materials in such colossal quantities were distributed  on so wide a scale remains a mystery.’(15)
_“The Worzel Deep Sea Ash consists of colourless shards of volcanic glass with an  index of refraction of 1.500 and varying in size from 0.07 to 0.2 mm.
_There is no particle size sorting.
_Most of the shards are in the form of curved, fluted, or crumpled films of glass.
_A minority are nearly equidimensional fragments of silky pumice.
_No crystalline minerals have been found.
_In all important respects it is similar to material which has been classified as  volcanic ash in the deep-sea deposits of the world.
_On preliminary examination, the ash of the Worzel layer appears to be quite  similar to the ash layer which occurs in a suite of cores from the Gulf of Mexico.
_Rex and Goldberg have found quartz particles of continental origin in abundance in  Pacific sediments as much as 2,000 miles from the nearest continent
_The ash is entirely unlike material described as meteoritic dust.’
_“The researchers concluded: ‘Apparently we require either a single very large  volcanic explosion, or the simultaneous explosion of many volcanoes
_or a cometary collision similar to that suggested by Urey as explanation" for the  origin of tektites.’
_In other words a global cataclysm is required to account for the ash.
>>>_However, if we look at the chemical composition of the ash (17) we find it shares similar chemical properties with granite (18).
_“Loess covers about 10% of the Earth’s land surface
_according to Michael Oard it is generally considered to be wind-blown (Aeolian)  silt.
_It is composed mostly of quartz grains, with minor portions of clay and sand often  mixed with the silt.
_Loess is commonly intermixed vertically with ‘paleosols’, which are supposedly  fossil soils that have been preserved in the geologic record or buried deeply  enough that it is no longer subject to soil forming processes.
_Scientists previously believed the silt particles in loess were derived from ice  abrasion, but they now believe that loess has both a glacial and non-glacial  origin.
_In central China it is up to 300m thick.
_Millions of woolly mammoths and other Ice Age animals are mostly entombed in loess  in non-glaciated areas of Siberia, Alaska and the Yukon Territory of Canada.
_Wind blown material is common within the Ice Age portion of the Greenland ice  cores.
_“Whether it be ‘volcanic ash’, deep sea ash or loess, all this material may be the  by-product of the electrical erosion that occurred during the mountain forming  period.
_material eroded in the early stages may have been deposited whilst marine  incursions were still ongoing
_this material would have been incorporated into marine strata and interpreted as  ‘volcanic’.
_During the latter stages when marine transgressions had subsided electrical dust  storms would have scattered the material globally- eventually to settle on the  ocean floor or entrap ‘Ice Age’ mammals.
_“Furthermore, marine sponge spicules have been identified in loess,
_we have already seen that the fossilised remains of sea creatures have been found  atop Mount Everest
_it is likely that the remains of sponges originated from the uplifted uppermost  sedimentary strata pulverised and scattered by an electrical discharge

RADIOACTIVE CRATER
_Louis Hissink https://malagabay.wordpre...017/05/03/indian-impacts- hammerhead-geology-by-louis-hissink/
_Woolfe Creek Crater with its radioactive crater rim is an electrical discharge  producing radioactive elements in situ.

GRANITE
_Given the association of radioactive elements with granite
_and great masses of granite are found to have been emplaced among deformed and  metamorphosed sedimentary strata to form enormous granite bathyliths in the cores  of major mountain ranges
_Granite is never found outside mountain belts (Bucher, 1950, p. 37).”
_There's a link between electrical discharges and topographic uplift

------------------------------------------

MT ST HELENS EROSION
Dendritic erosion at Mt. St. Helens Fig. 3
http://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_sa_r04

SOIL EROSION
https://s-media-cache-ak0...7530c81dd959e6be06873.jpg

GRANITE
Wikipedia: Occurrence
Granitic rock is widely distributed throughout the continental crust. Much of it was intruded during the Precambrian age; it is the most abundant basement rock that underlies the relatively thin sedimentary veneer of the continents. Outcrops of granite tend to form tors and rounded massifs. Granites sometimes occur in circular depressions surrounded by a range of hills, formed by the metamorphic aureole or hornfels. Granite often occurs as relatively small, less than 100 km² stock masses (stocks) and in batholiths that are often associated with orogenic mountain ranges. Small dikes of granitic composition called aplites are often associated with the margins of granitic intrusions. In some locations, very coarse-grained pegmatite masses occur with granite.
Origin
Granite has a felsic composition and is more common in recent geologic time in contrast to Earth's ultramafic ancient igneous history. Felsic rocks are less dense than mafic and ultramafic rocks, and thus they tend to escape subduction, whereas basaltic or gabbroic rocks tend to sink into the mantle beneath the granitic rocks of the continental cratons. Therefore, granitic rocks form the basement of all land continents.

LOESS
http://www.physicalgeogra...images/loess_deposits.gif
Loess is a sedimentary deposit composed largely of silt-size grains that are loosely cemented by calcium carbonate.

Distribution and composition of loess sediments in the Ili Basin, Central Asia
http://www.sciencedirect....cle/pii/S1040618213009877
The bulk mineral components of the Ili loess are dominated by quartz and feldspar with minor amounts of calcite, chlorite, mica, dolomite and hornblende. More than 20 types of heavy minerals were observed with major components of amphibole, magnetite and epidote. The major elements of the Ili loess are characterized by high abundance of SiO2, Al2O3 and CaO and minor amounts of Fe2O3, MgO, Na2O and K2O.

WORZEL ASH
http://grahamhancock.com/.../read.php?1,244845,245282

The "Worzel Ash" (Los Chocoyos Volcanic Ash)
Author: Xebec ()
Date: June 26, 2008 03:47AM
legionromanes wrote:

"The debris Venus allegedly deposited in Earth's atmosphere causing 40 years of darkness after the Exodus left no trace in the world's ice caps or ocean bottoms, [See "Ice Cores", Kronos X:1, 1984, 97-102, or Appendix D at end of [abob.libs.uga.edu].] a test ignored by Rose [and an example of negative evidence with which Velikovskians do not have a good track record of dealing. N.B.: The "Worzel Ash" touted by Velikovsky and his epigoni is known to be volcanic (to the exclusion of any other source) from eruptions in Central America, limited in extent (i.e., not global), and far older than 3500 years; see "The Worzel Ash," Kronos X:1, 1984, 92-94 or section "The 'Worzel' Ash" in Mewhinney's "Minds in Ablation". (12-III-99) .]"

Note "Minds in Ablation Part Seven: Dust" is at: [ www.pibburns.com ]

The extent of the "Worzel Ash" of Worzel (1959) and as discussed by Ewing et al. (1959) and Anders and Limber (1959) is now known to have been vastly overestimated. Detailed research published by Bowels et al. (1973), Drexler et al. (1980), Ledbetter (1984, 1985), and Ledbetter and Sparks (1979), which included trace element analysis and dating by biostratigraphy, oxygen isotope stratigraphy, and radiometric methods not performed by Worzel (1959), show that what he mapped as the "Worzel Ash" actually consists of a number of different beds of volcanic ash that vary greatly in age. They found that the "Worzel Ash" was not a single global ash bed. From the trace and minor element analysis of 128 volcanic ash samples from 56 cores, Bowles et al. (1973) concluded that the unit, which Worzel (1959) mapped as the "Worzel Ash" consists of different ash beds of differing ages including three regionally widespread volcanic ash beds. Ledbetter and Sparks (1979) found what they called the "Worzel D ash" to be the distal counterpart of the rhyolitic Los Chocoyos ash-flow tuff of Guatemala and both were the result of a caldera ("supervolcano") eruption. Drexler et al. (1980) found that the "Worzel D" (Los Chocoyos) ash was created by a massive caldera eruption of the Atitlan caldera, which buried the much of the Guatemalan Highlands and Pacific coastal plain under a thick layer of ignimbrite and spread volcanic ash from Florida to Ecuador. Drexler et al. (1980) contains a map showing the distribution of the Los Chocoyos ("Worzel D" and Y8) ash bed. In this eruption, the Atitlan caldera erupted 270-280 cubic kilometers of volcanic material and created a huge volcanic caldera now filled by Lake Atitlan (Rose et al. 1987).

More coring and detailed geochemical analyses by Ledbetter (1985) of ash layers recovered from cores in the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific Ocean adjacent to Central America defined 11 distinct ash beds within the sediments underlying the Gulf of Mexico and Pacific Ocean surrounding Central America. He was able to delineate the extent of each of the ash layers. The two most widespread ash layers, the Los Chocoyos ("Worzel D") ash bed was estimated to be 84,000 years old and the Worzel L ash bed was estimated to be 230,000 years old. Ledbetter (1984) noted that the Y8 ash bed in Gulf of Mexico is the same as the Los Chocoyos (Worzel D) ash bed.

The distributions of the Los Chocoyos (Worzel D) and other regionally extensive volcanic ash beds (tephras) are shown in figure 2 (page 6) of Machida (2002). In this figure, The Wozel D ash is ash deposit no. 26.

References

Anders, E., and N. Limber, 1959, Origin of the Worzel Deep-Sea Ash. Nature. vol. 184, pp. 44-45.

Bowels, F.A., R.N. Jack, and I.S.E. Carmichael, 1973, Investigation of Deep-Sea Volcanic Ash Layers from
Equatorial Pacific Cores. Geological Society of America Bulletin, vol. 84, no. 7, pp. 2371-2388
DOI: 10.1130/0016-7606(1973)84<2371:IODVAL>2.0.CO;2

Drexler, J.W., W.I. Rose, Jr., R.S.J. Sparks, and M.T. Ledbetter, 1980. The Los Chocoyos Ash, Guatemala: a major stratigraphic marker in middle America andin three ocean basins. Quaternary Research, vol. 13, pp. 327-345.

Ewing, M., B.C. Heezen and D,B. Ericson, 1959, Significance of the Worzel Deep Sea Ash. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. vol. 45, No. 3, pp. 355-361.

Ledbetter, M.T., 1984. Late Pleistocene tephrochronology in the Gulf of Mexico region. In N. Healy-Williams, ed., pp. 119-148, Principles of Pleistocene Stratigraphy Applied to the Gulf of Mexico. IHRDC Press, Boston.

Ledbetter, M.T., 1985, Tephrochronology of marine tephra adjacent to Central America. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 96, no. 1, pp. 77-82.
DOI: 10.1130/0016-7606(1985)96<77:TOMTAT>2.0.CO;2

Ledbetter, M.T., and R.S.J. Sparks, 1979, Duration of large-magnitude explosive eruptions deduced from graded bedding in deep-sea ash layers Geology. vol. 7, no. 5, pp. 240-244
DOI: 10.1130/0091-7613(1979)7<240:DOLEED>2.0.CO;2

Machida, H. 2002, Quaternary Volcanoes and Widespread Tephras of the World. Global Environmental Research. vol. 6, no. 2, pp. 3-17. [ www.airies.or.jp ]

Rose, W.I., C.G. Newhall, T.J. Bornhorst, and S. Self, 1985, Quaternary silicic pyroclastic deposits of Atitlan Caldera, Guatemala. Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research. vol. 33, no. 1-3, pp. 57-80.

Worzel, J.L., 1959, Extensive deep sea sub-bottom reflections identified as white ash. National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. vol. 45, no. 3, pp.349-355.

Some URLS
Los Chocoyos ash [ volcano.und.edu ]
Atitlan, Guatemala [ volcano.und.edu ]
Lake Atitlan [ volcano.und.edu ]
Lago de Atitlán [ en.wikipedia.org ]
Essen in "Re: The Evidence of Mu" <[ www.grahamhancock.com ];
C. Leroy Ellenberger - [en.wikipedia.org]


Yours,
David

------------------------------------------


14
CNPS Structured Discussion / Re: CNPS General Discussion
« on: May 26, 2017, 07:28:59 pm »
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2017, 9:33 AM
_Lloyd, I'm only addressing your first two points in this response. I'll address rating in a followup email.
_Inviting members to the forum: Remember, the email string is a renegade email environment. NO RULES!  David and CNPS have no authority there. And "as a rule" they avoid it. So, to invite members, you essentially just go OFF TOPIC! You post an email, "reply all", and state your goal.  For example, "Anyone interested in this topic might be interested joining XYZ on the Forum." Also, after a few days, you will have dozens of emails with different topics. So, go out of order and reply all to the email with a topic that is closest to what you want to talk about.  Remember, please don't fall into the rat hole.
_Structure:I looked at your 4.1 Photonic Universe set up. Your suggestions now make
more sense to me, along with your explanations below. I had never considered using the forum to directly develop a paper. I always considered it a much larger, CNPS wide event. So, this is a very good idea for smaller efforts and can be added as an alternative element of the structured approach.
_Notice, we {two blindfolded researchers communicating by email}  have been examining the elephant from different sides. Let me expand on your observations and you will see the problem.
_The term "Summary":  Yes, by this I did mean "discussion summary", but not just from the standpoint of content summarization. More importantly, I viewed it as a running summary of coordination of the discussion. Think of this more as a "status report". The goal being, when a new person enters the discussion, or someone has left for awhile and returned, the "summary" tells them: 1. what this forum is all
about - its goals, challenges etc.; 2. what has gone on so far (discussion summary); 3. what issues have been resolved; 4. what issues are hot now;  and 5. what are the current focus activities. Again, in short, my "summary" is a project "status report". Item 2, which is what you started to do, does not need to be a line-by-line summary. Too much work.
_The term "coordination": This did not foresee paper writing. As such, it was simply coordination of the discussion in an attempt to resolve specific scientific questions. Any paper that came out of that, I thought, would be written by the facilitator as a personal activity, possibly involving others as co-authors.
_The term "external inputs": As part of the facilitation, I expected the facilitator to bring in material from sources outside the discussion as "drivers" to focus or promote the discussion. For example, one discussion on the email string degraded into an emotional fight about what Einstein believed and meant about the speed of light. I jumped in (which I only did infrequently) with a long quotation I cited "verbatim" from a transcribed presentation that Einstein made. I emphasize
"verbatim" because I had to stay in the discussion long enough to just get them to acknowledge that they could not make up their own story about what Einstein "said" when there was physical history that recorded what he said. In the end, they ignored me and went back to fighting. This is where the control of the structured part of the forum can shut this down, without actually moderating (by deletion) the actual discussion. So, the external inputs section would collect these intervention documents. Another group of "external inputs" would be discussions from other forums brought in by the facilitator which challenged the forum discussion.
_The term "documentation": I picked this word because the external "material" could be in any form: papers, speeches, drawings, graphics, articles, quotes from anywhere including other forums, books, policies, data tables etc. To me, "references" seemed to apply just to formal papers and books.
_Possible solution: Here is an approach I think addresses both of our approaches.
1. If the facilitator wants to produce a paper as the outcome of the forum discussion, this is stated in the forum launch. 2. An additional forum entry is made for this, e.g. 4.1.1.4  Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers -Working Paper . This can be formatted (by me during set up) as: open access; moderated; facilitator only.  The facilitator would decide which one. 3. The term "references" is just as good and easy to incorporate. What it means would be described in the controlled "Summary" document. 4. The "external input" function could be merged into the references but also added directly into the discussion. For example, if the facilitator (or anyone else)  brought in a post from another forum, they would post it and its citation as part of the discussion. The facilitator would then grab the citation for the "reference" section.

---

On May 26, 2017, at 12:55 AM)
Hi Bruce. Your last email was in my spam folder all day along with a bunch of emails from your email string.
_I thought you had said earlier that the purpose of the structured forum was to produce papers for the Wiki. If not, then what is the purpose? Just to have fun?
_You said: "Possible solution:
1. If the facilitator wants to produce a paper as the outcome of the forum discussion, this is stated in the forum launch."
2. An additional forum entry is made for this, e.g. 4.1.1.4  Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers -Working Paper . This can be formatted ( by me during set up ) as: open access; moderated; facilitator only.  The facilitator would decide which one."
__I think I'd prefer facilitator only for mine. Why wouldn't each topic in the forum have a Working Paper thread?
_"3. The term 'references' is just as good and easy to incorporate. What it means would be described in the controlled 'Summary' document."
__Okay, but instead of "Summary", I think I'd prefer "Ongoing Status Report" or "New & Returning Members, Read This!", if I understand you.
_"4. The 'external input' function could be merged into the references but also added directly into the discussion. For example, if the facilitator (or anyone else)  brought in a post from another forum, they would post it and its citation as part of the discussion. The facilitator would then grab the citation for the "reference" section.
__Right. As for the phrase "external inputs", it seemed vague to me, but I don't know if other people would have that impression.

---

Friday, May 26, 2017 10:39 AM
<Bruce
_There are multiple purposes for the structured forum. Here were my goals in general order of priority:
_Discuss single topics to break down disagreements among members around specific issues. CNPS members are strongly divided about Relativity. Most of this, however, is due to simple language flaws. If those could be resolved, then doors would open for serious work.
_Set up structure to improve all discussions. This would include things like: set up a bibliography for novice members to answer "resolved" issues without taking up forum effort; set up a bibliography for "expert" members as the basis for discussion. They now rely on memory, which they present full of errors.
_Breakdown topics into items that need separate resolution, with the goal of a larger result ( that might end up with one or more papers). For example, we are talking about developing a number of low cost experiments that will resolve the Relativity / Aether debate once and for all.
_The forum will be the primary mechanism to plan and coordinate member recruitment, CNPS marketing, promotion of papers, and expansion of conferences.
_The structured forum will become a new paradigm for coordinating scientific research. Creating more papers, the way it is done now, even by academia, is just one more landfill.
_" I think I'd prefer facilitator only for mine."   OK. I'll set up a "closed" forum for you: 4.1.1.4  Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers -Working Paper
_"Why wouldn't each topic in the forum have a Working Paper thread?"       See list above.
_"3. The term 'references' is just as good and easy to incorporate. What it means would be described in the controlled 'Summary' document." __Okay, but instead of "Summary", I think I'd prefer "Ongoing Status Report" or "New & Returning Members, Read This!", if I understand you."
_At this stage of experimentation, I'm open to different wording for the structured elements for different forums. So, pick out your titles and the order they should show up in.  HOWEVER, make sure you cover the needed structure issues:
1. A summary of what is going on in the discussion: status report a. what this forum is all about - its goals, challenges etc.; b. what has gone on so far (discussion summary); c. what issues have been resolved and what breakthrough conclusions have come up; d. what issues are hot now;  e. what are the current focus activities (which are different from d. due to renegade members); f. what you believe the stumbling blocks to resolution are.
2. Guidelines - coordination - of what you want the current discussion to focus on. If you have a real team effort going, list the assignments.
3. A brief bibliography of key material that sets the foundation for the discussion. This includes updates as the discussion goes forward.
4. A mechanism for bringing in outside viewpoints. This can be merged into the discussion for both you and members. But it also needs a semi-static document to cite it or directly include the text, and not rely only on the waterfall discussion.

---

5/26 7:11 PM
Hi Bruce. My reply is in two parts.
_Part 1.
Here is my understanding of your structured forum goals, which I label A-D, with your quotes in << - >>:
A. Attempt to resolve disagreements among members:
<<Discuss single topics to break down disagreements among members around specific issues. CNPS members are strongly divided about Relativity. Most of this, however, is due to simple language flaws. If those could be resolved, then doors would open for serious work.>>
B. Set up bibliographies to reduce newbies' questions:
<<Set up structure to improve all discussions. This would include things like: set up a bibliography for novice members to answer "resolved" issues without taking up forum effort; set up a bibliography for "expert" members as the basis for discussion. They now rely on memory, which they present full of errors.>>
C. Each section develop goals, like doing experiments, writing papers ... :
<<Breakdown topics into items that need separate resolution, with the goal of a larger result ( that might end up with one or more papers). For example, we are talking about developing a number of low cost experiments that will resolve the Relativity / Aether debate once and for all.>>
D. Improve & promote CNPS & scientific research:
<<The forum will be the primary mechanism to plan and coordinate member recruitment, CNPS marketing, promotion of papers, and expansion of conferences.
The structured forum will become a new paradigm for coordinating scientific research. Creating more papers, the way it is done now, even by academia, is just one more landfill.>>
_My impressions are:
A seems useful.
B seems difficult & of questionable value. We or some of us could try it and do a survey to say what's worthwhile in the effort.
C seems most valuable.
D sounds like what the last CNPS forum might be doing. Right?
_Part 2.
You said:
<<At this stage of experimentation, I'm open to different wording for the structured elements for different forums. So, pick out your titles and the order they should show up in.  HOWEVER, make sure you cover the needed structure issues:
1. A summary of what is going on in the discussion: status report
a. what this forum is all about - its goals, challenges etc.;
b. what has gone on so far (discussion summary);
c. what issues have been resolved and what breakthrough conclusions have come up;
d. what issues are hot now; 
e. what are the current focus activities (which are different from d. due to renegade members);
f. what you believe the stumbling blocks to resolution are.
2. Guidelines - coordination - of what you want the current discussion to focus on. If you have a real team effort going, list the assignments.
3. A brief bibliography of key material that sets the foundation for the discussion. This includes updates as the discussion goes forward.
4. A mechanism for bringing in outside viewpoints. This can be merged into the discussion for both you and members. But it also needs a semi-static document to cite it or directly include the text, and not rely only on the waterfall discussion.>>
_My impressions are:
1a seems useful and easy enough.
1b-e seem difficult & of lesser value. Readers can do most of those things themselves.
1f seems possibly useful, but it may be time-consuming & hard to remember to do.
2 seems okay.
3 seems only slightly useful. This sounds like "Important Files" or the like on some forums. Maybe the CNPS forum setup will make the bibliography more convenient than on most forums. But there should be a survey eventually to ask members how helpful the bibliography is and whether and how it should be improved (ditto for the whole forum).
4 seems slightly useful too.
_Let's see if I can come up with thread titles, now that you've explained your goals more completely. Okay, here are my choices for thread titles:
1st - for 1a & 1b-f & 2 (all in one thread): purpose, status report & assignments(?);
2nd - for a wiki working paper: wiki working paper;
3rd - for 3 & 4 (in one thread): bibliography & important outside viewpoints.
All of those would be stickied in that order and the discussion section would be unstickied. How's that?

---

Saturday, May 27, 2017 5:33 PM
<Bruce
_This is a good summary of my points. Your selection of titles covers all of my points plus your working paper. So, let's give it a shot.
_I notice that you already changed the titles in your section with the subheading Important threads.  That is how I would have done it, but with 4.1.1.4 numbering. Am I right that you created the subheadings: Important threads, and Normal Threads, using a "sticky" function?.  I tried logging in as a member to see if I could reply to these. I was able to. That's what I want to stop by locking the forums you called "Important", so regular members can't post in that area - Too many trolls.
_The only title I'm not sure if you want to lock or not is the Working Paper. I thought you said you wanted to lock it, but I can't find that discussion. Let me know about this.
_While I generally agree with your summary, there are still a few comments where I haven't convinced you of the merit. A way to do that might be for me to participate in your forum. When the issues come up, if I point them out, I think you will then see my concerns.
_A few, however, I can address right now:
_Setting up the bibliographies for newbies - yes, this is a difficult task. But I wouldn't expect any single forum, like yours, to complete the effort. Over time, however, many forums making a few contributions each would produce a large impact.
_For example ( and this relates to your MM paper ), there should not be any confusion about principles like "photons". The MM paper falls right into this quagmire. So as soon as any member raises a question about what a photon is, they should be referred to the Definition section of the Forum - in this case: 8. Definitions - Photon. And why this is a good example is, when a newbie or newly joining expert jumps to the Photon definition, what I expect is they will NOT get a simple answer.  Instead, they will be referred to a number of Critical Wiki articles that show the scientific community, at large, is still very divided about what photons are. After they read a few articles, they would return to your forum with a much more open and critical approach.
_Yes, for approach D,  the Work Group section will be involved. But largely to "coordinate" this goal. The primary work effort, however, will be for specific structured forums to make the scientific progress. And, it will be the ability of the structured approach to break down barriers to progress that will attract new members.

---

5/27 7:45 PM
Hi Bruce.
_I don't remember using thread titles "Important threads" and "Normal threads". I guess it's possible.
_Am I right that you've made me facilitator of just these forums?
3.3.3 The Scientific Method
4.1.1 Electric Universe or Aether
6.1 Catastrophism
6.2 Expansion Tectonics
6.3 Surge Tectonics
_I guess you'll be providing 3 locked threads for each of them titled:
- purpose, status report & assignments(?)
- wiki working paper
- bibliography & important outside viewpoints
plus an unlocked section titled discussion.
_After you do that, then I can change the titles of some of the threads that I started and relocate the contents appropriately.
_Which forum/s would you like to post in to help get me oriented?
_I invited email string members to a thread in 3.3.3.

15
CNPS Structured Discussion / Re: CNPS General Discussion
« on: May 23, 2017, 09:21:11 pm »
Tuesday, May 23, 2017 1:37 PM
_Lloyd, I really appreciate your support with this.
_I can't find any way to regulate the "sticky" function other than turn it on or off. But starting a new focus topic like P.U.T is where I should set you up with a structured format. It would be:
_4.1.1.4 Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers - summary and coordination  (Your input only - no need to stick this)
4.1.1.4 Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers - external inputs and documentation  (Your input only - no need to stick this)
4.1.1.4 Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers - Discussion
_The way you have it, others can't edit your posts, but they can reply to them and mess up your "important" label structure.
_I don't have control of the date labeling. When I open the page, it shows the creation date. BUT, it also has a note saying, "last modified xx/yy/zz".  If you don't think this is strong enough, you could add a note in bold at the top of the page:  "LAST UPDATE: xx/yy/zz" .  You could also include separate updates. Decide if this is needed - just another admin headache. Where it would make sense is on the coordination page. List the date each "coordination" guideline is posted and dated entries under a new subheading: COMPLETED.
_I wish my experience with participants was as positive as yours. On the email string it was hard to find even 5 good peer reviewers out of 50. Not only are many outright trolls, but most are also incapable of logical clarity. This is why I am so interested in your reviewing rules. Were you ever on the email string? If not, I can put you on for a few days and then get you off. All that is needed is to have a few troublesome "trigger" words show up and they will polarize into clans. The word "relativity" would cause a fire storm; so would "God", which shows up all the time. Sure we could edit those out, but that would impose both a heavy editing "hand" and a lot of effort. I also think your P, M, I rating would result in a wave of complaints from all those who don't agree. That's why, I was hoping your review approach would FORCE the group to "resolve" all the issues to categories like: most probable explanation (7 reviews); clarifications;  all dissenting views - a. xxxxxx; b. xxxxxx  etc.  At this point, I agree that a high count of multiple "probable" reviews would give a theory a high place in a WIKI. But I'd like to see some summary reference to the dissents.
_When I said, "ALL" the papers, I was anticipating that for some topic, like Photonic Universe, there would be many theories submitted. Each would be reviewed. But there would be a lot of similarities, with variations, among them. For example, in your "Working Paper", you included a "definition" of "PHOTON: a particle of a fundamental mass and radius… which is detected as visible light, or so-called electromagnetic radiation …."  I would contribute a short paper under this topic for Space Lattice Theory that would challenge this definition. In SLT, for example, the photon has a very different "definition". It is not a physical entity, but a dislocation (localized void) in a structured lattice. HOWEVER, in SLT, dislocations produce all the properties of mass. So, in your forum on P.U.T., your definition for photon would get a "probable" rating, and my SLT concept would show up as a dissenting view. In a forum for SLT, my photon definition would be "probable" and your definition a dissenting view. THAT SAID, in yet another place in the forum, i.e. the DEFINITIONS section, the "classical" photon definition might be "most probable" and both of our definitions dissents.
_I do agree with your idea of prioritizing based on some scale of "value". Until we see the response to this, I wouldn't jump to a simple "humanity and the ecosystem" criterion. Where I think this is heading is something more like multiple scales. For example, "Current discussions related to human sustainability are: 2.1.2.2 Synchronizing Clocks; 2.1.2.4 Twin Paradox; 3.4 Science at the supernatural boundary etc..   Current discussions on ecosystems: 6. Earth Sciences; 6.1 Catastrophism …etc. "  This is easy to do because the lists would be short.

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5/23 9 PM
Bruce,
_Re "sticky" function, no problem.
_Re date labeling, I could take care of that manually, if I were allowed to edit the thread titles in the forums where I moderate or facilitate.
_You said: "starting a new focus topic like P.U.T is where I should set you up with a structured format. It would be:
_4.1.1.4 Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers - summary and coordination  (Your input only - no need to stick this)
4.1.1.4 Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers - external inputs and documentation  (Your input only - no need to stick this)
4.1.1.4 Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers - Discussion
_The way you have it, others can't edit your posts, but they can reply to them and mess up your "important" label structure."
_That would be okay, if you let me edit the thread titles, as I said above. I'm okay with "Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers" for now, though I think there could be better titles. I'm less okay with "summary and coordination", and "external inputs and documentation". I'd rather call the former "working paper" and the latter "discussion summary and references", or something like that.
_No, I haven't been on the email string? David said today that he recieved my membership fee, so does that qualify me now? Sounds like fun having members who get triggered. I was in Dave Talbott's private group a few years ago and it was so frustrating having many of my messages refused, that I quit the group. So I'm glad you don't censor so much. I'm willing to join the string. Would I then be allowed to invite members to join forum discussions?
_Re Space Lattice Theory, do you have the list of essential elements of the theory? Do you have a forum for it yet? I can help with it, if you want to do that.
_Do you have time to rate the essential elements of P.U.T.? I could rate those of SLT as well as the theories I'm working on. That should give us ideas how to improve the process. By the way, I suspect that I'd give SLT a lot of M's. If I were to do such a review or rating, I might discover a key question or claim that might be most worth your focusing on, if you haven't already found it.

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Wednesday, May 24, 2017 4:38 PM
<Bruce: Re "thread titles", there is no separate control that I can set for that. You are allowed to edit your posts. So, the fact that it doesn't let you change the titles is a built in control. You could delete and repost, but that might not produce meaningful dates on the posts. I think I can change the titles. So, I could do that for you if it isn't done often.
_Since I haven't set up the 4.1.1.4 forums, suggest a better title. But if what you want to change is "summary and coordination" or "External Inputs and documentation", we should discuss why. What are the functions of a "working paper"? Why aren't "summary" in my wording and "discussion summary" in yours the same? Why isn't "documentation" in mine and "references" in yours the same?
_Your membership fee is not related to the email string.  The membership fee just makes your participation in the Forum official. David just made you a Forum member before you paid your fee because he recognized you.  You get on the email string when someone includes you in the cc: list. You get off when someone removes you. You don't have any say in it, except to complain. I'll put you in. But, please, just loiter for a few days. It's a rat hole because everything will go into the landfill. Yes, you can ask members to look at specific Forum topics. They all know about the Forum. So, no need to tell them. Many participate in both places.
_For Lattice Theory, take a look at http://www.a3society.org/LatticeTheory . This has multiple length versions of the theory. I haven't put it on the forum because I want to get at least one structured forum going. It would be a topic that is much more popular like a relativity / aether test match. I have one. Just haven't had time to launch it.
_What I would like to try is rating a few P.U.T. elements to show you the complications I think will arise. What paper can I try?

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5/24 7:33 PM
Hi Bruce. I read part of the email group discussion. Where was David saying I could invite members to the forum?
_I think you want to have 3 types of threads:
1. "summary and coordination"
2. "External Inputs and documentation" and
3. "discussion".
I think by "summary" you mean "discussion summary". And by "coordination" I think you mean "coordination on collectively writing a CNPS wiki paper". I figured that "working paper" makes that more obvious. And it doesn't seem to be helpful to have the discussion summary in with the working paper. It's also not obvious to me yet that a discussion summary is needed. If it IS needed for some reason, I could maybe just bold the main words in the discussions, as I started to do.
_I'm not clear on whether "external inputs" would be something other than "discussion". And "documentation" seems like presenting lots of paperwork, so I thought "references" would be clearer and less overwhelming.
_So the thread titles that seem best to me are:
"working paper"; "references"; "discussion"; and "theory rating".
The first two would be stickied; the last two would not. If "discussion summary" is needed for some reason, I'd prefer to put it with "references". I'll discuss "theory rating" below.
_You said: "What I would like to try is rating a few P.U.T. elements to show you the complications I think will arise. What paper can I try?"
_Well, I started 3 threads for "theory rating" here:
http://forums.naturalphil...rg/showthread.php?tid=151
http://forums.naturalphil...rg/showthread.php?tid=180
http://forums.naturalphil...rg/showthread.php?tid=181
_Each thread starts like this:
Rate this theory & give reasons for I-ratings (in parentheses).
RATING: [for reader to fill in]
_I (improbable) = under 30% probability
M (maybe) = 30-70% probability
P (probable) = over 70% probability
-----------------------------------
_Spoiler alert: I rated the 3 theories as follows, respectively:
21P, 13M, 1I
9P, 4I
17P, 1M
I included the reasons for my I-ratings.
_The I-ratings could show:
a) what the reader didn't read or understand, or
b) what the theorist needs to explain better, or
c) what needs to be dropped or replaced from the theory.
Readers giving their reasons for I-ratings should be helpful to theorists.
The M-ratings could show deficiencies too, but the I's should probably have the theorist's highest priority for addressing.
_The process of rating essential elements goes pretty fast. It should make it fairly easy for readers/reviewers to rate theories. It just requires someone to take the time to determine the essential elements of a theory and display them. Even that isn't very time-consuming in many cases. I've read a lot of theories and I can remember some or many of the essential elements of many of them. It seems like reading the essential elements of a theory helps the reader to understand it quite a bit. Maybe the ratings would help theorists improve the list of essential elements and the definitions.
_My impression is that a streamlined wiki could be developed pretty quick, if it mainly just showed the essential elements of any theory or claim, and if it had a way like this for readers to rate each essential element (and a way to rate the raters). I'm imagining a dynamic wiki that would be constantly improving, due to reader and theorist interactions.
_Will you let me know where you post your rating of PUT?

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