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XX 1st Draft / 2 = [1-2e] The Great Flood: Advanced Civilization
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:28:19 pm »
[1-2e] - WETTER CLIMATE - ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS - CONFERENCE - 1. ADVANCED CIVILIZATION - ATLANTIS - ADVANCED ANCIENT CIVILIZATION - POST-FLOOD RESETTLEMENT - HUMAN MIGRATION - SABOTAGE - ELONGATED SKULLS - ELONGATED SKULLS - ANCIENT ALIENS - BABEL

__WETTER CLIMATE
- GLOBAL CLIMATE WETTER FOR CENTURIES AFTER THE FLOOD
In the Middle East prior to 1000 BC large forest trees covered especially the higher elevations. Israel and Jordan supported a wild animal population not unlike that of North Africa. Similar evidence exists for North and South America, Asia and Australia (Jonathan Gray, The Corpse Came Back, chapter 20). And the transition from ice age to the present desert environment took place between 2250 to 2000 BC. (See Appendix 1.)

__ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS DURING GREAT FLOOD
- Evidence of Civilization Destroyed by Global Cataclysm
CITY 6,000 FEET UNDER THE SEA
-In 1965 a research vessel, "Anton Brunn", was investigating the Nazca Trench, off Peru. At a depth of 6,000 feet a photograph revealed huge upright pillars and walls, some of which seemed to have writing on them. In other nearby locations, apparently artificially shaped stones lay on their sides, as though they had toppled over.
- ARTIFACTS UNCOVERED
-1-In Western Australia in 1975, water drillers near Perth struck a concrete wall 30 feet below the surface.
-2-At Aix-en-Provence, France, from 1786 to 1788, coins, stumps of columns and other worked stones, were discovered 50 feet down, below eleven beds of compact limestone.
-3-At Blue Lick Springs, Kentucky, underground, below the remains of a prehistoric mastodon, was discovered a pavement of cut-stone tiles.
-4-In the autumn of 1868, in a strip of coal mine near Hammondsville, Ohio, at 100 feet below ground was found a large, smooth, slate wall covered with inscriptions similar to hieroglyphics, in lines about three inches apart. Crowds flocked to see, but the slate soon crumbled and the writing was destroyed.
-5-In November 1829, in a quarry twelve miles northwest of Philadelphia, at a depth of 69-70 feet below ground, a block of marble was found, which bore an indentation containing the raised alphabet characters 'I' and 'U'. Two years later the discovery appeared in an illustration in the American Journal of Science, vol.19, p.361.
-6-In Omaha, Nebraska, about 130 feet underground, coalminers found a carved slab of rock with diamond shapes. In the centre of each diamond was an engraving of a human face (Omaha Daily News, 1897).
-7-In 1928 in coal mine No. 5, near Heavener, Oklahoma, at a depth of two miles, miners encountered a wall composed of 12 inch cube concrete blocks polished so that all six sides acted as mirrors. About 100 to 150 yards further down the shaft, the same wall or one very similar was uncovered. That part of the mine was then filled up.
-8-Coal was NOT laid down 300 million years ago, but very recently, after civilized man.
-9-Huge stone cities, very ancient, with paved streets and tall pyramids choked with forest, have been sighted in the Amazon jungle. climate was more temperate and the rivers drained a fertile area. their alphabetic letters were Phoenician and Greek, 3,000 to 4,000 years ago. the whole Amazon basin was a shallow inland sea that existed AS RECENTLY AS 1200 BC. People wall-papered their houses with thin sheets of beaten gold. The people had fine features. They used gold coinage and operated fleets. Their buildings were of shining white stone. Their cities boasted magnificent plazas, paved streets, ornamented temples, round-topped pyramids, mansions and fountains. They erected lighthouses and used lenses and reflectors, the elements of the telescope. And the cities were walled against the sea of the Maranon (the Amazon Sea). According to native traditions, they used a light source akin to our electric bulb.
- South America was well known in antiquity. Before the jungle took over, it was resplendent with great cities. Many ancient traditions speak of an advanced culture which flourished thousands of years ago to the north and west of the Brazilian highlands. Books of wonderfully executed paintings and hieroglyphics have been found among naked Panos savages of the deep Peruvian forests near the gorge of the Ucayle, in the Amazon headwaters, in the eighteenth century. The Indians explained that the books, handed down, contained a history of events in the days of their ancestors. The pages of fine cotton, in external appearance resembling modern quarto leaves, were bound with a cover, glued together and fastened by agave threads. One of these ancient books was acquired by Fray Narcissus Gilbar and sent to Lima to be inspected by P. Cisneros, compiler of a periodical called El Mercurio Peruano.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:46 pm
- ANCIENT MAPS Show Land Before & After Cataclysm http://beforeus.com
- Maps show Antarctica firstly free of ice, secondly, the centre of Antarctica beginning to fill with ice (rivers and fjords being shown where today mile-thick glaciers flow) and thirdly, Antarctica after it had become mostly covered in ice. The U.S. Hydrographic Office declared one of these maps to be over 5,000 years old (Gray, Dead Men’s Secrets, pp.24-30). Similar ancient maps show Greenland before it was covered in ice; glacial actions in the Baltic countries; and northern Europe being covered by the Ice Age glaciation’s furthest advance. They were recording it as it occurred! The map illustrates this interesting fact: Before the final tearing apart of the continents, the Ice Age had begun.
[It apparently took very advanced civilization to produce the ancient maps below. The ones handed down were likely copies, but they're nonetheless usually very accurate.]
- From the various astronomical references in the Book of Job, different astronomers claim to be able to calculate the time in which Job lived, 2200-2100 BC (Miracle in Stone, pp.203-206). In his Ice Age book, Job recorded that “the waters [of the sea] harden like stone, and the surface of the deep [ocean] is frozen” (Job 38:29,30).
- Partholan’s coming to Ireland (15th century BC) says Lakes and rivers ‘break out’.
- The Zeno map, drawn in 1380 outlines the coasts of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Scotland, as well as the exact locations of islands. Greenland is shown free of glaciers. Unknown rivers and mountains have since been located in 1947-1949.
- The Camerio map of 1502 was formed on a spherical grid.
- The Zauche map of 1737 shows Antarctica free of ice. it is shown as two islands. Also shown are islands of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.
- Another map drawn in 1531 by Orontius Fineus indicates that the centre of Antarctica was beginning to fill with ice. It shows rivers and fjords.
- The Mercator chart of 1569 depicts only the Antarctic coast uncovered by glaciers.
- Another, copied in 1559, the Hadji Ahmed map shows Antarctica and the Pacific coast of the United States with the land bridge that once existed between Siberia and Alaska.
- The Andrea Benincasa map (1508) indicates that Northern Europe was being covered by the Ice Age glaciation’s furthest advance.
- The Iehudi Ibn ben Zara map of 1487 shows remnants of glaciers in Britain And islands in the Mediterranean and Aegean Seas, now under water.
- The Hamy King chart (1502) indicates northern Siberian rivers emptying into the Arctic Ocean now all under ice. It also shows glacial actions in the Baltic countries. What are today huge islands in Southeast Asia are shown on this map joined to land as they once were. The map even shows an ancient Suez Canal!
- Ptolemy’s map of the North depicts a glacial sheet advancing across south-central Greenland; and at the same time it shows glaciers retreating from northern Germany and southern Sweden.
- The Orontius Fineus map has Antarctica drawn too large, although mountains and other details are accurately presented.
- The Gloreanus map (1510) shows not only the exact line of the Atlantic coast of America from Canada to Tierra del Fuego, but also the whole length of the Pacific coast.
- The King Jaime World Chart (1502) shows the Sahara Desert as a fertile land with large lakes, rivers and cities.
- The Dulcert map of 1339, tracing from Ireland to the Don River of Eastern Europe, shows great precision.
- The Hydrographic Office of the Navy verified an ancient chart called the Piri Reis map, that goes back more than 5,000 years. It contains the following:
1. The correct locations of South America, Africa, the Caribbean, Spanish, African and South American coasts and even isolated areas, like Cape Verde Island, the Azores, the Canary Islands, as well as topographies of the interiors.
2. The coastline of Queen Maud Land in Antarctica with islands and bays now below the Antarctic ice sheet and a mountain range undiscovered until 1952.
3. The Isle of Pines, Andros Island, San Salvador, Jamaica, the mouth of the Amazon and the island of Morajo.
4. Greenland, shown as three islands [as it was before glaciation].
5. Every mountain range in northern Canada and Alaska.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:13 pm
__CONFERENCE
... Online Conference Transcript
... CC is Charles. GW is Webb. LK is Lloyd.
__- 1. ADVANCED CIVILIZATION
LK: Are the ancient maps good evidence of former advanced civilization?
- Do you think there was advanced civilization that produced the Bible? Or that produced the ancient maps and other traces?
GW: Yes, I think the early Chaldean civilization was advanced, and produced maps, but I don't endorse every archaeological claim I've encountered about this.

--------------------Postby Pi sees » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:39 am
__ATLANTIS
My understanding is that "Khem" refers to the black soil left behind by the flooding of the Nile.
- DATING OF ATLANTIS: Plato's proposed location for Atlantis (i.e. in the vicinity of the Azores) and time of its destruction (i.e. circa 9600 BCE) make complete sense in light of the geological evidence.
- Plato's proposed location makes sense owing to the fact that Azores Plateau is located at a 3-way intersection of the North American, Eurasian and African tectonic plates. During the Ice Age, the huge ice sheets covering northern Europe and Canada would have pressed down on the glacier-covered areas of the Eurasian and North American plates respectively; this pressure would have caused isostatic rebound in the non-covered parts of those plates, both across the plates and by channeling magma pressure down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge toward the aforementioned 3-way plate intersection. At the same time, the African plate was (and still is) pushing northwards into the Eurasian plate. The combined effects of these geological pressures would have been sufficient to raise a highly fertile but unstable landmass of a size comparable to modern-day Turkey (as per Plato's description), primarily composed of the Azores Plateau.
- The African plate was actually being forced to push into the Eurasian plate in a twisting north-eastward fashion, because the Azores Plateau was acting as an obstacle to the northwestern part of the plate; this "twisting" meant that the northwestern part of the African plate eventually started to pull away from the Eurasian plate, resulting in a loss of geological pressure critical to keeping a large Atlantic island above sea level.When the European and North American ice-sheets started to melt towards the end of the Pleistocene, the previously glaciated areas of those continents started to undergo isostatic rebound, resulting in a corresponding subsidence of the previously unglaciated parts of their respective plates as well as a loss in pressure being channeled down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge towards the Azores Plateau. In other words, Atlantis was hit with a geological triple-whammy (isostatic rebound, loss of channeled pressure down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, and the twisting movement of Africa) about 12,000 years ago, causing the large island to sink beneath the ocean surface in a geological instant. Over the next 10+ millenia the former island continued to subside more gradually (but still very quickly in geological terms) to its present level, hence Plato's reference - based on much older accounts - to a "shallow muddy shoal" rendering the Atlantic Ocean "impassable" in the general area where Atlantis had formerly stood.

__ADVANCED ANCIENT CIVILIZATION
many advanced ancient ruins: Baalbek, Sacsayhuaman

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:19 pm
__POST-FLOOD RESETTLEMENT
After the Cataclysm http://beforeus.com
-NOAH'S ARK.
The Great Pyramid’s latitude (30 degrees 00 minutes north) is precisely an “ark’s length and height” south of the remains of Noah’s Ark (39 degrees 26 minutes north) in Turkey (Persian Triangle Mystery).
-[ANCIENT] GLOBAL EXPLORATION AND SETTLEMENT
Surviving today are portions of ancient world maps drawn by surveying parties before, during and after the Ice Age (See Appendix 2). At least two - the Piri Reis and Reinal - were based on a circular projection with the focal point in Egypt.
(a) the Great Flood (2345 to 2344 BC),
(b) the founding of Egypt (2250 to 2188 BC) and
(c) the Great Pyramid (2144 BC)
-EGYPT. “INCH” AND “CUBIT” LINK. In Egypt, the royal cubit of 20.6 inches is well known. The British inch is derived from the pyramid inch. One pyramid inch equals 1.0011 British inches, one 500-millionth part of the earth’s polar axis. The royal Egyptian cubit and the inch have a relationship called the Golden Ratio.
-A wreck in Turkey, believed to be the Ark, has seven examples of this .618 ratio (Jonathan Gray, The Ark Conspiracy, Chapter 8). The pre-Flood cubit used in the Ark was taken to Egypt to become the royal Egyptian cubit. It was Mizraim, Noah’s grandson, who founded Egypt.
-The Great Pyramid accurately stands in the centre of the land surface of the earth as it NOW exists and marks both the longitude and latitude at which there is more land and less sea than at any other coordinates on earth.
-WHY WERE THE PYRAMID’S BUILDERS FORGOTTEN?
1. THE BUILDERS WERE NOT EGYPTIAN. 2. HISTORICAL ACCURACY WAS NOT A PRIORITY. 3. AMID ENVIRONMENTAL TRAUMA, MUCH CULTURE WAS FORGOTTEN. There was a sudden, dramatic drop in the human life span, as recorded by the ancient Chinese and the Hebrews (See The Corpse Came Back, chapter 18). Much earlier knowledge was quickly lost. The few Flood survivors, although bringing with them knowledge from the pre-Flood world, were too few in number to put most of it to practical use immediately. Population growth was rapid, so Two hundred years was all it needed [to re-establish civilization].
-BABYLON. Sumerian tradition preserved two lists of “kings” who reigned before the Flood. One contained eight names, as does the family tree of Cain, [and] the other ten names, as does the family tree of Genesis 5. After Alexander the Great had defeated Darius in 331 BC, he journeyed to Babylon and his scholars learned about the 1903 years of astronomical observations from the Chaldeans of Babylon. That placed the founding of Babylon at 2234 BC (Martin Anstey, The Romance of Bible Chronology. 1913, p.92). This is uncannily close to the biblical date for the Tower of Babel (c. 2244 BC).

=========================Postby Lloyd » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:52 am
__HUMAN MIGRATION
When I looked at that map, it looked to me like the origin could have been Asia Minor as much as Africa. There are arrows pointing in that direction, Asia Minor to Africa, as well as Asia Minor to everywhere else. Besides, Egypt is in Africa and it's at least as old as Sumer, I've read. Both places seem to be origins.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:41 pm
Indus Valley civilisation is as old as Egypt and Sumer.
Most of the peoples who invaded/entered the Middle East seem to have originated somewhere in Eurasia. Where they hit the Middle East depended on which way they moved around the Caspian and/or the Black Sea. The various mountain ranges extending west from Iran to the Aegean play a big part too - only so many places they can be crossed.
--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:59 am
The so-called 'dark age' is the result of the refusal by academics to ever acknowledge the seafaring civilisation of the Canaanites/Phoenicians.
The ancient world during 1700-722 BC was very well-connected through extensive sea trade. The shipping lanes connected the Baltic, British Isles, Africa and India with the Mediterranean. This vibrant trade between nations, languages and tribes was accomplished mainly by the Canaanites/Phoenicians--who also developed the alphabet and the first books. This is the world of the Old Testament. It was a highly interconnected world. For example, there are faience beads and also necklaces which are of the Mycenaean style in Wessex burial sites showing that trade was already developed in the north in 1450 BC. Tyre and Sidon were great seafaring cities and are some of the most mentioned people in the Old Testament.
The enormous blind-spot exhibited towards the Phoenicians is merely academic tradition.
That reminds me, I was delighted by Lloyd's mention of the possibility of Canaanite trade in the New World.
--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:35 pm
Claude Schaeffer...archaeologist whose excavation of the ancient city of Ugarit at Ras Shamra Syria, disclosed a succession of culture from about 1195 BC back to the 6th and 7th millenia BC.
...He found that Ugarit, a coastal city and port in ancient times, was quite cosmopolitan; in various periods it showed evidence of cultural influence from Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Hittite and Mediterannean civilizations.
The tablets included texts of literary works of considerable sophistication and originality that also helped to establish the Canaanite origin of the stories of the Patriarchs in the Bible.
--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:25 pm
Because of Schaeffer's work in more widely distributed areas, he was able to see common stratigraphy between the locations.
The significance of this development for accurate dating is astonishing to think about.
First, this may throw an enormous spanner in the academic dating traditions, who -- due to their own biases -- relate all dates to Classical Greek and Egyptian civilizations. That in itself is an enormous problem because if they have Greek and Egyptian dates wrong, the entire system falls.
Next, the disasters which befell these ancient cities left layers in the record which can be harmonized over wide areas. With today's electron microscope technologies, depositions can be identified with confidence, because as we know every volcano or high-temperature event leaves its own fingerprint, which is unlike that of any other volcano or high-temperature event.
And Claude Schaeffer was firm in his conviction: he had identified a precise year for the 1195 BC destruction of Ugarit.

__SABOTAGE
- “SCHOLARS” SABOTAGE ANCIENT DOCUMENTS: The Turin Papyrus was prepared during the late 18th Dynasty of the Pharaohs and included lists of all the kings of every dynasty of ancient Egypt through to the 18th Dynasty. This papyrus was found during a temple excavation in the 19th century. The King of Sardinia carefully preserved it and entrusted it to some “scholars” at Turin for translation. The “scholars” destroyed or hid most of it, apparently because it proved the “LONG dynastic” history of Egypt to be UNTRUE!
-The Palermo Stone contained a similar list. “unapproved researchers” can have access to only a few fragments. It is obvious that the stone was broken recently.

__ELONGATED SKULLS
Also - see the practice of elongating the skull. It's spread all over the world. Perhaps the ancient "gods" had those elongated skulls, and natives were trying to imitate:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2509436/The-1-650-year-old-French-aristocrats-skull-deliberately-deformed.html
The 1,650-year-old skull of aristocrat that was deliberately deformed to show her family's wealth is unearthed in France
Such an idea: "lets tie the child's head so it elongates!" does not come easily, and everywhere at once:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation
The practice of intentional cranial deformation is believed to predate written history; it was practised commonly in a number of cultures that are widely separated geographically and chronologically, and still occurs today in a few places, including Vanuatu.

--------------------Postby Roshi » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:52 am
__ELONGATED SKULLS
The artificial cranial deformation is spread all over the world, and it's 10 times more strange than the fact that there are similar flood stories all over the world. This not a simple thing to do, it can't just be listened to and passed on like a myth about the flood.
This practice existed in Europe, Africa, the Americas, Oceania. It's source cannot be just an idea everyone got at random - or the slow spreading of the custom from tribe to tribe - that is crazy. Tribes don't just copy customs like that (and this is a radical custom). It's origin must be ancient, in the antediluvian world, that was a global civilization, connected by ships (or flying ships) - and ruled by "gods" with long heads. As we see some pharaohs represented.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation
https://hiddenincatours.com/elongated-skulls-of-paracas-a-people-and-their-world/
Mainstream "explanations":
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141013-why-we-reshape-childrens-skulls
Skull modification might have been done with the aim of making males look more masculine
Head shaping seems to be a human cultural achievement rooting in the belief in an 'unfinished self
http://users.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/ritualcat.html
--------------------Postby seasmith » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:04 pm
the Hed¡jet:
A rock-solid clue to the origin of tall head, before coming south to pharaonize Egypt-
Narmerhead.jpg http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=3357&t=1
click to enlarge
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Narmer_Palette_smiting_side.jpg

--------------------Postby Roshi » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:00 am
__ANCIENT ALIENS
Conclusion: there existed and "antedeluvian" civilization. This civilization was responsible for the pyramids and all other strange ruins. It was lead by red haired "gods" - extraterestrials. People all over the world tried to imitate them by elongating the skulls of children. Look at the representation of ancient pharaohs and their long heads. This civilization was global. Check the stories about **** found in Egyptian mummies, and the red hair of Ramses:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II
Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair was originally red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[68] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the god Seth, the slayer of Osiris
Also see the stories about "sons of god" that came to earth and married human women, who then gave birth to "giants".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_%28mythology%29
Genesis 6:4-5 tells of the Nephilim before and after the Flood. According to Genesis 7:23, the Nephilim were destroyed in the Flood, but Nephilim are reported after the Flood

--------------------Postby GaryN » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:18 pm
__BABEL
The Great Mystery raised the sun to its present height and, with an earthquake, destroyed the tower that Montezuma was building into the heavens, in the process changing languages so that people could no longer understand animals or other tribes.
That's interesting, the story of Babel. Now how did that find its way to Arizona, and when?

182
XX 1st Draft / 2 = [1-2d] The Great Flood: Flood Myths
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:25:05 pm »
[1-2d] - NOAH MYTH - BIBLE GREAT FLOOD - FLOOD MYTHS ..GREAT FLOOD MYTHS ..GREAT FLOOD MYTHS - GREAT FLOOD PROTECTION - AREAS LACKING SEDIMENTARY ROCK - UNFLOODED LANDS - UNFLOODED BEDROCK - GC CHRONOLOGY - COMBINED CATACLYSMS

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:56 pm
__NOAH MYTH
- there's a good chance that Noah and the ark and the animals on it may have been an apparition in the sky and that the "fountains of the great deep" referred to the sky too, since most of the ancients seem to have referred to the sky as the "great deep", also as the ocean. ...

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:08 pm
__BIBLE GREAT FLOOD
Refer to Genesis 1:14 [Creation Day 4] for the pre-flood season reference, along with Gen. 2:4-6; and to God's promise in Genesis 8:22 [the post-flood "initiation" of the principle of uniformity] for seasons based on climate/weather.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:13 pm
__FLOOD MYTHS
The chart I posted above is evidence of a flood that occurred at the same time in most of the world, since most of those myths have important elements in common: major flooding and people and sometimes animals being saved in a large vessel.
- Some cultures may have gotten their flood myths from other cultures. And it seems possible that there were vessels in several parts of the world where people and animals were saved from drowning. It's also possible that the vessel containing people and animals was an apparition in the sky as sometimes discussed among Saturn theorists. Gordon is the one who suggested that nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata worldwide were deposited all at once during the Great Flood, and that suggests that where there is no sedimentary rock on continents, there was possibly no major flooding, which means many people and animals may have survived in those locations, which are shown in the map below in the areas of Precambrian surface rock.
Great Flood Deposits
http://www.geo.msu.edu/geogmich/images/precambrian_rocks_and_mobile_belts.JPG
Image
- I think there's a reasonable amount of consensus among Saturn theorists. They seem to agree that the polar planetary conjunction lasted quite a while, then the configuration destabilized and the planets and small objects in the sky appeared to behave chaotically. There were upheavals on Earth and a great flood about 4,500 years ago. Unusual electrical effects were seen. There was also rapid continental drift. An Ice Age followed. The planets soon found their orbital paths around the Sun; the Moon appeared in the sky and the new order prevailed. And civilization rebuilt in Egypt and Sumer firstly.
- Since nearly all the sedimentary strata were deposited by the flood and the fossils formed primarily at that time, the map above shows that there were several places around the world where there was little if any flooding and that's where people, animals and some plants survived best. Due to the fall of many meteors, the world's forests and grasslands caught fire, which led to coal deposits within the sedimentary areas. As Mike Fischer explains at http://newgeology.us , it makes more sense that continental drift didn't occur until a few hundred years after the Great Flood. And the movement of the northern continents toward the north pole is what froze the animals in the north. Velikovsky had thought that the Earth's axis had shifted, causing Alaska and Siberia to come close to the Arctic Circle, but rapid continental drift explains things much better than does a pole shift.

====================postby Lloyd » Tue May 31, 2016 9:59 am
__GREAT FLOOD MYTHS
- THOTH CLUES TO THE GREAT FLOOD Part 1
- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1998.08.txt
- A BRIEF ORIENTATION David Talbott
... WHY SHOULD WE CARE ABOUT MYTH?
... Myth is, I believe, a window to early human history, a more intense period of history than we've realized. The myths have their roots in a time of celestial catastrophe, and more often than not the appearance of confusion results from viewing myth as something other than what it is. In the course of cultural evolution and scientific advance, we left behind the fabled "long ago," whose images seemed wholly out of touch with our own world. Yet my personal conviction is that ancient myth, when seen as a symbolic record of earth-shaking events in the sky, will permanently change man's view of his celestial environment.
- BUT YOUR CONCLUSIONS ARE NOT THOSE OF OTHERS WHO DEVOTED LIFETIMES TO THE STUDY OF MYTH.
... Many common themes run through the folklore of diverse cultures. From ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia to the Americas, from India to China, Scandinavia, Africa, and the Pacific Islands, one finds surprisingly similar accounts: celestial temples and cities, a lost paradise or "Garden of Eden," a cosmic mountain, a flaming serpent or dragon in the sky -- and surprisingly similar stories of global calamity ranging from wars of the gods, to a great flood or a devastating rain of fire and gravel. If we'll look at these collective memories carefully, it will change our understanding of the past. Many of the myths concern planets, but the accounts make no sense to us in terms of the movement of these remote bodies today. Why did the planets, these little pinpricks of light, play such a powerful role in the mythical "age of the gods"? Along with others working in this field, I've come to interpret the myths and drawings and ritual practices from a new vantage point. Here is the conclusion in a nutshell: A few thousand years ago, the sky did not look anything like it appears today! Planets hung as gigantic, sometimes terrifying bodies above the ancient stargazers. In periods of stability this involved incredible beauty, but there were also periods of mind-altering catastrophe -- the most traumatic experiences in human history.
- WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE FOR THIS?
- The primary evidence comes from ancient pictures and chronicles, submitted to extensive cross-referencing. By comparing accounts from around the world, one can begin to reconstruct the way the sky looked in ancient times. Is it possible that the myths and pictographs recorded, in a language unique to the starworshippers, large-scale events we've forgotten? By keeping that possibility firmly in mind, the researcher will begin to identify crucial themes of myth -- themes found on every continent, but pointing to an alien sky. As one begins to see the past differently, recent space age discoveries will take on a new significance. Our probes of other planets, such as the Mariner explorations of Mars, the Voyager missions to Jupiter and Saturn, and more recently the Magellan mapping of Venus, the Galileo probe of Jupiter, and the Mars Surveyor have produced many stunning images of the planets and their moons, together with undeniable evidence of large-scale catastrophe within the planetary system. Taken as a whole, these stark profiles of our neighbors challenge traditional theories claiming slow and uneventful planetary evolution. Moreover, a new possibility arises from a reconsideration of the historical material: the possibility that at least some of the horrendous scars on our planetary neighbors resulted from events witnessed by man not all that long ago.
- WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE STATEMENT THAT THE PLANETS APPEARED AS "GIGANTIC BODIES IN THE SKY"?
- At the core of the argument is the idea that several planets were once joined in a spectacular gathering of planets, together with gases and dust, smaller moons and cosmic debris. For prehistoric man -- who witnessed all of this -- the effect was a massive celestial display in the northern sky. I've called this celestial assembly "the polar configuration" because in its stable phases it was centered on the north celestial pole. In the beginning, the primary form was the planet Saturn, stationary but immense in the sky. Numerous lines of evidence suggest that Saturn once towered over man and inspired the most dramatic leaps in human imagination the world has ever known. Our work puts a new emphasis on the unusual celestial events reflected in the myths. When you first dive into world mythology, all of your prior training will tell you to dismiss the myth-makers as fabricators or victims of hallucination. But there's another way to see the myths. Ancient man experienced extraordinary events, then strove to remember and to reenact them in every way possible. The result was not only a global mythology, but entirely new forms of human expression. And the whole range of expressions -- sacrifices to the gods, wars of conquest, monumental construction, pictographic representations, and endless celebrations of the lost age of the gods -- left us a massive reservoir of evidence. These highly novel expressions are, in fact, the distinguishing characteristics of the first civilizations.
- BUT WHY SHOULD WE BELIEVE THE SKY HAS CHANGED SO DRASTICALLY?
- The best I can ask for is a willingness to consider an argument. I could show you, for example, that certain celestial images preoccupied ancient man to the point of an obsession. A great cosmic wheel in the sky. The pyramid of the sun. The eye of heaven. Also the ship of heaven, a spiraling serpent, the raging goddess, and four luminous "winds" of the sky. The problem for conventional perspectives is that these images are far, far removed from anything we see in the heavens today. But that is only the beginning of the theoretical challenge. As soon as you realize that far-flung cultures, though employing different symbols, tell a unified story, all of the previous "explanations" of myth collapse. Of course the point will not be proven in a few sentences, and not in a few pages. But the more you learn on this subject, the more compelling the collective memory becomes.
- SO YOU ARE CHALLENGING THE IDEA THAT THINGS HAVE NOT REALLY CHANGED THAT MUCH WITHIN THE SOLAR SYSTEM.
- Yes, we are challenging an intellectual system as a whole. What is at stake here are the pillars of the modern world view. How could it be that the sky has completely changed in a few thousand years? Our textbooks do not talk about such a thing. When instructing us on the history of the solar system, the evolution of our planet, the birth of man, the origins of civilization, no one speaks of an unstable solar system, of interplanetary upheaval, or of wholesale changes in the celestial order. When the popular astronomer Carl Sagan presented his impressive exposition on the nature of things, called Cosmos, he didn't ask if we may have misunderstood our past. Rather, Sagan's expressed view -- the official view of science for many years -- fits comfortably within the textbooks on astronomy, geology, biology, anthropology, and ancient history. When we launched the U.S. Space program in the late 50s, then devoted billions of dollars to exploring neighboring planets, no one thought to ask if the planets might have followed different courses in earlier times, whether recent disturbances of the planetary system might have left their tell-tale marks on these remote bodies. So when our cameras and measuring devices reached the planets Mars and Venus, and the Voyager probes provided spectacular glimpses of Jupiter and Saturn -- well, we were left with a hundred enigmas and unanswered questions. And yes, there's a certain irony to this. The prevailing view of myth proclaims that, through science, man escaped the bonds of superstition and make believe. But now, in the twentieth century -- the age of science and reason -- it is myth and symbol that will provide the lost key to the past, the key to a new understanding of the solar system and of human origins. At the heart of this claim is a bedrock principle: the myth-making age arose from the human urge to REMEMBER [for future generations, because the sky had changed]; hence, the patterns of myth are the patterns of human memory. And if it can be rigorously demonstrated from cross-cultural comparison that numerous DIFFERENT words and symbols and mythical themes actually point to the SAME HIGHLY UNUSUAL EVENTS, then the patterns of memory will carry more weight than science has ever considered.
- HOW DO YOU DISTINGUISH THESE IDEAS ABOUT "PLANETARY" MYTH FROM THE IDEAS OF OTHER RESEARCHERS SUCH AS JOSEPH CAMPBELL, CARL JUNG AND MIRCEA ELIADE?
- Each of these impressive scholars came to discern certain unified layers of myth, layers our traditional cynicism about myth never anticipated. Perhaps the greatest contribution of these pioneers is their acknowledgment that the common view -- seeing myth as random absurdity -- will not suffice to explain the subject. I think the late Joseph Campbell has done the most to awaken popular interest in myth, and he is one of my own favorites too. Following a comparative approach, Campbell brought to light quite a number of global themes. He noted, for example, the myths of the central sun, the world mountain, the flowering of creation through sacrifice, the birth of the hero, the terrible goddess, and so on. Any one of these themes, when explored in its full context, could open the door to incredible discovery. But Campbell, like so many others, stopped short of asking the most important question of all: if the celestial references of the myths are absent today, is it possible that they were present in a former time?
- WHAT IS THE REAL MESSAGE OF MYTH, IN YOUR VIEW?
- The mythmakers are telling us we've forgotten the very thing they regarded as most vital -- in fact, the source of all meaning to the first starworshippers. We've forgotten the age of the gods. We've assumed that as long as man has journeyed on our planet the world looked and behaved almost exactly as it does today. And that is the fundamental error of modern perception. The answer to that error is to re-envision the past. With the help of the ancient chroniclers, its time to bring the forgotten dramas -- both the beauty, and the nightmare scenarios -- into the light of day.

====================postby Lloyd » Tue May 31, 2016 10:06 am
__GREAT FLOOD MYTHS
- THOTH CLUES TO THE GREAT FLOOD Part 3
- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1999.08.txt
SATURN CONFIGURATION DISCUSSION
... CARDONA: ... If the Saturnian system was NOT captured by the Sun, the advent of day and night would have commenced at the clearing of the Saturnian nebular cloud within which the Saturnian system was enshrouded. In any case, whether the Saturnian system was, or was not, captured by the Sun, the Saturnian nebular, or placental, cloud would still have shielded the Sun from view until after Saturn's flare-up which, among other things, blew the placental cloud out of existence.
... ROBERT PREVIOUSLY: At what point does massive flooding come into the scenario? Do you believe that great quantities of water fell from the sky and/or world pillar in conjunction with the break-up?
- CARDONA: >From the world pillar during the break-up, definitely ... [over not] even a century.
- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv01.txt
- THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY: Part III
- Excerpts from Dwardu Cardona's SIS Silver Jubilee Paper
... CARDONA: THE WHIRLING COLUMN
- Once again, I cannot here present the entire string of evidential sources which attest to the whirling motion of the cosmic pillar. Instead I will merely present the opinion of four authorities on the subject. DC Santillana and von Dechend are two of many who came to the conclusion that the [visible Earth's] axis did twist and turn -- although they seemed somewhat unsure of whether it did so slowly or rapidly -- even if to them the axis was anything but an actual physical entity. So, incidentally, did Elmer Suhr when he speaks of the 'whirling cosmic column' and 'the whirling column of the cosmos.' In fact, Suhr goes on to stress: 'It is especially important to think of the cosmic column not as a static post but as a constantly whirling crucible...' Talbott, of course, also recognized this fact when he wrote that 'the cosmic mountain in many creation epics is presented as a churning, serpentine column rising along the world axis...' t is more than obvious from descriptions of the Saturnian axis, as well as prehistoric Petroglyphs, that the polar column was a visible entity rather than a deduced abstraction. This was so much so that, in some cases, the axis was even pictured as a ladder reaching to the Saturnian sun. ... It is ... this bolus flow that would have given the planetary tornado, or Rankine vortex, its serpentine quality.
... THE WATERY VORTEX
- AMY: Cardona proposes, if the polar column were actually a colossal tornado, that the Saturn theory demands that this, too, should be part of the mytho-historical record. ... [T]he tornado would have sucked large amounts of waters from the Earth and ancient man should have been aware of this, if not from observing the column itself, then at least from observing what happened when the column was severed.
- CARDONA: [A]mong the Australian Aborigines, the great python is the most impressive representative of the polar column. It is therefore significant that this python is not only believed to tower up to the level of the clouds, but that he also 'brings about rain and flood.' The Efe pygmies of the Ituri forest tell of a deluge of water which gushed forth as a mighty river when their version of the Cosmic Tree, which was the polar column, was felled. Similarly, the Arawak Indians of the [Guianas] tell of a wondrous tree which Sigu cut down. From its stump, water gushed out in such quantity as to cause a deluge. This tale is also found among the traditions of the Cuna, who tell of their mischief-maker, the Tapir, chopping down the Saltwater Tree from which salt water gushed out to form the oceans of the world. Thus, Velikovsky was correct when he surmised that the water of the Deluge would have been salty, but not, as he believed, because the salt, or at least its chlorine content, originated from Saturn. The water was salty because it came from the same oceanic water the vortex had sucked up in the first place.
... THE FLOOD FROM THE NORTH
- AMY: Cardona moves on to the next demand of the Saturn Theory. If the Deluge was [partly] the result of the collapse of a colossal tornado situated in the north, then the mytho-historical record must also contain this information. And it does. Among others, three American Indian tribes, the Wintus, the Wichita, and the Pawnee, tell different legends of the flood, but in each case the deluge arrives from the north.
- CARDONA: But what of the hard sciences? Is the evidence there? Once again, I can only mention a few items here, but that an enormous flood had once swept down from the north to scour the land surface of North America has been suggested by J. Harlan Bretz. So, similarly, with C. Warren Hunt who speaks of evidence pointing to a flood from the north, excavating the land as it went before it emptied into Lake Bonneville. That Lake Bonneville itself also burst its bounds to cause a secondary flood has been documented by Robert Jarred and Harold Malde. What is of additional interest here is that the area once covered by this lake constitutes a vast salt deposit 100 square miles [= ten miles square] in extent. Similar signs of a vast scouring flood from the north have also been discovered in Siberia. ... [T]his flood was [not] due to the catastrophic melting of the northern ice cap at the end of the Ice Age [since, at that] time, the northern ice cap had not yet been formed.
... THE CHURNING OF THE OCEAN
... [T]he Indic myth from the Mahabharata and the Bhagavata Purana [says]: In an effort to produce ... divine nectar, both gods and demons used Mount Mandara as a churning stick. Winding the serpent Vasuki, [or] Ananta, around Mount Mandara, ... depicted not in the form of a mountain, but in that of a pillar ... the gods (at one end) and the demons (at the other) grasped hold of Vasuki by the head and tail and, pulling him back and forth, were able to rotate Mount Mandara fast enough to whisk the sea into an ocean of milk from which amrita was produced. ... [T]hus ... the mythic World Mountain and the Axis Mundi were one and the same. In fact, it has long been known to Indologists that Mount Mandara stood for the axis of the world. ... In Vasuki we recognize the bolus flow wrapped around the central vortex -- and here it is interesting to note that this entity was 'associated with the north,' thus locating the entire action in that locality. Finally, in the divinities' churning by pulling at the coiled Vasuki this way and that way, an echo is retained of the clockwise/counterclockwise rotation of the bolus flow as described by Jueneman.
... The elements contained in the myth of the churning of the ocean must not be thought of as uniquely Hindu in origin. In the Hindu myth, for instance, we see that Mandara was placed on the back of a tortoise. In Chinese mythology, it is Shang-ti who is depicted as standing on the celestial tortoise, while the serpent was said to have encircled the tortoise. Shang-ti's title was The Holy and Propitious Prince of the North Pole, who is usually represented as surrounded by a halo, both of which have special meaning to this study. It is also noteworthy that the symbolism of the tortoise and serpent goes at least as far back as the Han dynasty and was used as an emblem for the northern region of the world. More than that, as Lord of the Centre, Shang-ti was also revered as Huang-ti, who is perhaps better known as the Yellow Lord or Yellow Emperor. The Yellow Emperor has long been acknowledged to be an avatar of Saturn. And in the Japanese Kojiki we learn of the Heavenly Jeweled Spear which joined heaven to Earth and which acted as the churning stick responsible for the surfacing of the mythical ... island of Onogoro [in the sky].

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:13 am
__GREAT FLOOD PROTECTION
- It's certainly possible that there are or were physical ETs who planted us on the Earth and saved enough living things in times of cataclysms to repopulate the planet afterwards. But I'm inclined more to think that it's angels who do those things. There seems to be more evidence that angels or spirits exist than that ETs exist. The evidence of UFOs etc could actually be evidence of angels, as well as mankind's own recent inventions to some extent. Where the Bible speaks about God, it seems to mean angels of God. For example, the beings who visited Abraham before the destruction of Sodom and Gemorah were referred to as Lord, men and angels. The story of Moses and the burning bush where God spoke to him is repeated in the Book of Acts, I think, and there it's stated, I think by Stephen, that it was an angel who spoke to Moses. So I think the Bible only refers to the doings of angels, not really to those of "God". If I were an advanced being, I think I'd certainly prefer to have an immortal spirit body, than a mortal physical one, if I could manage it. I do believe in holistic, infinitely caring consciousness by the way.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:17 pm
__AREAS LACKING SEDIMENTARY ROCK
Gordon, do you think sedimentary rock strata locations indicate where the Great Flood occurred? And do you think where there are no sedimentary rock strata, the Flood did not occur? Here's a map of Precambrian strata locations in a light pinkish color, while sedimentary locations are light greenish:
http://higheredbcs.wiley.com/legacy/college/levin/0471697435/chap_tut/images/nw0167-nn.jpg
The site is: http://higheredbcs.wiley.com/legacy/college/levin/0471697435/chap_tut/chaps/chapter08-07.html
The main locations where Flood deposits are minimal or none are in much of eastern Canada & Greenland, Antarctica, eastern South America, southwestern Africa and other spotted locations in Eurasia & Australia.
If the Flood was not significant in those areas, then organisms could have probably survived there without an ark.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:40 pm
__UNFLOODED LANDS
I say that the frequently fossiliferous Cambrian and "above" sequences were deposited during the flood, in at least three major stages marked by the PreCambrian/Cambrian ["explosion"], PT [Permian/Triassic extinctions] and KT [Cretaceous/Tertiary extinctions] stratigraphic boundaries found globally. Add the Pliocene/Pleistocene groupings as a 4th major ending event [the Ice Epoch].
No, I would not say that there was no major flooding where there are no sedimentary rocks, nor that possibly living things survived on land not flooded. I do hold that some sea creatures survived the flood, as there is no indication in the biblical record of Noah being commissioned to save them; and in geology we find that fossilized sea creatures are found generally buried in strata beneath the fossils of land creatures -- this "first burial" trend would be expected since their habitats are "lower" than those of the land creatures. Standard model "shallow sea" explanations are to me indicators of creatures washed over onto and buried on the ancient continental shelves or lowland areas, which could be nearly anywhere on the ancient supercontinent before the formation of the boundary [brake] mountain ranges.
The Precambrian rock areas may have not been flooded or were washed clean as they were being uplifted toward the end of the flood into the exposed areas they now are found. There are no indicators from fossil evidence or otherwise that these "shield" regions were areas where anything survived the cataclysm; however the lack of fossils and the metamorphic/intrusive morphologies of Precambrian sequences in general do place them as being formed before the deluge, possibly primordial, or as vestiges of the original uplift of the continents above the primordial sea.
Other areas where there are no [exposed] sedimentary sequences are regions of "recent" [last stages of flood and post-flood] volcanism, so these would be an "afterthought" of the cataclysm, although the causation of these later events was definitely put in place by the flood apparati. Hence volcanic arcs are found adjacent/parallel to boundary ranges and trenches, etc. and/or other stressed areas of the continents.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:39 pm
__UNFLOODED BEDROCK
Since the Great Flood likely deposited nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata, why did it not deposit anything in the numerous shield regions? Since Noah's ark is likely to have referred to the Saturn Configuration, the actual survival of humans and animals would be likely due to one or two of two possibilities:
1. the Flood did not cover the entire surface of the Earth (some or all of the shield regions);
2. humans in many locations independently took to boats and ships for the duration of the Flood and animals lived on some of the ships and/or on floating mats of logs and debris.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:03 am
The shield regions are Pre-Cambrian exposures that do show some large-scale erosive/depositional action, eg. drumlins on the Canadian shield in Ontario; just because there are no major stratigraphic sequences doesn't mean they were untouched by flood tides or currents.

--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:16 am
__GC CHRONOLOGY
... My views? Multiple catastrophes with the last major one approx 12,000 years ago. The last of the lesser approx 1200BCE. I'm more interested in the human side of things rather than the Earth/science side.
- ... If there was a 'global' flood then it would have been 12000 ya. It can't have been either the MBA or LBA collapses as there were still several peoples, eg, Egyptians, Indians etc who didn't completely collapse. ...
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:37 am
... (As I see it) Venus and Mars were definitely involved in the LBA collapse as were Jupiter and the Sun. Homer makes this clear. Whether Venus was involved in any of the previous incidents is hard to say partly because it is difficult to know in which time period a story takes place.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:44 pm
... Nanodiamond-Rich Layer across Three Continents Consistent with Major Cosmic Impact at 12,800 Cal BP http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/677046

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:12 am
__COMBINED CATACLYSMS
As for tsunami sediments, this objection against tsunami action is not well thought out; consider this view:
A tsunami is simply a water delivery system. Whatever materials are there to be delivered, and whatever organisms or objects are there to be buried, these are what will appear in the resulting deposits. Remember that the deluge was not just a passive submergence of land, but rather powerful currents flowing over the land and eventually laying their deposits over vast sections of the low topography. Today's tsunamis operate in low coastal areas, washing in and back out again not able to pass higher ground. A different nature of deposit will be left in this scenario.

183
XX 1st Draft / 1 = [1-2c] The Great Flood: Rock Strata Formation
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:21:19 pm »
[1-2c] ..THICK ATMOSPHERE ..ROCK STRATA FORMATION - SEDIMENTARY ROCK ORIGIN - ROCK FORMATION BY TSUNAMIS - GRAND CANYON SAND DUNES - NO OROGENY WITH GREAT FLOOD - SEDIMENTARY STRATA - GREAT FLOOD HUMAN FOSSILS ..FLOOD RUNOFF

__THICK ATMOSPHERE
- Earth's atmosphere was likely thicker before the Great Flood cataclysm, so that the stars were not visible. Only the nearby planets and the Sun were visible. Earth had no visible Moon initially.

====================postby Lloyd » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:43 pm
__ROCK STRATA FORMATION
- 1. How did sedimentary rock strata form? ... The conventional theory seems to be full of absurdities. The Great Flood theory seems to be most logical to me, combined with the Shock Dynamics theory.
- The conventional theory is that strata and fossils take thousands to millions of years to form. But delicate fossils and large ones could not form in conventional flood or sedimentation events. I don't think it's even proven that conventional sedimentation forms solid strata. There has to be a lot of lime or other cementing agent available to form rock strata. I don't know if rock can form under water until the water is drained away. Most rock strata cover hundreds or thousands of square miles. There would have to be a lot of very huge lakes that filled with sediment. The sediment would have had to move over the entire lake bottom with nearly equal thickness, whereas normally sediment only accumulates near the mouths of rivers or creeks. Erosion would have to bring in just sand with some lime for thousands of years, then bring in just lime for thousands of years, and then just mud for many more thousands of years, because each rock type is usually separate in strata several inches to feet thick. All of the mountains would be eroded down in a few million years, so where would the older strata come from? Would something keep building up mountains to get eroded back down? Is anything besides a Shock Dynamics event capable of building up mountains?
- Creation scientists have shown that a global flood would be capable of cavitating the edges of a supercontinent to form continent-wide strata of sand, lime and mud sediments via tsunamis, caused by a large body temporarily orbiting the Earth on a highly elliptical orbit, which would also fossilize large and delicate organisms quickly.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:08 pm
__SUMMARY
... The Asteroid Bombardment caused the breakup of the Supercontinent and the rapid movement of the continents apart to near their present positions. The movement of continents largely caused the Great Flood tsunamis. The Great Flood caused Extinctions and Fossil formation. The slowing of Continental Drift by friction caused Mountain Uplift and Vulcanism. Receding Flood waters caused massive Erosion and the heated oceans caused evaporation and snowfall at higher latitudes, which was Glaciation in the one and only Ice Age.
__SEDIMENTARY ROCK ORIGIN
- [Sedimentary Rock Origin] Great Flood Videos
I was having a question lately about where all the sand, mud and lime would have come from if the sedimentary rock layers on continents were all formed during the Great Flood. After hearing the following video explain it, it seems it should have been obvious: they came largely from the seafloors. I wasn't thinking of the possibility that the oceans could have been stirred up enough to move much of the sediments from the seafloors onto the land.
Here are my Notes on the Flood Video called The Worldwide Flood - Geologic Evidences: youtube.com/watch?v=jwGgSNDPhO0
3'37": Evidence: If there was a Great Flood, the ocean waters could have flooded the continents, bringing along sand, mud and ocean creatures.
5'20": Tapeats Sandstone, Redwall Limestone and Coconino Sandstone belong to 5 megasequences of strata that cover much of North America.
5'42": Tapeats covers about 2/3 of U.S. and part of western Canada. It's also found in Israel.
6'24": Redwall having same features and fossils is found in AZ, TN, PA, England, Himalayas near Nepal,
7'00": Cretacious chalk, over 1,000 ft thick in places, is found in Ireland, S. England, Europe, Egypt, Turkey, Western Australia and in the U.S. from NE to TX.
8'40": Coconino, 300 ft thick, has crossbedding diagonal to the horizontal strata formed from underwater sand dune waves with the tops washed off.
10'53": Coconino covers from AZ to KS to TX. The sand waves started at 60 ft high each in water moving 3-5 mph. Coconino was deposited in a few days. The entire Grand Canyon strata were deposited in a few months.
12'54": Ayers Rock in central Australia is sandstone with nearly vertical strata with grains of different sizes, angular and some delicate, meaning they were deposited rapidly (from 60 miles away).
15'57": Ayers sandstone is over 18,000 ft thick. It was deposited within hours by turbidity currents moving up to 70 mph.
20'00": Coconino is over Hermit shale. Shale is hardened mud. Coconino sand came from Canada
22'00": Navajo sandstone in s. Utah lies over Coconino. Navajo sand contains zircons and quartz eroded from mountains of PA and NY.
23'00": Sand waves are direction indicators, indicating that Flood waters flowed during the Paleozoic over the Americas from n.e. to s.w. The same direction of flow occurred on the other continents too.
Part 2: youtube.com/watch?v=pMSSwoJFq-8
3'58": The main strata of the Grand Canyon contain marine fossils. Redwall limestone is in the middle, containing many sea animals. It's 7 ft thick and over 180 miles wide.
8'20": In France there are similar sea animals buried with amphibians, spiders, scorpions, millipedes, insects and reptiles. There's similar mixture in CO along with birds etc. Similar in WY.
11'00": In Tasmania an 80 ft thick stratum contains broken shells, a toothed whale and a possum.
17'12": 7 trillion tons of vegetation are buried in the world's coal beds. Same coal beds in the U.S. extend also from England to Russia.
... Delicate creatures are preserved. Some fish are preserved right after eating another fish, or giving birth, as evidence of rapid burial.
Video: The Mystery of Coal: youtube.com/watch?v=GlNudoEPSsM
This says coal consists largely of pieces of tree bark, wood, leaves etc. Peat bogs don't contain that, so coal doesn't come from there, despite the popular theory. But in Spirit Lake after the Mt. St. Helens eruption there was found layers of tree bark on the bottom, while the tree logs were floating on top.
Video: Extraordinary Evidence that Dinosaurs Lived with Man: youtube.com/watch?v=dWe3cteDuBc
It says 95% of fossils are from marine invertibrates. 4.5% are from plants and algae. Vertibrates make up .0125%. This isn't widely mentioned, because it gives the impression of a Flood Deposit.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:59 pm
__ROCK FORMATION BY TSUNAMIS
Electrical Formation
Hi, Brigit. Have you read Charles' papers at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Pages/6031.html? He has the best, most detailed explanations of the electrical formation and features of planets, stars and galaxies that I know of. Do you know of any better explanations than his for any cosmic or geological phenomenon?
Sandstone Formation
Charles' papers at the link above explain the electrical forces involved in Tides, Earthquakes, Vulcanism, and Crater Formation, which helped shape the Earth's surface. But the sedimentary rock strata were most likely formed by the Flood, not by "electric" forces primarily. Conventional geology says much of the sandstone was formed from desert sand dunes, but detailed studies show that they were formed under water, like limestone and shale. The paper, Startling evidence for Noah’s Flood: Footprints and sand ‘dunes’ in a Grand Canyon sandstone! at http://creation.com/startling-evidence-for-noahs-flood shows in detail why it is rather certain that sandstone was formed under water. Read especially the sections called "Those footprints" and "Desert ‘dunes’?" They explain that footprints in dunes do not show toe prints or distinct features, but only depressions. And the angles of dunes are different from sand waves underwater. That's partly how they could determine the sandstone formed under water.

__GRAND CANYON SAND DUNES
Webpage: Startling evidence for Noah’s Flood: Footprints and sand ‘dunes’ in a Grand Canyon sandstone! http://creation.com/startling-evidence-for-noahs-flood

=========================Postby Lloyd » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:45 pm
__NO OROGENY WITH GREAT FLOOD
Gordon, are you open to the possibility, as Mike Fischer concludes, that mountain uplift and the Ice Age did not occur till a few hundred years after the Great Flood? The deaths of Arctic animals by sudden freezing, due to continental drift moving two continents near to the north pole, and causing mountain uplift at the same time, seems to require that the Flood, which deposited nearly all of the fossil-bearing strata, occurred enough time earlier for the animals to have repopulated the Arctic region while it was still warm. I know you say Noah was said to have witnessed mountain uplift, but could that have been minor hills, or conflation of stories?

__SEDIMENTARY STRATA
Gordon & Brigit, The following seems to show that the 12 km deep Kola borehole project found mostly igneous rock nearly all the way down. There are some thin layers of sedimentary rock down to 6 km and a very thin layer at 7 km. There may be some melted metamorphic rock that was formerly sedimentary down to 7 km. Then it's just metamorphic rock that was formerly igneous, i.e. granite below 7 km (or below 4.4 miles). Gordon, do you have comments on this?
Data on the Kola Superdeep Borehole
http://www.zmescience.com/other/great-pics/geographical-facts-youre-not-going-to-believe-22022010/
Graph: http://cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/geolsection.gif
Proterozoic
0-1k) Augite Diabases with Pyroxene & Porphyrites
----- ([Igneous] Diabase = subvolcanic rock equivalent to volcanic basalt or plutonic gabbro)
0>1k, 2>4k) Basic Tuffs & Tuffites
----- ([Igneous] predominantly pyroclasts = volcanic ash)
0>2k) Phyllites, Silkstones with Tuff layers
----- ([Metamorphic/Sedimentary] from shale, silt etc)
0>3k) Gabbro-Diabases
----- ([Igneous] See Diabase above)
0>3k) Laminated Sandstones
----- ([Sedimentary] from sand)
0>3-5k) Achnolitic Diabases
----- ([Igneous] See Diabase above)
0>5+6k) Dolomites, polynistic Sandstones
----- ([Sedimentary] from lime & sand)
4>5k) Sericitic Schists
----- ([Metamorphic] possibly from melted/hardened sand or shale)
3>5-6k) Metadiabases
----- ([Metamorphic] diabase from [Igneous]: see Diabase above)
5>6-7k) Diabase Porphyrites & Schists
----- ([Igneous] See Diabase above; & [Metamorphic] see Schists above)
6>7k) Conglomerates
----- ([Sedimentary] from cemented rounded rocks, larger than sand grains)
6>7-12k) Muscovite-biotite-plagioclase gniesses with high alumina content minerals
-AND Epidote-biotite-plagioclase gniesses with amphibolites, amphibolite schists & ultramafites
----- ([Metamorphic] from Igneous granite or Sedimentary rock)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:51 am
The bore hole sampling confirms my assertion that the strata below Cambrian are primordial, ie. original crust modified when the first continent raised up above the global sea in Day 2, an event which would have been accompanied by erosion and initial depositional sequences, along with igneous upheaval and intrusive/granitic formation, and "country" rock metamorphism due to pressure and heat. Since life first appeared on the surface of this continent, it is expected that there would be limited fossils found in the "surface" layers of the "Pre-Cambrian".

__GREAT FLOOD HUMAN FOSSILS
I do not believe there is any physical evidence for human survival prior to the current era, but archaeology documents migrational patterns [eg. "Clovis" group] from the middle eastern sector to all other parts of the world.
Remember, fossil humans are a testament of death, not life.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:00 pm
Perhaps I should have said "genographics" instead of archaeology... I think the two disciplines are mutually supportive, however. Have you read this:
The Genographics Project
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/
Also, who said humans all died by drowning, or that they died simultaneously?
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:56 pm
Come on now Webolife, you are clutching at straws here. That part of E Africa is about as far from Sumer as I am in the UK. You agree with their migration map while dismissing their timeframe. The history (and archaeology) of the Middle East is a story of peoples entering the region not leaving it (unless they get kicked out).
I thought that this 'out of Africa' theory had died long ago. It is based on the premise that the oldest remains found to date are in fact the remains of the oldest 'humans'. It aint necessarily so - especially as they have not searched anywhere near the majority of the planet's land area (and then there is the lands that have become submerged and the remains which didn't get fossilised or got fossilised but didn't survive to the present).
DNA is interpreted through the lens of Darwin's theory which I believe you do not subscribe to. I have no time for Darwin nor do I have any for the DNA circus. They have been doing 'science by press-release' for decades now, hardly a week goes by without some headline grabbing fantasy.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:25 pm
Perhaps it was careless of me to reference that National Geographic site. My interest is primarily their unification of the migrating people groups to a relatively small number of "clans", and the general shape of their migration pattern.
I actually agree with you about the East Africa vs. Sumer dichotomy; I see Sumer as the central distribution region. I also agree with you that the rough and presumptive radiocarbon and genetic drift timeframes are off. I have a "What if..." attitude toward the use of the biblical record as a framework for earth history, and have built my alternative modeling on that premise. I see value in other cultural mythologies; but that is your realm of expertise, not mine, so for now I am content to read your intelligent synopses and critiques, and see what new info I can glean from that.
My finding is that there are relatively few [perhaps dozens of] good examples of fossilized pre-Flood humans [or from another approach, few of them got fossilized], and how they died would be largely a historical tradition, rather than a certainty based on geologic evidence beyond that their fossils are generally found in sedimentary deposits. You have undoubtedly found from my previous posts that I view the flood as a complex of highly hazardous happenings, not the least of which may have been death by drowning.

____________________Postby webolife » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:51 pm
__FLOOD RUNOFF
- Drift is more the result of a drainage process than of a deluvial one. By which I mean [and claim] that the underlying sedimentary formations were eroded by waters draining off in the last stages of the flood event(s).
The materials largely derive from the underlying formations, unlike the case of erratics which are carried by [probably] continental glaciation from a more distant formation, eg. granite from the Canadian Cascades landed in the Willamette Valley in Oregon. So in the case of drift found on facing sides of separated continents, I suggest that the various agents of the flood [not only the tsunami action which you have taken to focusing on] laid the underlying sediments in a similar fashion on the lowlands of the [two] spreading continental masses, then the later drainage action left the drift as a superficial feature, after the majority of the spreading was done.
- I have little reason to doubt that major continental glaciation happened across the young continents in the later stage(s) of the flood and afterwards, and that other drainage related phenomena also occurred at this time, ie. at the end of and after the flooding. Glacial advance seems a good mechanism for the creation of drumlins, striations and such, while glacial retreat seems a suitable [and observable] mechanism for the deposit of kames and eskers and other types of mounds, as well as the very common and relatively superficial outwash deposits [till]. Drumlins are not dunes. Windblown deposits are a result of the global wind development that happened after [as a result of] the flood dynamics, while the potholes and coulees of the Pacific Northwest [Eastern Washington] happened during the later retreat of the glaciation, with the breakage of an ice dam at glacial Lake Missoula. I place the retreat of the glaciation largely in the few centuries after the flood, and after the continental drift surge.
**LK NOTE: See Carlson re ice dam theory is wrong.

184
XX 1st Draft / 3 = [1-2b] The Great Flood: Asteroid Bombardment
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:18:20 pm »
[1-2b] - 5 MONTH BOMBARDMENT - 5 MONTH BOMBARDMENT - ASTEROID BOMBARDMENT - 7. ASTEROID BOMBARDMENT

__5 MONTH BOMBARDMENT
- Can you explain though how Earth could get hit by asteroids for 5 months? Did the Earth move through the asteroid belt? ...

__5 MONTH BOMBARDMENT
... I believe a large planetoid or comet came into tidal proximity to the earth causing widespread upheaval and accretion of mass to the earth in the form of the "matar" -- the Chicxulub was just one of many; in my imagination, the body would have broken up and send bits tumbling to earth.
=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:35 pm
- Asteroid Bombardment
- Webb said: Astroblemes ... can be associated stratum by stratum with the geologic column from the Cambrian forward ... [but none] in the Pre-Cambrian
- It would be good to have a table of astroblemes with coordinates and strata locations. Here's a list in French: http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/impactlistecrateres2.htm.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:34 pm
__ASTEROID BOMBARDMENT
- Looks like this site may be the best list online of global astroblemes etc: http://www.wondermondo.com/Best/World/ListImpactCraters.htm. It shows Ages attributed to each crater, which I assume means what strata they are located in. I looked through the numbers a bit and they seem to cover a long period of Ages, which I think means most of the sedimentary strata on the continents, as Gordon said.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:31 pm
- The list does include some Precambrian aged sites, which is convenient since in my scenario, the initial "matar" impacts would have been on the "Precambrian" pre-flood supercontinent. ... long epochs are the backbone of the standard model, yet virtually all the [non-existent] evidence for them lies in the hiatus between otherwise conformable strata!

__- 7. ASTEROID BOMBARDMENT
LK: Do you think it's possible that the apparent Asteroid Bombardment (matar) during the Great Flood was due to Earth crossing the Asteroid Belt? What would preclude that?
- Don't you think the Bombardment would have caused the flood and continental drift?
GW: I think the flood and drift event [singular] was directly connected with earth interacting with planetoidal bodies. A glimpse at the the earth's placement with respect to the present known asteroids shows that no exotic explanation about the earth's transposition is necessary [like Earth crossing the Asteroid Belt? - LK]. Several possibilities here:
a. A planet swung by Earth (perhaps Venus, which is currently in a tidally phased rotation pattern with Earth), knocking Earth's rotation into a wobble
b. A planet swept through the asteroids, disrupting whatever was there and sending bits streaming by Earth
c. A comet collided with the earth breaking up as it neared, causing the preponderance of the "matar" to fall over the 5 month time
LK: Wouldn't the same event have been the cause of the bombardment on the Moon and possibly on Mars and many other bodies? So, if so, that suggests that they all went through the Asteroid belt to me. Not you?
GW: Why not? My studies have mainly been terrestrial, but the evidence abounds elsewhere in the solar system! But again, the asteroids are really all around us, and a major disruption in the belt could have affected earth as I suggested, but that's just one of many possible scenarios.
CC: I'm not sure I agree that the flood was caused by ET events, but I agree that something came through and upset a lot of apple carts. Recently I've been studying the similarity between the mares on the Moon and on Mars. I rather think that both of them got re-melted by something, instead of the mares filling up with lava flows. But the chance of two different bodies undergoing the exact same process, at exactly the same time (i.e., toward the end of the Late Heavy Bombardment) is relatively slight. So I think that something triggered them both. It could have been the thermalization of the impacts of the Bombardment, or gravitational deformation from a large body passing by.
- By "Late Heavy Bombardment", I'm just referring to all of the impact craters on the Moon and on Mars, and the fact that there are many of them in the highlands, but only a few in the lowlands. This means that the lowlands on both the Moon and on Mars were both molten at the same time.
LK: What's the evidence for melting on the mares and on Mars?
CC: It's just the flatness of the mares, and the absence of source volcanoes.
LK: Do you know of evidence of melting in the Moon rocks?
CC: Ummm... I don't know. What would be the difference between my "melting" and the volcanism in the standard model?
LK: Conventional vulcanism comes through volcanoes, except for flood basalts.
CC: So in megaflow eruptions, there isn't going to be an extinct volcano left afterwards, is that correct?
GW: The highly fluid nature of flood basalt is such that no cones were formed and the originating vents are left submerged and invisible to the investigator.
CC: Gordon, what would be the make/break telltale signs that the mares on the Moon and on Mars would definitely be megaflows, and not just general re-melting of the bodies due to some other energy source (such as tidal deformation)?
GW: An astronaut geologist needs to observe the basalt flows to see columnar jointing below and vesicular pattern above, then I would know the maria are mega flows; until then I'm open to any good explanations, such as yours:-)
CC: Is the columnar jointing a result of crystalization, or is it something else?
GW: Cooling of the flow is approximately uniform over the entire surface of the flow, causing a shrinkage pattern that produces the roughly hexagonal columns. The sides of the columns are conchoidal, but the tops are relatively flat where the top part of the flow [vesicular basalt] gets eroded away. Since there is no erosion on the Moon, this structure would have to be exposed in profile somewhere for the astro-geologist to see.
LK: Aren't there closeup images of any of the mares, or aren't there even Apollo landing sites there, which would be clear enough to tell what caused the flat surface?
CC: It sounds like the make/break evidence that I'm looking for would then be just the vesicular pattern. Is basalt too low in viscosity for this? In other words, I can understand air bubbles being trapped in felsic magma, and still being in the ejecta, leaving such characteristics after cooling. But what if the lava had plenty of time to out-gas -- would it still be vesicular?10
GW: Right, no it would not be vesicular, but the rapidly cooling top surface of each flow is more brittle than the columnar "underbelly"... The analogy I use for students is like pouring coke into a glass, then rapidly freezing the glass...the crystals would be characteristic in the bottom of the glass, but full of airpockets above. This is a different picture than what you are describing I think?
CC: Well, I was just trying to see if there was any way of ruling out any of the various possibilities. BTW, as you know, without much of an atmosphere on either the Moon or Mars, the lava wouldn't have cooled quickly, because there wouldn't have been much thermal conduction, nor much convection to transport the heat away. So it sounds like the lava (if that's what it was) would have had plenty of time to out-gas.
GW: I agree with you on the convection point. Regardless, the columnar pattern should show up if it's basalt.
LK: Charles said the Moon is made of granite, like the Earth's continents.
CC: Actually, they have found both granite and basalt on the Moon, is that correct?
- BTW, I'm currently reconsidering whether or not I actually believe that the Moon impacted the Earth. The reason is because of the remelting that occurred at the same time as Mars (if that's what it was). This would mean that the Moon couldn't have been involved in such a catastrophic collision, or it would have been totally remelted, and there wouldn't be any highlands left.
LK: Charles, you said in your papers that Earth's and the Moon's granites are a lot alike, more than any other planets. Didn't you? What would account for that?
CC: Yes, but I'm just no longer sure that it's necessarily quite that simple. If there are basalts on the Moon, especially in the mares, then it isn't that the Moon is made entirely of the same stuff as the Earth's continents.
LK: Maybe Earth's basalt and granite ALL came from the protoMoon.
CC: Yes, that's possible.
GW: I'm on the side of Charles' mind change; I don't accept the collision theory of Moon and Earth, nor for that matter the ejected Moon theory.
LK: I linked to some lunar images. Check them out a few lines below. See the links?
- Charles, do you have a very clear idea how a close approach between "planets" would cause melting of the surfaces?
CC: I don't know what you mean by "very clear", but I was thinking that the thermalization of tidal deformation might do it. This is generally considered to be elastic deformation, which doesn't produce heat, but in my model, it is driving telluric currents, which could remelt the crust.
LK: Okay, that makes plenty of sense.
- And could Mars have approached closely to the Moon, as EU theorists sometimes speculate, and could that produce melted surfaces?
GW: Due to the tidally syncopated rotations of Earth and Venus, I suspect this was the near approach involved, which could have thrown Mars into its highly elliptical orbit as well as disrupting both the surfaces of Mars and the Moon.
LK: Gordon, can you tell anything about melting from this lunar mare image? http://cseligman.com/text/moons/humorum.jpg
Or this one? http://cseligman.com/text/moons/rille.jpg
GW: Not really...

185
XX 1st Draft / 1 = [1-2a] The Great Flood
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:15:51 pm »
[1-2a] The Great Flood
- GRAY'S GREAT FLOOD - GARDENER'S GREAT FLOOD - GREAT FLOOD - GREAT FLOOD ..BROWN'S GREAT FLOOD ..GREAT FLOOD VS GLACIATION - DURING GREAT FLOOD

__GRAY'S GREAT FLOOD
http://beforeus.com
-  ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS
001. Deserts from nuclear war?
002. Former civilizations in Antarctica, Greenland
003. Ancient underground tunnels useful today?
004. Ancient micro technology
005. World maps before "discoverers" came
006. Changes in maps
007. Pre-Aboriginal paintings in Australia
008. Tut's gold from Australia?
009. Micro technology
010. The Black Knight
011. Ancient Chinese were that "mysterious" race?
012. Ancient voyage India to Rome?
013. Tunnels explored to the end?
015. The catacombs of Rome
016. Help! No ancient tunnel pictures!
017. Ancient civilizations and God
018. Religious beliefs of ancient races
019. Ancient giants - mere fantasy?
EARTH CHANGES
301. Earth's last flip-over
302. Sun and earth
303. The continents divided
304. Fitting of the continents
305. How Antarctica became frozen

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:55 am
__GARDENER'S GREAT FLOOD
- Flood Deposited Strata. The Noah's Flood paper says the sedimentary rock strata consist of 5 megasequences, where the strata are conforming, meaning they're parallel to each other like pages in a book, and there are 6 unconformities between them, where strata immediately above and below each of them don't conform, apparently because there was time for some erosion to occur or the lower strata shifted or something. The theory is that all of the conforming layers in each megasequence were deposited about the same time by a 2,500 m high series of tsunami waves, which calmed down for a few weeks, then happened again 6 times, about once a month, so each megasequence was followed by a pause, then another tsunami. Berthault's experiments prove this is possible, if not probable. The strata were deposited wet and it took many years to dry out and harden. The tsunamis may have been caused by gravitational attraction to a large body that was circling the Earth about once a month on an elliptical orbit. The best candidates seem to be the Moon, or Mars, or Venus.
- Either the animals immediately after the Flood survived on Noah's ark or a space ship or something, or the Flood failed to cover some of the land. As Mike Fischer says, the strata were deposited during the Flood, but the mountain ranges didn't form till a few centuries later, when the Shock Dynamics impact broke up the supercontinent and caused some flooding too. As Gordon says, the Grand Canyon eroded soon after the main Flood when the two large lakes there, Grand Lake and Hopi Lake, drained through the canyon. When the Shock Dynamics event occurred later, the strata were folded into mountain ranges by compressive heating after they were already somewhat hardened.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:57 pm
__GREAT FLOOD
Flood Legends From Around the World
http://nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
I rearranged them to show them from East to West and North to South, pretty much.
D = Destruction by Water
. --- G = (God) Divine Cause
. --- ----- W = Warning Given
. --- --- --- --- H = Humans Spared
. --- --- --- --- ----- A = Animals Spared
. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- V = Saved in a Vessel
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 32 U.S.A.- Hawaiians
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 33 Vanualu- Melanesians
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 14 French Polynesia- Raiatea
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 13 Fiji- Walavu-levu tradition
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 26 New Zealand- Maori
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 01 Australia- Kurnai
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 05 Borneo- Sea Dayak
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 09 China- Lolo
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 23 Malay Peninsula- Jekun
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 34 Vietnam- Bahnar
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 06 Burma- Singpho
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 18 India- Andaman Islands
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 19 India- Bhil
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 20 India- Kamar
D --- . --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 28 Russia- Vogul
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 21 Iran- Zend-Avesta
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 02 Babylon- Berossus' account
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 03 Babylon- Gilgamesh epic
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 11 East Africa- Masai
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 12 Egypt- Book of the Dead
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 15 Greece- Lucian's account
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 22 Italy- Ovid's poetry
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 35 Wales- Dwyfan/Dwyfan legend
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 17 Iceland- Eddas
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 07 Canada- Cree
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 08 Canada- Montagnais
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 29 U.S.A. (Alaska)- Kolusches
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 30 U.S.A. (Alaska)- Tlingit
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 31 U.S.A. (Arizona)- Papago
D --- . --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 24 Mexico- Codex Chimalpopoca
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 25 Mexico- Huichol
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 10 Cuba- original natives
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 16 Guyana- Macushi
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 04 Bolivia- Chiriguano
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 27 Peru- Indians of Huarochiri
35 -- 18 -- 17 -- 35 -- 24 -- 32 -- Total Occurrences out of 35
The G's and W's are irrelevant to me, but I didn't feel like making the effort to remove them.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:03 pm
Deucalion's flood was caused by a lake escaping from its location due to earthquake. I also mentioned the Welsh 'flood' which was actually about a town sinking. There is a similar French tale about Lys(?).
many ancient peoples speak of alternating catastrophes of flood and fire. That which causes flood comes from the direction of one constellation and that which causes fire comes from the direction of a different constellation. Of the top of my head I think fire is Cancer.
As I've mentioned, my current focus is on the LBA collapse. I do not see any flood there - electrics and lots of fire, yes.
--------------------Postby Roshi » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:55 pm
Flood stories from around the world: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
Wintu (north central California); Papago (Arizona).

__GREAT FLOOD
Then - between 15000 and 12000 years ago, there was this giant flood. Caused by a shift in Earth's orbit, or as you say - a giant body passing by, or who knows what else. I agree with the electric discharge that shaped the features of Mars, maybe that's when a planet (Phaeton?) passed near Mars and was destroyed, and caused chaos on Earth. This is my version of history.

__BROWN'S GREAT FLOOD
- WALTER BROWN'S FLOOD INFO
I don't find Brown's Hydroplate theory to be plausible, but his online book has a lot of good flood info
- LIQUEFACTION
- Liquefaction During the Flood
- SUMMARY: Liquefaction ... played a major role in rapidly sorting sediments, plants, and animals during the flood. Indeed, the worldwide presence of sorted fossils and sedimentary layers shows that a gigantic global flood occurred. Massive liquefaction also left other diagnostic features such as cross-bedded sandstone, plumes, mounds, and fossilized footprints.
- The Origin of Strata and Layered Fossils
What would happen to buried animals and plants in temporarily liquefied sediments?
- As we will see, fluid-like sediments produced a buoyancy that largely explains why fossils show a degree of vertical sorting and why sedimentary rocks all over the world are typically so sharply layered. During liquefaction [common with water saturated soil during earthquakes], denser particles sink and lighter particles (and dead organisms, soon to become fossils) float up — until a liquefaction lens is encountered. Lenses of water form along nearly horizontal paths if the sediments below those horizontal paths are more permeable than those above, so more water flows up into each lens than out through its roof. Sedimentary particles and dead organisms buried in the sediments were sorted and resorted into vast, thin layers.
- STRATA FORMATION
- A sedimentary layer often spans hundreds of thousands of square miles. (River deltas, where sediment thicknesses grow most rapidly [in modern times], are a tiny fraction of that area.) Liquefaction during a global flood would account for the vast expanse of these thick layers. Current processes and eons of time do not.
- One thick, extensive sedimentary layer has remarkable purity. The St. Peter sandstone, spanning about 500,000 square miles in the central United States, is composed of almost pure quartz, similar to sand on a white beach. It is hard to imagine how any geologic process, other than global liquefaction, could achieve this degree of purity over such a wide area.21 Almost all other processes involve mixing, which destroys purity.
- Today, sediments are usually deposited in and by rivers — along a narrow line. However, individual sedimentary rock layers are spread over large geographical areas, not on long narrow, streamlike paths. Liquefaction during the flood acted on all sediments and sorted them over wide areas in weeks or months.
- FOSSIL ORDER
- [An] experiment showed that the natural order of settling following death was, from the bottom up: amphibian, reptile, mammal, and finally bird.18 This order of relative buoyancy correlates closely with “the evolutionary order,” but, of course, evolution was not the cause. Other factors, also influencing burial order at each geographical location, were: liquefaction lenses; which animals were living in the same region; and each animal’s mobility before the flood overtook it.
- FLATTENED FOSSILS BETWEEN THIN LAYERS
- Many fossilized fish are flattened between extremely thin sedimentary layers. This requires squeezing the fish to the thinness of a sheet of paper without damaging the thin sedimentary layers directly above and below. How could this happen? Because dead fish usually float, something must have pressed the fish onto the seafloor. Even if tons of sediments were dumped through the water and on top of the fish, thin [flat] layers would not lie above and below the fish. Besides, it would take many thin layers, not one, to complete the burial. We do not see this happening today. However, liquefaction would sort sediments into thousands of thin layers. During each wave cycle, liquefaction lenses would simultaneously form at various depths in the sedimentary column. Fish that floated up into a water lens would soon be flattened when the lens finally drained. [Water hammers and flutter vibrated the sediments as explained below.]
... WATER HAMMERS ...
- Water hammers occur, often with a loud bang, when a fluid flowing in a pipe is suddenly stopped (or slowed) by closing (or narrowing) a valve, such as a faucet. A water hammer is similar to the collision of a long train. The faster and more massive the flowing volume of water, the greater the sudden compression (or pressure pulse) throughout the pipe as the water is slowed or stopped. A water hammer concentrates energy, just as a hammer striking a nail concentrates energy and produces forces many times greater than a resting hammer.
- FLUTTER
- Vibrations often begin when a fluid (a liquid or gas) flows along a relatively thin, flexible surface, such as the wing of an airplane or a flat plate. If (a) the flowing fluid continually “thumps” or pushes the flexible surface back toward its neutral position, and (b) the “thumping” frequency approaches any natural frequency of the wing or plate, large, potentially damaging oscillations (or resonances), called flutter, can occur.
- Water [moving] beneath earth’s crust [in large caves and aquifers along with tidal waves over the crust] during the flood caused the crust to flutter, and its large area gave it great flexibility. Each narrowing of the subsurface flow channel by the vibrating crust slowed [vast amounts] of water and produced water hammers that “thumped” the crust at each of its natural frequencies. Undulations rippled throughout the crust, producing other water hammers, more undulations, pulsations ..., and huge flutter amplitudes. Most people have heard water pipes banging or have seen pipes burst when only a few cubic feet of water were slowed. Imagine the excruciating pressures from rapidly slowing a “moving underground ocean.”12
- SEDIMENT SOURCE/S
- Sediments, such as sand and clay, are produced by eroding crystalline rock, such as granite or basalt. Sedimentary rocks are cemented sediments. On the continents, they average more than a mile in thickness. Today, two-thirds of continental surface rocks are sedimentary; one-third is crystalline. Was crystalline rock, eroded at earth’s surface, the source of the original sediments? If it was, the first blanket of eroded sediments would prevent that rock from producing additional sediments. The more sediments produced, the fewer the sediments that could be produced. Exposed crystalline rock would disappear long before all today’s sediments and sedimentary rocks could form. Transporting those new sediments, often great distances, is another difficulty. Clearly, most sediments did not come from the earth’s surface. ...
- [I see 4 possibilities for the source of sand and clay sediments. They could have come from:
1. erosion of the granite continental shelf of the supercontinent;
2. erosion of the basalt ocean floor;
3. erosion of subsurface granite or basalt;
4. precipitation of detritus from space.
The first is Baumgardner's theory. The second is other creationists' view. The third is Brown's. The last is Cardona's, with Saturn flares being the specific source. #1 seems the most plausible, since megatsunamis caused by a planetoidal/asteroidal tidal pull would mostly affect the supercontinental shelf, probably in the western Pacific around Asia. Baumgardner explained that high velocity water, as in a megatsunami, causes cavitation, which can rapidly erode solid rock via vacuum pressure. But the shelf may also have contained a lot of sand and clay from normal rain erosion of the supercontinent for thousands or millions of years. That could be moved even more easily by "tidal waves".]
- MOUNDS
- Liquefaction Plumes and Mounds. The large water content of liquefied sand layers (40%) would have made them quite buoyant. Whenever a low-density, fluid layer (such as a water-sand mixture) underlies a denser, liquefied layer, the lighter fluid, if shaken, will float up in plumes through the denser fluid. Sand plumes that penetrated overlying layers are seen in many places on earth.
- During the [flood], liquefied water-sand mixtures in many places erupted like small volcanoes. Being surrounded and permeated by water, they would have quickly slumped into the shape of an upside-down bowl — a liquefaction mound. As the flood waters drained at the end of the flood, most liquefaction mounds were swept away, because they did not have time to be cemented. However, mounds inside postflood lakes (basins) were cemented as each lake cooled and its dissolved silica and calcium carbonate were forced out of solution. If a lake later breached and dumped its water, the larger cemented mounds could resist the torrent of rushing water and retain their shapes. The basins that held Grand and Hopi Lakes contain hundreds of such mounds. The sudden breaching of those lakes several centuries after the flood carved the Grand Canyon.
- Ayers Rock ... in central Australia ... has characteristics of both a broad liquefaction plume and a liquefaction mound.
- Missing Mesozoic STRATUM
- Actually, cutting through the Kaibab Plateau is a relatively minor problem, and carving the entire Grand Canyon is not even half the problem. The Grand Canyon’s rim consists of hard Kaibab Limestone, typically 350 feet thick. When you walk to the canyon’s edge to look down, you are standing on Kaibab Limestone. It extends away from the canyon in all directions, covering about 10,000 square miles. However, rising 1,000 feet above this Kaibab Limestone at a few dozen isolated spots are softer (crumbly or weakly cemented) Mesozoic rocks; they are always capped on top by a very hard rock, such as lava. Obviously, lava did not flow up to the top; lava, which flows downhill, collected in a depression and hardened. Later, a fast-moving sheet of water flowed over northern Arizona and swept all the soft Mesozoic rock off the hard Kaibab Limestone — except for the few dozen spots capped and protected by hard rock.
- Why must it have been a sheet of water? Falling rain would cut only channels. Flowing rivers or streams, even if they meandered for millions of years, would not uniformly sweep 1,000 feet or more of material off almost all of these 10,000 square miles of the fairly flat Kaibab Limestone. Besides, meandering rivers would produce meandering patterns. Therefore, before you can excavate 800 cubic miles of rock below the rim to form the Grand Canyon, something must sweep off almost all the Mesozoic rock above — a much larger excavation project. Surprisingly, the Mesozoic rock has also been swept off the Kaibab Plateau. How could water get so high? Maybe the sweeping process — the Great Denudation — occurred before the Kaibab Plateau rose. [YES! The plateau and all mountain ranges were uplifted after a large asteroid impact split up the supercontinent, apparently a short time after the flood.]
- Petrified Forest.
- Probably the world’s largest concentration of petrified wood is in the Petrified Forest National Park in Arizona. (Trainloads of petrified wood were removed before the region became a protected park in 1906.) Few people realize that this park lies inside the former Hopi Lake. Why does wood petrify, and how were these unusual conditions met in Hopi Lake?
- Researchers using silica-rich solutions have duplicated petrification in laboratories. [In the flood] (1) ... silica ... was dissolved in the hot subterranean water and (2) ... large preflood trees58 [were] floating in warm postflood lakes....
“... silica nucleation and deposition can occur directly and rapidly on exposed cellulose surfaces.” Sigleo, p. 1404.
- “The majority of these trees [in Petrified Forest National Park] were very tall. On the average the logs are about 80 to 100 feet long and three to four feet in diameter, but some range up to 200 feet in length and ten feet in diameter at the base.” Sidney Ash, Petrified Forest: The Story Behind the Scenery (Holbrook, Arizona: Petrified Forest Museum Association, 1985), p. 20.

====================postby Lloyd » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:29 pm
__GREAT FLOOD VS GLACIATION
- "NOT GLACIAL DRIFT, BUT GREAT FLOOD DRIFT"
Problems in the Glacial Theory
Creation Research Society Quarterly, 13(1):25-34, June 1976
[Note: I'm not a creationist, but they published a lot of good science. I suspect that the great majority of glacial evidence is actually great flood evidence as this article explains.]
- DRIFT
... A layer of unconsolidated material [called drift] ... covers the solid sedimentary and igneous rocks in the temperate zones of Europe and North America. ... A ... similar [layer] occurs in parts of India, in South Africa, the tropical zones of South America, and in many mountainous areas of the world.
<<__Question 1 for Gordon: Do you agree that the drift in India, S Africa & S America suggests that the drift layer was deposited before the supercontinent split, because those 3 areas were adjacent on the supercontinent? Europe & N America were also adjacent. I wonder if the other mountainous areas containing drift are adjacent to both of those two north & south locations.>>
<<__Question 2 for Gordon: Why did the drift not lithify during the flood? Is there any other significant amount of drift that wasn't deposited by the Great Flood? And why are there locations with no drift?>
- The material consists of gravel, sand and clay, with many large boulders of variable composition, and innumerable rounded stones and pebbles of all sizes. Often it is hundreds of feet thick. Frequently stratification exists, and it is usually present in the sand in the pattern of cross stratification.
- Cross stratification: http://www.earth.northwestern.edu/individ/brad/baraboo/geology/pics/crossstrat.gif
- Usually referred to as "drift", the material is also known as boulder-clay, diluvium, outwash deposits, glacial moraine, and till. ... In general, the landforms composed of drift have a remarkably fresh appearance. Although they contain loose material, the effects of erosion have been minimal, showing they could not be of great age but must have been formed recently.
<Glacial Theory> Geologists believe that the last of the ice disappeared only a few thousand years ago.
- The [layer] of drift is shaped into a wide variety of structures, [kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings, striations, potholes & erratics, as follows below]....
<<__Question 3 for Gordon: Can you explain how a megatsunami could produce each of the drift types discussed below, i.e. kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings, striations, potholes & erratics? Or can you give a source that explains them all?>
- Images of kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings, striations, potholes & erratics:
- Kame: https://www.dmr.nd.gov/ndgs/ndnotes/Veblens/Images/Diagram-a-1%20copy.jpg
- Esker: http://8c4625.medialib.glogster.com/media/b1c37420af793bb953a2b933c638f1dc0fc6756daff86b6338c9dd65cdcd4599/esker-with-permission.jpg
- Drumlin: http://www.geo-logic.org/Glacial%20Geology/cd33022%20drumlin%20example001,%20www.royalalbertmuseum.ca.gif
- Fluting: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_7CSUyHA0I8/T_8GPcCqaVI/AAAAAAAAAdA/xIt2PSh4Y5E/s1600/GlacialFluting.jpg
- Striations: https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6174/6139928577_aca529683e_b.jpg
- Potholes: https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-geo-images/ae04a988-67fd-4e09-89ef-314ad88f5b75.jpg
- Erratics: http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/32/x150832-004-CFC3FEC0.jpg.pagespeed.ic.I5bgaOeS82.jpg
- KAMES
- Kames are conical mounds usually composed of sandy material.
<Glacial Theory> [Kames] are thought to have been caused by the dumping of glacial debris when the great ice sheets of the glacial age melted.
- ESKERS
- Eskers are long, winding ridges of gravel and sand.... Sometimes branching eskers occur. The eskers are known to stretch for great distances, go up and down hills, and disappear and occur again further on.
<Glacial Theory> [Eskers] are explained in the glacial theory as the debris of rivers formed in or on the glaciers, that was let down when the ice melted.
- RIMMED PLATEAUS
In the prairie regions of Canada and in the northern states of the United States there are various kinds of rimmed plateau, composed of drift. Often these have central depressions containing clay sediments. The rims are often composed of stony material and contorted drift layers. Some of the rimmed plateau or prairie mounds are of large size, with areas of several square miles, and may reach as much as 150 feet above the surrounding hummocky and pitted regions.
Hummocky: http://www.seddepseq.co.uk/SEDIMENTOLOGY/Sedimentology_Features/Strat_Bedforms/Hummock1.jpg
<Glacial Theory> The rimmed plateau and prairie mounds are explained in the glacial theory as landforms created during the melting of the great ice-sheets. The glaciers, it is believed, sometimes melted in such a way that isolated blocks of ice were formed, that wasted away and deposited their debris in various kinds of rimmed structures and plateau.
- DRUMLINS, FLUTINGS
- Drumlins are hills shaped like the inverted bowl of a spoon.... Glacial flutings are similar, elongated parallel ridges and troughs. Individual flutings may stretch for several miles in the prairies of Canada and parts of North Dakota and Montana.
Drumlins and flutings are ... streamlined landforms ... often composed of drift, but many are bedrock or partly bedrock. Some have a mass of bedrock at their upstream ends. ... In drumlin swarms the drumlins all have locally parallel orientation ... sometimes covering thousands of square miles.
<Glacial Theory> Drumlins and flutings are explained as the effects of the movement of the ice in the glacial theory. The ice-sheet flowing across the countryside shaped and moulded the rocks and previously deposited layers of glacial debris into these remarkable ... landforms....
<<__Question 4 for Gordon: Could the parallel Nebraska dunes be drumlins or flutings? Is there any way an ice sheet could move significantly and streamline any of these drift types?>
- STRIATIONS
- Striations are frequently present on the surface of the bedrock underlying the layer of drift. In some areas the bare rocks uncovered by drift are also scratched and grooved, as if by movement of stones across them.... Within the layers of gravel in the drift there are many rocks and boulders that are striated.
<Glacial Theory> These are thought to have been transported by ice and abraded in the process. ... [Bedrock surface striations are] attributed to the ice-sheets in the glacial theory [with] large numbers of stones being carried along in its base, that gouged the bedrock as the ice-sheet went along.
<<__Question 5 for Gordon: How could megatsunamis make striations on bedrock and on the rocks that they push around?>
- POTHOLES
- In the bedrock underneath the drift, and at many places where the bedrock is exposed, there are deep vertical potholes, ... usually filled up with the drift material, sand and gravel and large boulders.
<Glacial Theory> [Potholes] are often explained by reference to the glacial theory. These are attributed to glacial "moulins" or waterfalls tumbling down crevasses in the ice, that eroded the bedrock and caused these deep holes.
<<__Question 6 for Gordon: The Washington scablands that formed from the Missoula flood have potholes that formed by vortex cavitation during the flood, apparently, so were potholes in bedrock under the drift more likely form from flood than from glaciation? Are the scabland potholes ever filled with drift? Maybe this image answers the question: http://www.paddling.net/sameboat/Images/riverpotholes10.jpg >
- ERRATICS
- Large boulders, ... known as "erratics" ..., are found in some regions with a composition quite different from that of the bedrock [and other drift] in the vicinity. These may sometimes be as large as houses, and are usually rounded, though some are of irregular shape. In the drift there are stones and pebbles of varying composition and appearance, but most of the rocks reflect the composition of the bedrock underneath.
<Glacial Theory> The large boulders ... are considered to have been transported from regions afar by the moving ice-sheets. ...
<<__Question 7 for Gordon: Why is most drift of the same rock type as the bedrock under it? If the flood transported large erratic boulders, shouldn't smaller kinds of drift material also be erratic?>
... ... Flint provides a table of some examples of ... erratics ... [here modified & supplemented]:
- Erratics
 Moved .. Uplifted
distance: height: .. From:
> 18 km; 1000 m; Mount Katahdin, Maine
> 100 km; 900 m; Adirondack Mountains, New York
160 km; 500 m; Allegheny Plateau, central New York
80 km; .. 900 m; Killington Peak, Green Mountains, Vermont
1,300 km; 1,300 m; Rocky Mountains of Alberta
-----------------------------
Moved dist: .. To: .... From:
100-1250 km; UK-Russia; Scandinavia & Finland
1000 km; .... Missouri; Ontario
... km; ..............; Alberta
... km; ..............; Manitoba
... km; ..............; Northwest Territories
... km; ..............; [Ireland &] Wales
... km; ..............; Northern Germany
- These erratics, [many] perched higher than their sources, if they are to be attributed to ice, would require that the direction of the flow of the ice was opposite to the slope of the land. Flint suggested that the stones were carried in the base of the ice, which flowed uphill, rather than that they somehow migrated upwards through the ice. ... How Could the Ice Move Uphill?... Howorth accused the glacialists of departing from the principles of physics and appealing to "transcendental causes". ... Howorth believed that the motivation of geologists who favored the glacial theory was their reluctance to accept a catastrophic alternative. ... In his book Ice or Water he [said:] ... Their real inspiration has been the fervent hope embodied in the words with which Sir R. Ball concludes his ill-fated book on the Glacial Age. "The appeal to ice removed the glacial period from the position of a 'catastrophic' phenomenon. It placed the ice-sheet as an implement at the disposal of the geological uniformitarian."

186
XX 1st Draft / X = [1-1] The Former Supercontinent
« on: January 07, 2017, 06:55:48 pm »
[1-1] The Former Supercontinent
PREFLOOD EARTH ..EARLY CATASTROPHISM - 5. TIME OF DINOSAURS - Topic #1: The Supercontinent
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:02 pm
__PREFLOOD EARTH
- Is this confusing Earth with Paradise in the Sky?
- Didn't continental drift occur centuries after the Flood to cause the Ice Age?
... Old Earth creationism ... accepts the big bang, radiometric dating, the flood as a local [mid east] event; and among other things regarding Adam, argues that all hominids [incl. Neanderthals] except Homo sapiens sapiens were not human.
... Genesis chaps. 1 - 4 to indicate several key things about the early [pre-flood] earth:
- 1. Low topography -- the main rivers proceeded from a single stream and separated, like a delta, as a opposed to merging tributaries in a watershed; Psalm 104 [lit: "the mountains they go up, the valleys they go down"] also adds that the boundary mountain ranges went up after the flood, making a barrier against a future catastrophic flood.
- 2. Single land mass is implied by the reference to a single ocean.
- 3. Warm climate worldwide -- no seasonal weather until after the flood, primordial seasons based on astronomy
- 4. No matar, and no rain -- the initiating factors of the flood were not in effect, suggesting a greenhouse climate.
- 5. Humans and all animals were contemporary.
- 6. Several factors [eg. atmospheric] contributed to longevity of lifespans for all organisms, incl people.
- The sending of the matar initiated the flood event. - For the mountains to have risen, as they were witnessed to have done at the end of the flood [second half of the flood year], what we understand as continental drift must have occurred during the first half. Running the tape backwards, so to speak, the "fountains of the deep" [now mid-ocean rifts] would have been faults originally through the middle of the one-land mass. So the fountains indicate the beginning of the crustal displacement and seafloor spreading which cascaded into all of the other factors of the flood, ending in the boundary mountains and subsequent formation of volcanic chains and island arcs.
- Therefore, in catastrophic flood geology the __sedimentary strata belong to the flood era, not before [__except the variously metamorphosed Pre-Cambrian groupings__], and only some following. These later deposits would have been in conjunction with the melt-back of the glaciers and rising sea levels in the few centuries following the flood. There is no macro-evolution in this picture, and all the fossils are a result of the flooding, as their sedimentary resting places affirm.
- So the SD events [if accepted] must have been in conjunction with the early flood era, not an event of centuries later.
- I don't really care if the matar resulted from the earth's passage through the asteroid belt, or if the asteroid belt resulted from some interplanetary event that coincided with the bombardment of earth, or if it was Venus, Mars or some other large planetoid that interacted with the Earth. The least exotic view seems to be a single body passing by and interacting for a time [a la Velikovsky] with the earth. I think the evidence is sparse for most versions of what caused the bombardment, so I base my timelines on the evidence left behind. There are major astroblemes associated with every major sedimentary stratum [what the standard modelers think of as epochs], so I take it also as a plain reading of the biblical record that the start and stop of the matar bookend the first 150 days of the flood event, and this further supports that the "geologic column" resides in that time frame.
- Post-flood results:
1. Mountainous topography, resulting from the drift event of the flood
2. Separated continents
3. Seasonal weather, from the "new" tilt of the earth, multiple climates world-wide, and a global wind system that was not in effect during the early greenhouse -- also a gradual global warming trend following the glaciation
4. Rain as a regular event
5. Humans and animals preserved and speciated from the few survivors of the flood event (another thread topic)
6. Decreasing longevity over the centuries

====================postby Lloyd » Thu May 05, 2016 7:09 am
__EARLY CATASTROPHISM
- Grey Cloud at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16207&p=113289#p113289 denied catastrophism and said "Many, if not most, of the myths relating to stars etc are conveying information about navigation rather than catastrophe". I'm not familiar with star myths, but most myths were about the planets, Saturn, Venus and Mars, I believe, and they were often about catastrophes. Here's some background.
- Catastrophism and Anthropology
[SIS C&C Review] 5 Mar 2003
=-1]http://www.catastrophism.com/intro/search.cgi?zoom_query=%22Both+historians+and+anthropologists+were%22&zoom_per_page=25&zoom_and=1&zoom_cat[]=-1
From: SIS Chronology& Catastrophism Review (1994) "Proceedings of the 1993 Cambridge Conference" Issue Contents Catastrophism and Anthropology - The Influence of Neo-Catastrophism on the Interpretation of Flood Rituals and Ceremonies Benny Josef Peiser School of Human Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University
- Introduction
- __Only 150 years ago, most of Europe's leading scholars were convinced that the ancient flood traditions and festivals originated from natural catastrophes that had occurred during man's early history. Both historians and anthropologists were able to point to a rich variety of catastrophe legends found throughout the world.__< For more than 2500 years these ancient traditions were generally viewed as historical. Not only did all the famous scholars of antiquity write about these natural disasters but, moreover, __during the 18th and 19th century the newly established science of geology gave rise to findings and strata which clearly seemed to testify to major natural upheavals. As a consequence, scientists of Europe's enlightenment (among others Vico, Boulanger, Whiston, Cuvier) related the origins of ancient customs and rituals to these past cataclysms.__< Vico and Boulanger accepted the ancient belief that the Earth had undergone many natural disasters and that from these global upheavals all institutions and religious ceremonies were derived.
- Yet, with the emergence of 19th century evolutionary gradualism, all fields of science banned catastrophe theories completely from universities, research and scientific journals. Over and over again, historians and anthropologists rejected any historical reading of the ancient catastrophe legends and rituals by reference to the works of Darwin and Lyell [1. __When Frazer published his comprehensive study on the worldwide story of the great flood, he stressed the paradigmatic importance of Darwin's theory of evolution, consequently rejecting every possibility that the tradition originated from historical events [2. According to Frazer's biographer, the implicit purpose of this rejection was 'to undermine the Bible and religion by insisting on its folkloric stratum, thereby associating it with savagery'__< [3. Since then, 20th century anthropology has tended to view the ancient flood traditions as mere reflections of 'mythical' thinking, whereas catastrophe rituals and festivals are almost totally ignored [4. As a result, anthropological studies which have focused on the relationship between religious ceremonies and catastrophe rituals and traditions of natural disasters are very rare. Despite the fact that research in the field of rituals has quickened its pace over the course of this century, ceremonies which re-enacted or commemorated natural catastrophes have been paid relatively little attention [5. In the light of new astronomical discoveries and the emergence of scientific neo-catastrophism, it is necessary to re-evaluate the historicity and the possible effects of the ancient flood catastrophes. Since astronomy, geology and biology have finally accepted the catastrophic history of planet Earth and its inhabitants, it is time for anthropologists to recognise the findings of natural science and to adopt them in their research.
- Collective reactions to natural catastrophes
- Natural catastrophes do not necessarily lead to collective responses in form of catastrophe games or rituals. In many cases, the scope of the disaster is limited and the disaster agent is clearly identified. However, if a natural catastrophe results in extreme devastation and destruction, or if the agent of destruction is unknown, the disaster can prove to be a traumatic experience which triggers post-disaster collective reactions. These activities stem from the desire of communities struck by catastrophe to influence and pacify the agents of destruction. Furthermore, expressive (and in most cases violent) responses are triggered by collective anger and tension following traumatic catastrophes. To avoid internal violence and civil strife, the growing aggression within a community of survivors has to be acted out in a structured, organised and generally accepted (i.e. ritualised) form. It was particularly conspicuous in antiquity that many catastrophe games and festivals took place either to commemorate foregone catastrophes or to avoid future disasters. Although there is considerable overlap, these games and festivals can be classified into three different categories: i) festivals, which were held in commemoration of a foregone disaster; ii) playful rituals, with an apotropaic function of hindering future natural catastrophes; iii) games, which dramatised and re-enacted a natural catastrophe. Most of these ceremonies were held in the form of combats, blood sacrifices and religious rituals or, alternatively, through mimetic dramatisation of the catastrophe. Right from the very start they had the supposed function of pacifying natural forces and of hindering an apocalyptic end of the world.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:13 pm
- Catastrophism Topics
At the end of my previous post I listed Catastrophism topics, which are meant to be chronologically sequential, like this:
1. Pre-Flood Supercontinent > 2. Saturn Flare > 3. Civilization > 4. Asteroid Bombardment > 5. Continental Drift > 6. Flood > 7. Fossils > 8. Mountain Uplift > 9. Erosion > 10. Glaciation
#1-#3 apparently occurred at least 1,000 years before the main cataclysm. #4-#9 occurred during the main cataclysm about 4,350 years ago. #10 started soon after the cataclysm and lasted a few hundred years. Here is a comparison between GW's and CC's models for the origin of the Supercontinent.
__Topic #1: The Supercontinent
__GW: SUPERCONTINENT ORIGIN
-ANISOTROPY: On a primordial mostly molten earth, anisotropy predisposes one side of the earth to melt or erupt more basaltic lava
-this becomes the early Pacific basin.
-PLANETARY ENCOUNTER: An early close tidal encounter with the Moon [or other astronomical body] facilitated this eruptive phase.
-major bombardment would have not yet occurred
-REBOUND: The accompanying release of pressure initiates an opposite side upheaval,
-evidenced by basement continental rocks having a composition similar to the mantle materials, eg. granites,
-which have undergone pressure-induced metamorphism during the uplift process.
-EARTH ROTATION: Stabilization of the earth's ~24 hr rotation would have occurred at this time.
-PRECAMBRIAN: Washing over of this basement continental mass by the seas during uplift covers the basement material with sedimentary Pre-Cambrian strata,
-as well as some primordial continental slope canyons/coastal valleys
-which would predispose additional deposition events around the edges of the supercontinent.
-UPLIFT: The accumulation of overburden keeps in motion the [isostatic] uplift of the supercontinent to its pre-cataclysm level
-3 km above the average surface level,
-with a continental root extending down a few dozen kilometers.
-Natural uplifted "cells" [cratons] at this point joined together [the "ur" supercontinent]
-acquire potential energy under the pressure of isostasy,
-and will later become the drifting plates catalyzed into motion by bombardment of the "matar".__<
- __CC: SUPERCONTINENT ORIGIN
http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=4741-4752-56 ... 6199-15407
[LK Summary?: ProtoMoon was tidally extended; part of it soft-landed on Earth as the supercontinent. The remainder went into orbit as the Moon.]
-PROTOMOON GRANITE: Somewhat more telling of an impact is the fact that the Moon is made of granite, and so is the Earth's continental crust,
-but the rest of the Earth (i.e., the oceanic crust, and everything below) is fundamentally different stuff
— most notably of greater density, which is what allows the continents to float on the mantle and extend above sea level.
-The granite could not have been indigenous to the Earth,
-because if it was, it would have bubbled up to the surface when the Earth was entirely molten,
-and it would have leveled quickly under the force of gravity — as fast as irregularities in the surface of a lava lake disappear
— producing a very thin, very flat layer completely covering the heavier basalt.
-So the continental granite had to arrive later, after the Earth had cooled.
-And the impact had to be gentle enough not to completely re-melt the Earth.
-FLATTENED SUPERCONTINENT: Thereafter, the granite slowly pancaked into the original super-continent of Pangaea,
-which then rifted into the modern continents, under the force of gravity.
-(This disregards hypotheses concerning earlier supercontinents, such as Rodinia andColumbia, for lack of a force that could recombine the fragments.)
-The arc-like shape of Pangaea is atypical of collisional deposits
— perhaps the collider was spinning, and matter was scraped off of the collider where the rotation caused submersion.
-SIZE COMPARISON: The volume of the Moon is 2.20 × 10^10 km3, while the volume of the continents is 7.58 × 10^9 km3.1
-So Theia would have had a volume of 2.95 × 10^10 km3, and it would have lost 26% of its volume to the Earth, while retaining 74% for itself [the Moon].__<

187
XX 1st Draft / 2 = [1-0] The Millennium of Global Catastrophe 4-5,000 BP
« on: August 06, 2016, 09:32:30 am »
This paper is under construction. It started with a forum discussion at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16025 which is still ongoing. The material here is mainly quoted from that discussion, with much deleted and all reorganized. I plan to use that material as an aid for writing this paper. I'll probably retain some of the quotes, but I expect not a lot of them. As I write the paper, I expect I'll delete most of the forum discussion.

PREQUEL: CATASTROPHIC GEOLOGY
Uniformitarian Geology (like other establishment institutions) is a house of cards ready to fall down, just from the slightest new impact. The weak link in the chain of arguments for conventional geology is the  assumption that sedimentary rock strata were deposited very gradually, each stratum requireing thousands of years to accumulate and lithify. The internet has allowed amateurs to enter serious discussions of science, making it more democratic and less authoritarian. Authoritarianism is coming to be seen as barbaric and outdated, which it is. See the Foreword below for some of the detailed non-religious reasons that strata must have been deposited under catastrophic conditions, not gradualistic ones.

[1-0] CONTENTS
. Contents & Foreword
. Major Earth Events
[1-1] The Former Supercontinent
[1-2] The Great Flood
[1-3] The Supercontinent Breakup & Orogenesis
[1-4] The Ice Age
. Saturn Age
[1-5] Earth Origin
[1-6] Saturn Pole Star
[1-7] Venus Comet
[1-8] Mars Warrior Planet

-----------------------
[1-0] FOREWORD
- OVERVIEW - GEOLOGY BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD - TWO BIG ERRORS IN GEOLOGY
- YOUNG EARTH REASONING - YOUNG EARTH CRITICISMS - 3. CATASTROPHISM BEST EVIDENCE - 9. CATASTROPHISM WEAKEST POINTS - 10. PROMOTION - SURVEY - CHRONOLOGY - MIKE FISCHER'S CHRONOLOGY - GEOCHRONOLOGY - 2. AGE OF THE EARTH - DATING METHODS - DATING METHODS - CATACLYSM DATING - RADIOMETRIC DATING - 4. DATING METHODS - PART 1: DATING ANCIENT CATACLYSM/S - RADIOMETRIC DATING - C14 DATING - C14 DATING ..CATACLYSM DATING ..CATACLYSM DATING
[1-1] The Former Supercontinent
PREFLOOD EARTH ..EARLY CATASTROPHISM - 5. TIME OF DINOSAURS - Topic #1: The Supercontinent
[1-2] The Great Flood
- GRAY'S GREAT FLOOD - GARDENER'S GREAT FLOOD - GREAT FLOOD - GREAT FLOOD ..BROWN'S GREAT FLOOD ..GREAT FLOOD VS GLACIATION - DURING GREAT FLOOD
- 5 MONTH BOMBARDMENT - 5 MONTH BOMBARDMENT - ASTEROID BOMBARDMENT - 7. ASTEROID BOMBARDMENT
..THICK ATMOSPHERE ..ROCK STRATA FORMATION - SEDIMENTARY ROCK ORIGIN - ROCK FORMATION BY TSUNAMIS - GRAND CANYON SAND DUNES - NO OROGENY WITH GREAT FLOOD - SEDIMENTARY STRATA - GREAT FLOOD HUMAN FOSSILS ..FLOOD RUNOFF
- NOAH MYTH - BIBLE GREAT FLOOD - FLOOD MYTHS ..GREAT FLOOD MYTHS ..GREAT FLOOD MYTHS - GREAT FLOOD PROTECTION - AREAS LACKING SEDIMENTARY ROCK - UNFLOODED LANDS - UNFLOODED BEDROCK - GC CHRONOLOGY - COMBINED CATACLYSMS
- WETTER CLIMATE - ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS - CONFERENCE - 1. ADVANCED CIVILIZATION - ATLANTIS - ADVANCED ANCIENT CIVILIZATION - POST-FLOOD RESETTLEMENT - HUMAN MIGRATION - SABOTAGE - ELONGATED SKULLS - ELONGATED SKULLS - ANCIENT ALIENS - BABEL
[1-3] The Supercontinent Breakup & Orogenesis
- IMPACT: GULF OF MEXICO - YOUNGER DRYAS - WORLD CONFLAGRATION - IMPACT - IMPACT - IMPACT ..IMPACT ..DATING CRATERS - PRE-FLOOD YEAR - POST-FLOOD YEAR - EARTH'S TILT - EARTH'S TILT - KT BOUNDARY - SUPERCONTINENT BREAKUP - SUPERCONTINENT BREAKUP - CONTINENTAL DRIFT - 6. CONTINENTAL DRIFT ..CONTINENTAL DRIFT CENTURIES AFTER THE GREAT FLOOD - SEAFLOOR MAGNETIC STRIPING - OROGENY & VULCANISM ..OROGENY CENTURIES AFTER THE FLOOD - TIAHUANACO - EVIDENCE SOURCES
[1-4] The Ice Age
- REFERENCE - 8. GRAND CANYON - GRAND CANYON EROSION ..POTHOLES ..POTHOLES ..MAMMOTHS EXTINCTION - MAMMOTHS - MAMMOTHS - MAMMOTHS (..GREAT FLOOD VS GLACIATION) ..ARCTIC CARNAGE ..ANTARCTICA - GC CRITICISMS - GC CRITICISMS REPLIES - GC CHRONOLOGY

------------------------------------------

FOREWORD

OVERVIEW
I think the following is a rather objective analysis of others' findings on Solar System Chronology.

. Origin.
The Earth and the Moon are of indeterminate ages.

>6k. Supercontinent.
A collision with an asteroid partly formed a supercontinent on Earth and possibly also formed the Moon over 6,000 years ago. The land had no mountains. Earth was shrouded in a much thicker atmosphere.

>6k. Precambrian Strata.
A close encounter with the Moon or an asteroid caused tsunamis that formed pre-Cambrian sedimentary rock strata on the Earth without fossils, also over 6,000 years ago.

6k+. Life.
Life originated on Earth at least 6,000 years ago. Dinosaurs dominated the supercontinent. The climate on the supercontinent centered on the equator was warm.

5k. Great Flood.
A close encounter with a large body caused tsunamis that formed sedimentary rock strata about a mile thick containing fossils on the supercontinent about 5,000 years ago. Many large meteors impacted the Earth. The dinosaurs were mostly wiped out. Much of the atmosphere was lost.

5-4.5k. Mammals.
The supercontinent became dominated by large mammals after the flood.

4.5k. Conflagration.
Large meteors hit the Yucatan, Hudson Bay and possibly Siberia. They caused a conflagration and deposited ash and glass debris about 4,500 years ago.

4.4k. Supercontinent Breakup.
A very large meteor hit the supercontinent north of Madagascar about 4,400 years ago. The impact broke it apart and the continents slid over the Moho layer to near their present positions in a short time. This flooded large areas and killed most of the large mammals. The northern continents were pushed north and Antarctica south into freezing climates. Mountains and volcanoes formed on the continents.

4.4-. Ice Age.
Volcanoes and hurricanes put a lot of dust in the air, which cooled the air and caused precipitation of heavy rain and snow. Glaciation covered much of Europe and North America. This lasted a few hundred years.

4.4-4.2k. Resettlement.
Humans migrated and started bronze-age civilizations in Sumer, Egypt, India, China and possibly Brazil about 4,200 years ago. Myths and religions commemorated the former Golden Age.

>6k-4.4k. Golden Age.
Venus, Mars and Earth were planets of Saturn until about 4,400 years ago, when the system destabilized and broke up, causing major impacts on Earth, the Moon and other bodies.

GEOLOGY BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD

Good news and bad news: the bad news is that society has been increasingly corrupted by corporate profit-making and exploitation, using fraud and other deception.

This Catastrophic Geology is not based on Religious Beliefs. The U.S. started out as a place to practice the Christian ideal of sharing love for all and that has never gone away, but it has come to have much less influence on the public. The Christian ideal was never very pure though either, as it was mixed with irrational fear of God instead of being pure love. Now corporate greed has become the dominant influence in the U.S. Not that profit-making is a bad thing; it isn't. Some, like John Stossel, say greed is a good thing. That's shallow thinking. Profit-making isn't greed, but is merely meeting one's needs. Greed is an addiction to wanting more than one needs, which results in shortages and thus makes it harder for others to meet their own needs.

Nearly all our institutions have become corrupted by corporate greed, even including science and health care. Since the purpose of "everything" has become to make maximum corporate profit, instead of to help everyone, a great deal of fraud has entered into these institutions. The good news is that we now have an opportunity to re-evaluate all of the claims of the institutions, find and highlight all of the fraudulent claims and move forward with new findings that will benefit all.

In this paper I will start with re-examining the history of the solar system. The history of health care, politics and economics would probably have more immediate benefit for the public, but I'll write about that later. Better understanding of the history of the solar system should have benefits for the public as well, since it should lead to better means for humanity to colonize space, i.e. the rocky bodies in space.

The first space work priority should be protecting Earth from asteroid and meteor impacts and cleaning up near space so satellites and spacecraft can orbit Earth or travel away from Earth without colliding with space junk. Next should be setting up bases on the Moon and then on Mars, and later inside asteroids, comets and other moons. Later, Venus should be made habitable by causing some icy asteroids to crash onto it. Earth itself can also harbor a lot more life in the Arctic and Antarctic and on the oceans and even in near space.

TWO BIG ERRORS IN GEOLOGY

1. Radioactive Decay Clock.
Science began to be taken over by corporate interests in the late 1800s and these interests tended to be antireligious. Religious people tended to believe that the Earth was hit with a global flood a few thousand years ago, because the Bible makes that claim, and religious geologists found abundant evidence of such a flood.

The antireligious geologists, who probably wanted to prove the Bible was wrong, were not making much headway until in the early 1900s radioactivity was discovered and along with that was found the decay rates of radioactive elements. The decay rates indicated how old some rock formations were, but the estimates were based on some important unproven assumptions, e.g. that all of the element called lead was a decay product and that the decay rates can never change under any circumstances. __I'll discuss these probably false assumptions later.__

By the way, the Bible very likely is wrong about some things, although the errors may be mostly innocent transcriber errors. But it's apparently not very wrong about the Great Flood. It may be wrong or misunderstood about Noah's Ark.

2. Sedimentary Rock Strata & Fossil Formation.
Religious geologists in the 1800s probably had naive ideas about the Great Flood. The Bible gives the impression that constant heavy rain for 40 days caused the flood and the waters calmly rose up until they overtopped the highest mountains and all the land creatures drowned.

More recent religious geologists have come up with much better ideas. The flood was more likely caused by tsunamis and the tsunamis were likely caused by a large asteroid or the Moon coming close enough to Earth to cause huge tidal waves for several months. And tall mountains likely did not exist yet, so the tsunamis did not need to be so high.

An amateur religious geologist friend says that the Bible mentions that "matar" fell during the flood and he thinks the matar means meteors and the fountains of the deep were meteor splashes in the oceans.

If the flood waters rose calmly just from rain and maybe underground waters, the sedimentary rock strata and fossils would not be well explained, but if tsunamis caused the flood, that would explain the strata and fossils very well. The tsunamis would have brought mud and sand from the continental margins onto the land, burying animals and plants and forming strata containing fossils.

Antibiblical geologists are now stuck with the most implausible arguments for strata and fossil formation. They must imagine there were some mountains of pure sand, other mountains of pure clay and others of pure lime, that took turns eroding away so as to deposit in broad, shallow seas first, e.g. a stratum of sand that became sandstone, then a stratum of lime that became limestone, then a stratum of clay that became shale or mudstone, and repeating that process numerous times, with each stratum taking thousands of years to form, usually without mixing with any of the other mountain erosion materials. This slow sedimentation was somehow supposed to bury all of the organisms that are now fossils. They solve the problem by ignoring it and seldom mentioning it. I'll go into details later in section [1-2c].

__Get pictures of strata__

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