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Off Topic / Funday
« on: January 14, 2017, 02:55:37 pm »
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2016, 12:45:03 pm »

3/16+) FT Goal: UN of Free Morally Maturing Towns >States >Nations
with Altruistic Win-Win Cooperative Scientific Governments
with YP staying in towns a few months each, like in the Peace Corps
with weekly charity events for info sharing, charity, fun, dating, organizing
with event organizing teams

1. Plan Funday Organizing Teams
2. Make Funday Events Template
3. Evolve Events into UN of Free Morally Maturing Towns/Communities
1. Plan Funday Organizing Teams
a. Recruit Teams
- <Online
- <Drum Circles
- <*SC Dream Circle
- <colleges
- <activists
- <health fans +growers
- <home schoolers
b. Organize Teams
- ask teams >note THREATS <Govts,Corps,Crims
- ask teams >try matriarchy

2. Make Funday Events Template
a. Template: Each week seek to organize the following:
- info sharing,
- charity,
- fun,
- dating (women help men),
- organizing events,
- community organizing
b. *Website
- name Free Town Movement FUNDAY
- trademark the name
- *FUNDAY church
- *Home School page on site

3. Evolve Events into UN of Free Morally Maturing Towns/Communities
It's the duty of all self-identified morally maturing people to collaborate among themselves to have fun making society increasingly better for everyone
- Improve Community
-- See
-- See
- Constantly reduce the rate of death, injury & abuse from all causes
-- health endangerment [<water contam, GMO, tox food contam, health propaganda];
-- economic +legal abuse +war
-- crime & personal abuse
- Monitor statistics & experiment to reduce injury & increase happiness

.L2+>invite CELDF >events
.G1>See CELDF [<Erica's FB page] on making civil disobedience legal
.G1+>Find FT-interested land owners/renters & their associates
.G1+>Find all state laws for starting towns
.G1+>Teams start FREE TOWNS
.S1+>*local bank +Replace taxes with interest on loans
.S1+>*FT government & laws
Org scientifically >Monitor stats & experiment >achieve REDUCTIONS in RATE of DEATH, INJURY & Abuse from all causes
health endangerment [<water contam, GMO, tox food contam, health propaganda],
econ +legal abuse, war, crime & abuse

_invi oth'>HomSkol /ln
_xpln IL,MO+ hav no rquirmt'>notify
_xpln advan'o hom skol
_pro FTMov
_focus on Play, Reading, Writing, Typing, Math, Alternative History, Health, Frugality
_FT Events: for fun, dating (women h men), info sharing, FT voting, charity

IonyClenz, Crafts, Food, Plants, Animals, Permaculture, AK, Matching, Funday Home School, Bank, Health, Fitness, LifeCoaching, ComunyConsult, FundayEvents

qJosh/place by fitness

Drum Circles:
1. First Unitarian Ch, 110 E 3rd St, Alton, IL 3rd Sunday 6-8pm Bring chair/blanket, percussion etc, sage, bug spray

2. Creve Coeur 121 Bing Blvd, Bridgeton, MO Tuesday 6:30p
Terry at 3142553409 Bring musical instruments

3. Center For Spiritual Living, 12875 Fee Fee Road, St. Louis, Last Friday
Potluck 6:30, Drum circle 7:30pm

4. Delmar/Basin: SW corner Forest Park <Skinker >Wells Dr. >2nd left at sign
to Kennedy Forest park, Sunday by pavilion 4-6pm or dark

5. 7241 Manchester Road, Maplewood, MO, bi-weekly Thursday
Julie 3146453336

6. Tower Grove Rainbow across <Mokabe's, 3606 Arsenal St, St Louis Wed 6-10pm

7. C.A.M.P. 3026 Cherokee St, St. Louis, Fridays twice monthly 7:30-10:30
Movement Room or back yard, Suggested $5
8. SLCC Kirkwood/Meramac, 11333 Big Bend Rd, St. Louis, Fridays 12-?
or Laumire sculpture park

St. Louis: Shannon, working with senior groups, special needs children/adults, general public
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 02:24:43 pm by Admin »

Off Topic / Home Schooling
« on: January 14, 2017, 02:51:53 pm »
Home School
« on: July 02, 2016, 06:34:34 pm »


Beginners start by learning reading, vocabulary, typing, writing and math.

First use flash cards to teach simple common words. Words can be printed in lower case letter on paper or on a computer screen. Show the word for only about half a second and pronounce the word at the same time. Do not ask the child to say the words, as it may make him or her feel stressful and lose interest in the words. Kids learn to speak without anyone telling them to speak. They can learn to read the same way.

a b c d e f g - h i j k l m n - o p q r s t u - v w x y z

cat ate wait way they veil ball haul raw star hair care end dead bear bee eat key deer weird pier big hi pie sky guy gym on top role float more four our toy oil pool look hug cup blue fruit learn were bird word curl

as bees come down early from great heights into jars kept level most neatly on pianos quite real seeming they uncurl vines which xrayed yams zapped

digraphs = ch gh ph rh sh th wh
ch = t+sh: church catch pinch
gh = f: laugh cough
gh = silent: dough eight
ph = f: phone graph
rh = r: rhyme rhythm
sh = shshsh: show wash mission
th = thin breath that breathe


Read stories in books or on the computer that teach vocabulary.


Use typing programs on the computer to teach proper finger positions and memorizing keys.


With paper and pencil teach lower case printing, then upper case.

5. MATH (Next post)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 12:08:45 am by Admin »



Use flash cards with dots instead of numbers to teach math on paper or on the computer. Again, like with reading flash cards, let each card be visible for only about half a second, while you say the number. Show the cards one at a time from 1 to 20 two or three times a day for 1 week, then the cards from 11 to 30 for the second week. Then use the same cards to show addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, showing only the answer card with each operation, but say the entire operation aloud while briefly showing the card. Do addition for 30 days or so, then the other types of operations 20 days or so each. Again, don't ask the child to say the answers. Feel free to skip a day or more at any time, then resume where you left off.

Counting. (14 days & play a few minutes after each exercise)

2 or 3 times per day for Week 1 do these flash cards:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

2 or 3 times per day for Week 2 do these flash cards:
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30

Operations are Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication and Division. When doing operations, show only the flash cards for the answers, which are shown after each (=) equal sign. Say each entire operation aloud, like 1 plus 1 equals 2, but only show the answer as you're saying it, which in this case is the 2 card, and only show it for half a second.

Addition. (30 days & play a few minutes after each exercise)
2 or 3 times per day
for 3 days do:
1+0=1 1+1=2 1+2=3 1+3=4 1+4=5 1+5=6 1+6=7 1+7=8 1+8=9 1+9=10 1+10=11 1+11=12 1+12=13 1+13=14 1+14=15 1+15=16 1+16=17 1+17=18 1+18=19 1+19=20 1+20=21

for 3 days do:
2+1=3 2+2=4 2+3=5 2+4=6 2+5=7 2+6=8 2+7=9 2+8=10 2+9=11 2+10=12 2+11=13 2+12=14 2+13=15 2+14=16 2+15=17 2+16=18 2+17=19 2+18=20 2+19=21 2+20=22

for 3 days do:
3+1=4 3+2=5 3+3=6 3+4=7 3+5=8 3+6=9 3+7=10 3+8=11 3+9=12 3+10=13 3+11=14 3+12=15 3+13=16 3+14=17 3+15=18 3+16=19 3+17=20 3+18=21 3+19=22 3+20=23

for 3 days do:
4+1=5 4+2=6 4+3=7 4+4=8 4+5=9 4+6=0 4+7=11 4+8=12 4+9=13 4+10=14 4+11=15 4+12=16 4+13=17 4+14=18 4+15=19 4+16=20 4+17=21 4+18=22 4+19=23 4+20=24
for 3 days do:
5+1=6 5+2=7 5+3=8 5+4=9 5+5=10 5+6=11 5+7=12 5+8=13 5+9=14 5+10=15 5+11=16 5+12=17
5+13=18 5+14=19 5+15=20 5+16=21 5+17=22 5+18=23 5+19=24 5+20=25

for 3 days do:
6+1=7 6+2=8 6+3=9 6+4=10 6+5=11 6+6=12 6+7=13 6+8=14 6+9=15 6+10=16 6+11=17 6+12=18
6+13=19 6+14=20 6+15=21 6+16=22 6+17=23 6+18=24 6+19=25 6+20=26

for 3 days do:
7+1=8 7+2=9 7+3=10 7+4=11 7+5=12 7+6=13 7+7=14 7+8=15 7+9=16 7+10=17 7+11=18 7+12=19 7+13=20 7+14=21 7+15=22 7+16=23 7+17=24 7+18=25 7+19=26 7+20=27

for 3 days do:
8+1=9 8+2=10 8+3=11 8+4=12 8+5=13 8+6=14 8+7=15 8+8=16 8+9=17 8+10=18 8+11=19 8+12=20 8+13=21 8+14=22 8+15=23 8+16=24 8+17=25 8+18=26 8+19=27 8+20=28

for 3 days do:
9+1=10 9+2=11 9+3=12 9+4=13 9+5=14 9+6=15 9+7=16 9+8=17 9+9=18 9+10=19 9+11=20 9+12=21 9+13=22 9+14=23 9+15=24 9+16=25 9+17=26 9+18=27 9+19=28 9+20=29

for 3 days do:
10+1=11 10+2=12 10+3=13 10+4=14 10+5=15 10+6=16 10+7=17 10+8=18 10+9=19 10+10=20 10+11=21 10+12=22 10+13=23 10+14=24 10+15=25 10+16=26 10+17=27 10+18=28 10+19=29 10+20=30

Subtraction. (20 days & play a few minutes after each exercise)
2 or 3 times per day
for 2 days do:
1-1=0 2-1=1 3-1=2 4-1=3 5-1=4 6-1=5 7-1=6 8-1=7 9-1=8 10-1=9 11-1=10 12-1=11
13-1=12 14-1=13 15-1=14 16-1=15 17-1=16 18-1=17 19-1=18 20-1=19

for 2 days do:
2-2=0 3-2=1 4-2=2 5-2=3 6-2=4 7-2=5 8-2=6 9-2=7 10-2=8 11-2=9 12-2=10 13-2=11
14-2=12 15-2=13 16-2=14 17-2=15 18-2=16 19-2=17 20-2=18 21-2=19

for 2 days do:
3-3=0 4-3=1 5-3=2 6-3=3 7-3=4 8-3=5 9-3=6 10-3=7 11-3=8 12-3=9 13-3=10 14-3=11
15-3=12 16-3=13 17-3=14 18-3=15 19-3=16 20-3=17 21-3=18 22-3=19

for 2 days do:
4-4=0 5-4=1 6-4=2 7-4=3 8-4=4 9-4=5 10-4=6 11-4=7 12-4=8 13-4=9 14-4=10 15-4=11
16-4=12 17-4=13 18-4=14 19-4=15 20-4=16 21-4=17 22-4=18 23-4=19

for 2 days do:
5-5=0 6-5=1 7-5=2 8-5=3 9-5=4 10-5=5 11-5=6 12-5=7 13-5=8 14-5=9 15-5=10 16-5=11
17-5=12 18-5=13 19-5=14 20-5=15 21-5=16 22-5=17 23-5=18 24-5=19

for 2 days do:
6-6=0 7-6=1 8-6=2 9-6=3 10-6=4 11-6=5 12-6=6 13-6=7 14-6=8 15-6=9 16-6=10 17-6=11
18-6=12 19-6=13 20-6=14 21-6=15 22-6=16 23-6=17 24-6=18 25-6=19

for 2 days do:
7-7=0 8-7=1 9-7=2 10-7=3 11-7=4 12-7=5 13-7=6 14-7=7 15-7=8 16-7=9 17-7=10 18-7=11
19-7=12 20-7=13 21-7=14 22-7=15 23-7=16 24-7=17 25-7=18 26-7=19

for 2 days do:
8-8=0 9-8=1 10-8=2 11-8=3 12-8=4 13-8=5 14-8=6 15-8=7 16-8=8 17-8=9 18-8=10 19-8=11
20-8=12 21-8=13 22-8=14 23-8=15 24-8=16 25-8=17 26-8=18 27-8=19

for 2 days do:
9-9=0 10-9=1 11-9=2 12-9=3 13-9=4 14-9=5 15-9=6 16-9=7 17-9=8 18-9=9 19-9=10
20-9=11 21-9=12 22-9=13 23-9=14 24-9=15 25-9=16 26-9=17 27-9=18 28-9=19

for 2 days do:
10-10=0 11-10=1 12-10=2 13-10=3 14-10=4 15-10=5 16-10=6 17-10=7 18-10=8 19-10=9
20-10=10 21-10=11 22-10=12 23-10=13 24-10=14 25-10=15 26-10=16 27-10=17 28-10=18 29-10=19

Multiplication. (20 days & play a few minutes after each exercise)
2 or 3 times per day
for 2 days do:
1x0=0 1x1=1 1x2=2 1x3=3 1x4=4 1x5=5 1x6=6 1x7=7 1x8=8 1x9=9 1x10=10 1x11=11 1x12=12 1x13=13 1x14=14 1x15=15 1x16=16 1x17=17 1x18=18 1x19=19 1x20=20

for 3 days do:
2x1=2 2x2=4 2x3=6 2x4=8 2x5=10 2x6=12 2x7=14 2x8=16 2x9=18 2x10=20 2x11=22 2x12=24
2x13=26 2x14=28 2x15=30 2x16=32 2x17=34 2x18=36 2x19=38 2x20=40

for 3 days do:
3x1=3 3x2=6 3x3=9 3x4=12 3x5=15 3x6=18 3x7=21 3x8=24 3x9=27 3x10=30 3x11=33 3x12=36
3x13=39 3x14=42 3x15=45 3x16=48 3x17=51 3x18=54 3x19=57 3x20=60

for 3 days do:
4x1=4 4x2=8 4x3=12 4x4=16 4x5=20 4x6=24 4x7=28 4x8=32 4x9=36 4x10=40 4x11=44 4x12=48 4x13=52 4x14=56 4x15=60 4x16=64 4x17=68 4x18=72 4x19=76 4x20=80

for 3 days do:
5x1=5 5x2=10 5x3=15 5x4=20 5x5=25 5x6=30 5x7=35 5x8=40 5x9=45 5x10=50 5x11=55
5x12=60 5x13=65 5x14=70 5x15=75 5x16=80 5x17=85 5x18=90 5x19=95 5x20=100

for 3 days do:
6x1=6 6x2=12 6x3=18 6x4=24 6x5=30 6x6=36 6x7=42 6x8=48 6x9=54 6x10=60 6x11=66
6x12=72 6x13=78 6x14=84 6x15=90 6x16=96
7x1=7 7x2=14 7x3=21 7x4=28 7x5=35 7x6=42 7x7=49 7x8=56 7x9=63 7x10=70 7x11=77
7x12=84 7x13=91 7x14=98

for 3 days do:
8x1=8 8x2=16 8x3=24 8x4=32 8x5=40 8x6=48 8x7=56 8x8=64 8x9=72 8x10=80 8x11=88
9x1=9 9x2=18 9x3=27 9x4=36 9x5=45 9x6=54 9x7=63 9x8=72 9x9=81 9x10=90 9x11=99
10x1=10 10x2=20 10x3=30 10x4=40 10x5=50 10x6=60 10x7=70 10x8=80 10x9=90 10x10=100

Division. (20 days & play a few minutes after each exercise)
2 or 3 times per day
for 2 days do:
0/1=0 1/1=1 2/1=2 3/1=3 4/1=4 5/1=5 6/1=6 7/1=7 8/1=8 9/1=9 10/1=10 11/1=11 12/1=12
13/1=13 14/1=14 15/1=15 16/1=16 17/1=17 18/1=18 19/1=19 20/1=20

for 2 days do:
2/2=1 4/2=2 6/2=3 8/2=4 10/2=5 12/2=6 14/2=7 16/2=8 18/2=9 20/2=10 22/2=11 24/2=12
26/2=13 28/2=14 30/2=15 32/2=16 34/2=17 36/2=18 38/2=19 40/2=20

for 2 days do:
3/3=1 6/3=2 9/3=3 12/3=4 15/3=5 18/3=6 21/3=7 24/3=8 27/3=9 30/3=10 33/3=11 36/3=12
39/3=13 42/3=14 45/3=15 48/3=16 51/3=17 54/3=18 57/3=19 60/3=20

for 2 days do:
4/4=1 8/4=2 12/4=3 16/4=4 20/4=5 24/4=6 28/4=7 32/4=8 36/4=9 40/4=10 44/4=11 48/4=12 52/4=13 56/4=14 60/4=15 64/4=16 68/4=17 72/4=18 76/4=19 80/4=20

for 2 days do:
5/5=1 10/5=2 15/5=3 20/5=4 25/5=5 30/5=6 35/5=7 40/5=8 45/5=9 50/5=10 55/5=11
60/5=12 65/5=13 70/5=14 75/5=15 80/5=16 85/5=17 90/5=18 95/5=19 100/5=20

for 2 days do:
6/6=1 12/6=2 18/6=3 24/6=4 30/6=5 36/6=6 42/6=7 48/6=8 54/6=9 60/6=10 66/6=11
72/6=12 78/6=13 84/6=14 90/6=15 96/6=16 102/6=17 108/6=18 114/6=19 120/6=20

for 2 days do:
7/7=1 14/7=2 21/7=3 28/7=4 35/7=5 42/7=6 49/7=7 56/7=8 63/7=9 70/7=10 77/7=11
84/7=12 91/7=13 98/7=14 105/7=15 112/7=16 119/7=17 126/7=18 133/7=19 140/7=20

for 2 days do:
8/8=1 16/8=2 24/8=3 32/8=4 40/8=5 48/8=6 56/8=7 64/8=8 72/8=9 80/8=10 88/8=11
96/8=12 104/8=13 112/8=14 120/8=15 128/8=16 136/8=17 144/8=18 152/8=19 160/8=20

for 2 days do:
9/9=1 18/9=2 27/9=3 36/9=4 45/9=5 54/9=6 63/9=7 72/9=8 81/9=9 90/9=10 99/9=11
108/9=12 117/9=13 126/9=14 135/9=15 144/9=16 153/9=17 162/9=18 171/9=19 180/9=20

for 2 days do:
10/10=1 20/10=2 30/10=3 40/10=4 50/10=5 60/10=6 70/10=7 80/10=8 90/10=9 100/10=10
110/10=11 120/10=12 130/10=13 140/10=14 150/10=15 160/10=16 170/10=17 180/10=18
190/10=19 200/10=20

Math Games.

Game 1
Ask the child if they want you to show them addition, subtraction, multiplication, or division. Then ask which numbers they want you to do the operation on. Say: Do you want to see the operation with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10?

(to be continued)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 01:21:44 pm by Admin »

XX 1st Draft / Re: [1-0] A Millennium of Global Cataclysms 4-5k BP
« on: January 09, 2017, 11:14:48 am »

An excellent amateur scientist friend, Charles Chandler, with detailed analysis determined that the Sun and planets must have originated about 380 million years ago. He found that the star formation process is primarily electrical, as explained in his Astrophysics and Geophysics papers at . However, it's also possible that Earth originated elsewhere and was captured by the Sun later. In his model a planet can form either as a smaller bead of plasma next to a larger bead or two of stars, or it can form from the decay of a star. So, if the Earth and other planets were formed as planets with the Sun, they'd all be about 380 million years old. If they formed as stars and decayed and were captured by the Sun, they could be much older than the Sun. Many Bible students think the Earth and the entire universe were made by God about 6,000 years ago. But some think it was only the biosphere that originated at that time, based on certain translations. The surface features of the Earth appear to have formed between 4 and 5 thousand years ago. The evidence will be discussed in section [1-2c]. Section [1-5] will cover Earth's Origin.
[CC said: What is the reason for going with a "Young Earth" chronology?
LK: The Earth may or may not be old; its surface seems to be young. Cataclysms seem to have occurred around 4,350 years ago, which reshaped the top two miles of the continents' sedimentary strata. The cataclysm/s involved meteor impacts, land movements & tsunamis.]
=========================Postby Lloyd » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:36 pm
- Young Earth vs Old Earth. Charles found a webpage that has a lot of arguments for Old Earth and against Young Earth. It's here:
- Of course, those of us who consider only the surface of the Earth to be young, rather than the entire Earth, aren't bothered by some of the evidence. ...
LK: What is the best physical evidence of Catastrophism?
a. Berthault's findings on sedimentation?
b. interbedding of lava and sedimentary rock in Washington etc?
c. Fisher's findings of the large crater on the east side of Africa?
- Can you name other evidence here that you think should be discussed?
GW: Astroblemes associated with every major stratum, the strata themeselves, the absence of record for the 100-millions of years hiatuses
LK: Where are the main gaps in Catastrophism theory?
GW: Gaps in Catastrophic concepts. Our current epoch of relative geologic calm, cyclical seasons and climate were prescribed/predicted at the end of the flood event. Until people begin to recognize that our present case is a result and recovery from the cataclysm of old, the only thing that will convince them is the next global catastrophe. Perhaps even for some this is the lure of Anthropogenic Global Warming and its attendant catastrophes. So the "gap" is the the modern cultural mind. Along with this, the standard model indoctrination of radiometric dating, taught without reference or regard for the assumptions on which it is built, is a roadblock for many. "Hasn't science proven the world is 4.5 billions years old?" it will be commonly quipped.
LK: What are promising ways to get the theory of Catastrophism widely accepted?
- What audiences might be best targeted?
- Christians; Muslims; Jews; homeschool families; libertarians; Republicans; conservatives; private schools; specific places in social media; online conferences; online videos ...?
GW: Catastrophism isn't a theory, or even a variety of theories, it is a paradigm. When you view the world around you, you see processes at work, weather, the water cycle, mountains uplifting, volcanism, the biosphere with its myriad varieties and variations. Does this world appear to you as stable, unchanging [or invisibly slowly changing], predictably cyclical? If so, then the pardigm of Uniformitarianism suits you well, and you readily learn to interpret the physical evidence in the framework of gradualism. Since the time of Lyell, Hutton, and Darwin, the social indoctrination in this perspective has been facilitated by the naturalistic approach of scientism which, by its appropriate self-limitation to the experimental study of repeatable processes has led many to the conclusion that all of the universe of space, time and matter, is predictable and formulaic. It is possible that this indoctrination is indelible [for some?]; there is a comfort to this boxing up of the cosmos, that makes it virtually impossible to break free to explore other options.
- As open-minded to the evidence as most scientists claim to be, they generally fail to recognize that their worldview is enslaved to the modern materialistic and deterministic paradigm. I was trained in this perspective, and so it took me a number of years to be able to see the world as I do today. We are in a period of relatively unremarkable stability, punctuated however by occasional (and increasing, imo) catastrophic events. The physical record of the past Is full of evidence of widespread and repeated flood deposition, seismic activity, meteor impacts, and the like. These episodes are separated by imagined hiatal periods in which supposed long epochs of mountain building and subsequent erosion leave the earth's surface relatively flat. Without these alleged hiatuses, the record is one of cataclysm and catastrophe. In the "last days" we are told catastrophism will be mocked according to the biblical record (2 Peter). It is possible we are living in a representative social climate. People will continue to believe what they want to believe, until that belief system no longer suits them ... generations later perhaps history will record our time as the Era of Doubt, despite our ever increasing awareness of large-scale catastrophic processes.
=========================Postby Lloyd » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:21 am
... If you readers are interested, please answer a few questions here to help decide which topics to discuss first and on what date/s and time/s.
... Previous Answers
Here are 14 members' answers to these recent questions.
Was there a Global Flood a few thousand years ago? 14 say probably
Was there other global cataclysm a few thousand years ago? 14 say probably
Was there more than one global cataclysm in the past 20,000 years? 13 say probably
Are some ancient myths good evidence for ancient global cataclysm? 14 say probably
Which, if any, planets probably have had drastic changes in their orbits in the past 20,000 years? 12 named one or more planets
Do you know of very good evidence for your ideas about ancient cataclysm? 14 say yes
Are you willing to change your mind if you learn of better alternative evidence? 14 say yes
Are you interested in friendly collaborative discussion about catastrophism online (preferably on an Etherpad)? 12 say yes
- Chronology: Here's another version of an updated chronology that I posted on the Earth History thread.
*(k means thousand years ago)
1. (...k) Solar System formation string from imploding nebular filament
2. (15k) Supercontinent formation from soft DiMoon collision
2a. Biosphere proliferation in ideal climate
2b. Advancement of Civilization
3. (12k) Saturn Flare from impact in Kuyper belt
4. (6k) Asteroid Belt formation from Aster collision
5. (5k) Saturn System encounter with Jupiter
5a. Saturn Subplanets dispersal
6. (4.4k) Asteroid Belt crossing (5 months)
6a. Asteroids bombardment of Earth, Moon & Mars
6b. Rapid Continental sliding
6c. Inner and outer Mountain Ranges formation
6d. Vulcanism in outer mountain ranges
6e. Flood Basalts in India, Siberia & Washington
6f. Great Flood tsunamis (5 months)
7. (4.4k) Ice Age (few hundred years)
8. (4.3k) Ancient Ice Age Map making
8a. Civilization rebuilding
9a. (4.2k) Scablands flooding
9b. Grand Canyon formation by lakes draining
- The Letter to Shock Dynamics (
- The Site's Main Points from "When did it happen?"
... major phase of uplift in the Pliocene-Pleistocene occurred over a short time primarily due to compression by Shock Dynamics ca. 9,500 B.C.
- 1. Before the Flood, Earth's atmosphere was dense, so many creatures grew to gigantic sizes
- 2. Dinosaurs occupied most of the protocontinent while people and other animals lived in Mesopotamia or East Antarctica
- 4. There was much sand and mud around the edges of the protocontinent and East Antarctica
- 3. Then a long swarm of meteorites of all sizes struck the Moon and Earth for forty days, causing rain and loss of much atmosphere
- 5. During the Flood tsunamis deposited sediment from the continental shelf onto the protocontinent
- 6. As atmospheric pressure fell much calcium carbonate precipitated from the sea water, forming thick sedimentary rock with fossils
- 7. "Paleozoic" creatures living near sea shores were buried first.
- 8. "Mesozoic" creatures that could escape inland were buried second.
- 10. Survivors of the Flood landed in Mesopotamia and spread out on the flat protocontinent
- 11. There were only 360 days in a year before the Flood.
- 9. After the Flood the Chicxulub meteorite hit Mexico, spreading iridium and shocked quartz over the protocontinent
- 12. A giant meteorite impact north of what is now Madagascar divided the protocontinent into the continents and islands
- 13. It raised all the mountain chains, and initiated global volcanism
- 14. "Cenozoic" large mammals & others were buried and fossilized
- 15. Much of the continental crust moved away from the equator and toward the poles
- 16. Atmospheric moisture and volcanic and impact dust led to cooling and extensive rain and snow fall, glaciation
- 17. Civilization was rebuilt such as along the newly formed Nile River
- 18. Meteor impacts produced the dust on the Moon
- My Comments. I found Chapman's Glacial Cataclysm at: Do you know if that's the same? It seemed like it was attributing a lot of evidence for glaciation to the Great Flood or something. Why do you suggest that the cataclysms occurred 11,500 BP and earlier? It seems that the Flood occurred almost 4,400 BP.
- In listing your points, I rearranged a couple of items. I put 4 before 3 because 4 refers to the supercontinent situation before 3's meteor swarm arrived. And I put 9 after 10 and 11, because Chixulub occurred after the Great Flood in your model.
- 1. Regarding #1, it may be worthwhile to explain that a dense atmosphere would have made dinosaurs and other megafauna much more buoyant, so their muscles would have been strong enough to move them around, and pterodachtyls would have been able to stand on their pencil-thin legs.
- 2. Human footprints and fossils in dinosaur strata in the U.S. Southwest seem to indicate that humans lived among dinosaurs to some extent.
- 4. I think shale makes up over 50% of sedimentary strata, sandstone 25% and limestone the rest. According to Noah’s Flood: The Key to Correct Interpretation of Earth History (by Baumgardner & others) at tsunamis 2,500 m high caused by tidal pulses could have produced enough cavitation along continental margins to produce all of the sediments needed. It suggests that the 5 megasequences of rock strata could have been deposited during monthly tidal pulses between the 6 unconformities bordering the megasequences. Snelling, on the other hand, seems to agree with your idea of sand and mud coming up from the seafloor via smaller tsunamis, I guess. But I presume both processes would have been involved.
- 3. Gordon says the Hebrew word, "matar", probably meant "meteors" and they occurred during the entire 5 months of the Great Flood. This reminded me of the part of the Saturn Theory that says Earth was a satellite of Saturn and it drifted away from Saturn and then crossed the Asteroid belt before arriving at its present orbit. I thought maybe the 5 month meteor bombardment may have occurred when Earth crossed the Asteroid belt. I thought that might be when the Ice Age occurred, when Earth moved from the Asteroid belt to within the orbit of Mars. Before that its atmosphere may have been thick enough to prevent much cooling. However, it looks like the Ice Age had to occur some time after the Great Flood, as you say. There seems to be something to the Saturn Theory, because the ancients said Saturn was the god at the north pole, the pole star, and that Saturn was the first Sun etc.
- 5. seems probable re sedimentation; plus my comments on #4.
- 6. seems probable re lime from seawater; I didn't know that, but Gordon may have been aware of that.
- 7&8. seem probable re sequence of "Paleozoic" & "Mesozoic" creatures' burials.
- 10. seems possible re Survivors landing in Mesopotamia. Saturn Theory says a lot of phenomena in ancient myths were celestial events, rather than terrestrial. There were plasma phenomena seen in the sky that looked like people and animals etc. So it's hard to tell if Noah's ark was celestial or also terrestrial.
- 11. seems possible re 360 days in a year before the Flood. That doesn't seem important as yet, but it could be.
- 9. seems possible re Chicxulub meteorite hitting after the Flood. I'd like to know more of your evidence for that.
- 12. seems very probable re SD impact and rapid continental drift. Maybe you need a video to address the issue of why the popular Creationist theory of rapid CD is inferior to the SD model. I guess you might have to suppress your idea of the Great Flood occurring before 11,500 BP in order to get Creationists to consider your model.
- 13. seems probable re SD causing mountain uplift and volcanism, but I thought that all occurred during the Great Flood, because the sediments would have been soft, so the strata could fold without breaking, as seen in many mountain strata. If the mountain uplift happened long after the Great Flood, would the strata still have been soft? Or do you think the strata were softened by heating during the SD event? If so, do you have much evidence for that? I bet Gordon would know something about that.
- 14. seems plausible re "Cenozoic" animals fossilized during the SD event in crumbly strata.
- 15. seems probable re SD pushing some continents toward the poles.
- 16. seems probable re evaporation & glaciation. Gordon says secondary erosion and sedimentation occurred after mountain uplift.
- 17. seems probable re civilization rebuilding along the Nile etc, but much later, i.e. ca. 4,300 BP.
- 18. seems probable re meteor impacts making the dust on the Moon.
- Regarding Ice Age Mammals. I think you should briefly explain how you differ from Oard. He seems to say that the Arctic Ocean kept the nearby surrounding land warm for a few centuries, during which the animals got trapped there as the climate gradually got colder, whereas you seem to say that all of the lands were warmer until the SD event, which moved some of the land north into freezing conditions, and the animals succumbed right away instead of gradually.
- You said, "If we use the elephant life-cycle as a model, a 13 year doubling rate (starting with 2 mammoths) would produce a population at least as large as that which was buried." Did you show the figures anywhere? I think it's worth showing them. 300 years / 13 years/generation = 23 generations. 2^23 > 8 million.
- Regarding Tektites. You call it the largest strewnfield (covering the Indian Ocean to Australia), but doesn't that refer to the present size of it? When the tektites fell (before India, Southeast Asia, Australia etc moved away from Africa), the field would have been much smaller. Shouldn't you mention that?
- The Mechanism of Impacts. Here are some of Charles' discussions on impacts etc: He says impacts are usually thermonuclear explosions. He did do a paper on meteoric air bursts at He and Gordon consider 26 hours way too short a time for the continents to have moved to near their present locations. What convinced you that the continents took only 26 hours to complete their journeys, instead of a longer period of time? It makes sense to me because of the great reduction in friction that you explain. Actually, there may have been even less friction, since the Moho layer is likely plasma, so the movements would have been like maglev with the continents levitating on the Moho. One of Charles' papers explains why the Moho is likely plasma, only about a meter thick.
- Your model says the Shock Dynamics meteor came in at about a 30 degree angle (going from west to east over Africa and landing north of Madagascar). Normally, one would think that the momentum would be transferred only in the forward direction to the pieces that became India, southeast Asia, Australia and New Zealand. But Charles' model explains why the momentum would be transferred in all horizontal directions. It's because the impact produced a thermonuclear explosion. He explains that all that's needed for such an explosion is extreme heat and extreme pressure, both of which a fast moving meteor provides. So I think readers may be able to understand that better (momentum transferred west toward Africa and the Americas as well as to the north and east) if it's compared to throwing a hand grenade or other kind of bomb.
- Supercontinent Breakup. I think it would help if your model could explain why the Americas broke away from Africa and Europe, instead of at least Africa moving westward as well. I think Gordon suspects that a tidal force from another large body weakened the supercontinent along that rift line. Charles thinks the supercontinent was possibly torn off of the Moon long ago, because of the similarity in rock composition between the supercontinent and the Moon. So I thought maybe ocean water may have gotten trapped under the supercontinent, which could have weakened the crust in a way similar to Walter Brown's Hydroplate model. I admit, however, that it doesn't seem probable that much water should have gotten trapped, since a ball shape meeting another ball shape should move almost all fluids to the side. Eurasia didn't break apart, so why did Africa and the Americas? What would most likely have weakened the crust there between them?
=========================Postby Lloyd » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:10 am
I'm working on a sort of paper on this at
CC on Planets (Earth Features since Formation):
CC on Electric Orbits (Titius-Bode Law):
Geochronology, Part 1 (Mythic Record):
Geochronology, Part 2 (CC on Supercontinent):
Geochronology, Part 3 (Great Flood):
Geochronology, Part 4 (Post Flood Catastrophes):
Geochronology, Part 5 (Continental Drift & Ice Age):
- The Geochronology Part 4 includes major events like carving the Grand Canyon, the Floods in Washington and Idaho etc, the flooding of the Mediterranean Sea, which was almost a dry basin before flooding, and the flooding of the Black Sea. I suppose these actually likely occurred after the Continental Drift event some centuries after the Great Flood. The Mediterranean and Black Seas floods must have been terrifying, since both were pretty deep, probably a mile or so. Right?
LK: Do you think the Earth existed before the time the Bible says it was created?
- Do you consider Earth to be just 6,000 or 7,000 years old, as per the popular Bible interpretation?
- Or do you think the supercontinent formed before that?
- How do you think the supercontinent formed on the Earth? Have you read Charles' theory?
GW: I think it is possible that the earth's crust and atmosphere were the topics of Genesis 1 and 2, so there is a reasonable option that the primordial planet and other bodies were created prior to that time by immeasurable years.

XX 1st Draft / 0 = [1-9] References
« on: January 07, 2017, 08:33:29 pm »

1 Sup 2a Flood b Bom c Rock d Myth e Civ 3 Break 4 Ice Age 5 Earth 6 Saturn 7 Venus 8 Mars

(2b. Hi Chrales. I'm hoping to write a paper with Mike Fischer for an online geology journal about Catastrophism. Would you be available maybe once a week to briefly answer questions I may have for the paper?
- Also, GaryN keeps bringing up the EU idea that craters etc were formed by megalightning rather than by impacts. I know that small bodies lose a lot of surface to frictional "sublimation" and the resistance of the mass of the air slows their descent down to 300 or more km/hr, so they don't make craters. But I presume that large bodies would only lose a small percentage of surface mass in the atmosphere and also lose only a small percentage of their momenta. I think the biggest meteorite ever found was 10 or 20 tons or so. GaryN thinks bodies of any size would either (1) burn up in the atmosphere, or (2) be pulverized by detonation in the air, including by electric discharge from the ground, I think, or (3) be repelled by Earth's positive charge being the same as the intruder. I know a little about how to calculate the momentum of a body. I don't know how to calculate how much opposing momentum there would be from electrical repulsion or from the resistance of the air etc. Have you covered this anywhere? If so, can you find a link for me? Here's where I partially replied to GaryN:
Charles Chandler)

_0) - Radiometric Dating: Problems with the Assumptions
_0) - [dating methods] __REFERENCE
This is a piece by Ginenthal which is full of references
_0) - Faulty Dating Methods
_0) = The Origin of Earth's Radioactivity
_0) = CC/Fusion:
_0) Arguments against young Earth:
_0) Chronology, MF:
_0) Chronology, LK:
_0) Chronology, JC?:
_0) Chronology, B:
_0) Dating Methods:
_0) Ice Core Dating:
_0) Lava Dating Error:
_0) Radiometric Dating Errors:
_1) Supercontinent, CC:
_1) Map of Precambrian strata:
_2a) Flood, Baumgardner:
_2a) Flood Video:
_2a) China Flood Date:
- Nuwa and Fuxi:
_2a) Flood, WB:
_2a) - Catastrophism
_2b) Crater List:
_2b) SD Impact:
_2b) Impacts, CC:
_2b) Air bursts, CC:
_2b) - That Giant Asteroid Wasn’t the Only Thing That Killed the Dinosaurs (So Did Vulcanism [and the unmentionable Great Flood])
_2b) - 4.1 Billion Year Old Australian Zircon Contains Graphite of Biological Origin
_2c) Megasequences
- St Peter Sandstone
- Sauk Sandstone
- Six Megasequences
- Transcontinental Rock Layers
- Cambrian Tapeats Sandstone
Jurassic Morrison Formation
- Transcontinental Rock Layers
_2c) - Walter Brown's Hydroplate Theory at
- The Hydroplate theory seems largely unrealistic, but these sections are very impressive evidence for catastrophism:
= Liquefaction: The Origin of Strata and Layered Fossils
_2c) = The Origin of Limestone
= Frozen Mammoths
_2c) - Opposition
_2c) - Alberta fossil site hints to ‘epic disaster’ for group of dinosaurs (the bone bed is merely one section of a much bigger find that stretches across two to three kilometres and may contain the remains of an entire herd of centrosaurs wiped out in one fell swoop ... tens of thousands of individuals dying at once [the Great Flood!])
_2c) Mammoths:
_2c) Cross stratification:
_2c) - Kame:
- Esker:
- Drumlin:,
- Fluting:
- Striations:
- Potholes:
- Erratics:
- Rimmed Plateaus, Hummocky:
- Potholes:
_2c) Coal:
_2c) Dinosaur & Human Tracks:
_2c) Grand Canyon sandstone:
_2c) Kola Borehole:
_2c) Flood Deposits:
_2c) KT Boundary:
_2c) Seafloor Striping:
_2c) EM:
_2c) Mammoths Video:
_2c) Mammoths, CG:
_2c) Mammoths:
_2c) Arctic Carnage:
_2d) SIS C&C Search:[]=-1
_2d) Flood Legends:
_2e) Giants:
_2e) Ebook:
_3) Antarctica:
_3) - Mike Fisher's Shock Dynamics at
_3) - World’s Largest Canyon System May Lie under Antarctic Ice Sheet
I guess this Antarctic canyon, like the Grand Canyon, was formed after the flood too. Right?
_3) - Ancient Supereruptions in Idaho's Snake River Plain
_3) - 12 Supereruptions Pockmark Path of Yellowstone Hotspot
I think your view is that these eruptions occurred in the latter stages of the flood, whereas Fischer thinks they occurred along with rapid continental drift a few hundred years after the flood. Can you name some evidence for your view?
_3) - Antarctic Canyon: It's unclear whether the valley was carved or is a rift... I lean toward the rift. If carved, it would be a flood remnant, perhaps mid to late flood; as a rift it may have occurred early in the flood as a result of the continental splitting event.
_3) - Yellowstone is a hotspot under a [once] drifting continent, analogous in some ways to the Hawaiian chain hotspot in the middle of the Pacific. As the continent drifted over it, it may have fueled the Columbia plateau eruptions of Washington, then the Idahoan Craters of the Moon, and now residing under the Yellowstone plateau. The continental boundary volcanics and Island arcs are clearly post-flood in my model, in contrast to the hotspots which are/may be a subset of the "opening" events of the flood. So I agree with Fischer's connection of the hotspot with drift, but disagree with his timeline, as always.
_3) - Origin of Earth's Oldest Crystals: zircon crystals -- are likely to have formed in the craters left by violent asteroid impacts
_3) _4) Continental Drift & Ice Age:
_4) - Geologists Find Evidence of Ancient Megatsunami in Cape Verde Islands
I haven't read that, but I'm guessing this megatsunami was a post-flood event and that the Great Flood tsunamis were bigger. Do you agree?
_4) - Cape Verde megatsunami: I'm not sure I trust some of the scholarship on this article, however the dating, which the writer referred to as "cutting edge"[??] certainly suggests that the seismicity and volcanism associated with this event were late or post flood. They refer to the volcanic region as recent, a common term for volcanic ranges around the world, which I place late/post flood. The dating method was counting Helium-3, produced by cosmic rays on the exposed rock surface... I don't believe such a method can accurately age any rock without applying other assumptions; the date they published was an average of dates over a 50,000+ yr range.
_4) - Reef Ecosystem Discovered in the Amazon
_4) - Ancient Peruvian Mystery Solved From Space - spiraling, rock-lined holes, known as puquios - a series of extraordinarily advanced underground aqueducts
1 - Some fairy tales may be 6000 years old
_4) - Slaughter at the bridge: Uncovering a colossal Bronze Age battle
_4) - Why did Tutankhamun Have a Dagger Made From a Meteorite? [from Late Heavy Bombardment?]
_4) - Humans may have taken different path into Americas than thought
_4) = The Origin of the Grand Canyon
_4) Chapman's Glacial Cataclysm:
_4) Post Flood Catastrophes:
_4) Nanodiamond-Rich Layer:
_4) Elongated Skulls:
_4) Ramesses Hair:
_4) YD:
_4) Neolithic People:
_4) Post-Flood:
_4) Post-Flood Year:
_4) Archaeological Find Challenges Standard Geology:
_4) Religion:
_4) Ice Age:
_4) Ice Age, MO:
_4) Genographics:
_5) Lunar Mares:
_5) - Interstellar Iron Found on Moon’s Surface: Confirmation of Supernovae in Solar Neighborhood
_5) - Earth Pelted with Ashes from Nearby Supernova Explosions
_5) Astrophysics/Geophysics:
_5) Planets, CC:
_5) Orbits, CC:
_6) Saturn System Breakup:
_8) - Asteroid Impacts May Have Created Mars' Ancient Oceans

XX 1st Draft / X = [1-4] The Ice Age
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:41:47 pm »
[1-4] The Ice Age
=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:58 am
... Ice Age. I'm trying to get more discussion on this topic, so I brought it up on another forum too at One of the members there provided a link to a good article on the Arctic animals. It's The extinction of the woolly mammoth: was it a quick freeze? I also emailed ...
- That article answers almost all of my questions, except for the problem of why the frozen animals' cells didn't burst. I don't know how certain it is that their cells didn't burst, but supposedly when animals' bodies freeze normally, their cells do burst. And it's only by flash freezing them to extremely cold temperatures that can prevent the cells from bursting. And besides unburst cells, there's said to be other evidence of flash freezing, namely the claims that streams were found in Siberia I think with fish frozen in them in medium level depths and, more importantly, one stream with cattle swimming in it with their heads above the ice and their bodies in swimming position.
- Oard's Solution. The article has a novel but very plausible solution. It agrees that the Arctic animals migrated to the Arctic after the Great Flood. The Arctic Ocean remained warm for a few centuries and the land area around it was also warm in winter and summer, I guess kind of like around the Mediterranean Sea. Glaciation started in eastern Canada and Greenland and gradually spread to central Canada and the Arctic. Many of the animals got trapped there around the Arctic Ocean. Wind-blown loess and ice killed them and buried them, some while still standing or kneeling. Dust storms apparently can bury large objects sometimes. I just found an update of Oard's paper here:
- Remaining Doubts. I'm still not completely satisfied, as there still seems to be a strong possibility that the freezing was extremely sudden and bitter, below -150 F, and it seems questionable that the Arctic could provide enough vegetation in the winters for so many animals, and at least some of the animals in eastern Siberia were hit by shrapnel from meteor air bursts. A bison that was hit by micrometeorites appeared to continue living after being hit, since the bone [or horn?] started to grow back over the punctures.

--------------------Postby johnm33 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:19 am
This is a piece by Ginenthal which is full of references

LK: Is it obvious that the Grand Canyon formed from dam breaks of the ancient lakes that previously existed north and east of the canyon?
- Do you know how to calculate how soft the ground had to be in order for the canyon to erode so quickly and deeply?
- And do you know how to calculate how young the sediments had to be in order to be that soft?
GW: The Grand Canyon is the popular go to for both catastrophists and uniformitarians, so is a good place to discuss the mechanisms of sedimentation. I refer folks to Guy Berthault's sedimentology for the understanding of how multiple deep sedimentary layers are formed simultaneously by a moving current. The depositing of the sediments and subsequent draining of the rising plateau may have happened within weeks of each other, so the ground would have been adequately soft and immeasurably "young". As to the cementation process in rock formation, there is no reason to require long ages for sediment to become rock. We can do it in hours for a concrete sidewalk. How can we know this could happen in the past? The evidence is before our very eyes: The cement we use comes from the rock formations we're taking into evidence -- the rocks are full of these cementers, which we quarry out and grind up for our use. There is no mystery, these rock formations may take months, even years to fully cure, but why assume the hundreds of millions of years required by the standard model? Related, the process of petrifaction is accomplished in hours in the lab, under the right conditions and catalysts. That these conditions existed in the past is inferred [not proven] by the fact that we find petrified remains in all kinds of sedimentary materials. Again, no reason whatever to claim ages of millions of years except to support the requirements of the standard model.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:40 pm
I used to think the Grand Canyon may have been carved electrically, but then I found out that there were two large ancient lakes that just happened to break open and drained through the Grand Canyon. They obviously drained when the sedimentary strata were still not very hard, which is why the canyon became so huge. I think that was a few centuries after the Great Flood, during the Shock Dynamics event.

--------------------Postby GaryN » Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:31 pm
    <<__Question 6 for Gordon: The Washington scablands that formed from the Missoula flood have potholes that formed by vortex cavitation during the flood, apparently, so were potholes in bedrock under the drift more likely form from flood than from glaciation? Are the scabland potholes ever filled with drift? Maybe this image answers the question: - The cobbles in that pothole will be found to be still attached to the bedrock, I have lots of images of the same kind of thing. The cobbles are of a different composition to the bedrock, basalt in my case, which means they were created and metamorphosed just where they now are. Forget water or glaciers, ALL rounded pebbles, cobbles, boulders were created by EM means in a split second.

____________________Postby webolife » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:31 pm
I think I disagree with Gary's assessment of the included pebbles in the potholes. In studying eastern Washington potholes, and other hilly basalt areas where pebbles are also found, I find rather that water action is likely responsible for the placement of these stream-rounded non-basalt rocks. In the case of smaller potholes, as were pictured above, the pebbles are agents of cavitation, and as they are forcefully slammed into the basalt by the vertical action, they can become lodged... this is an usual occurrence, but when I've seen it, the pebbles are wedged into crevices or other openings in vesicular basalt, or just laying on the floor of or surrounding the rim of larger potholes. The potholes I studied are those adjacent to Deep Lake in the Sun Lakes State Park, and the hilly areas were south of Vantage around Mattawa, where I hiked to collect petrified wood samples.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:08 pm
Frozen Mammoth Questions
I can't figure out if the frozen Arctic animals froze during the Great Flood, or some centuries later. It seems they had to die later, since they mostly didn't drown, but this video suggests that they died during the Great Flood, when the northern continents moved from their formerly warmer locations to their present ones. But what could have caused the temperature in the Arctic then to suddenly go below -150 F, the temperature needed to flash freeze them and prevent mammoth stomach contents from beginning to digest or rot? Also, what made the Arctic muck and loess and ice pellets that killed some or most of them? The muck contains a lot of smashed tree and animal parts.

--------------------Postby nick c » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:43 am
On page 3 and 4 of this thread there was some discussion of the frozen wooly mammoth carcasses that are periodically found within the Arctic Circle.
Previously, THE EXTINCTION OF THE MAMMOTH, By Charles Ginenthal was only available as a hardcopy for purchase; the book is now freely available on the net as a PDF here:

====================postby Lloyd » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:38 pm
- In the thread, Archaeological Find Challenges Standard Geology at
- I said: I found a good paper online by Oard that I think might help to get a more thorough model for ancient cataclysm completed. Oard's paper is at . Maybe you've read it already.

frozen mammoths, and evidence for the very fast cataclysm that froze them:

====================postby Lloyd » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:29 pm
Problems in the Glacial Theory
Creation Research Society Quarterly, 13(1):25-34, June 1976
[Note: I'm not a creationist, but they published a lot of good science. I suspect that the great majority of glacial evidence is actually great flood evidence as this article explains.]
... A layer of unconsolidated material [called drift] ... covers the solid sedimentary and igneous rocks in the temperate zones of Europe and North America. ... A ... similar [layer] occurs in parts of India, in South Africa, the tropical zones of South America, and in many mountainous areas of the world.
<<__Question 1 for Gordon: Do you agree that the drift in India, S Africa & S America suggests that the drift layer was deposited before the supercontinent split, because those 3 areas were adjacent on the supercontinent? Europe & N America were also adjacent. I wonder if the other mountainous areas containing drift are adjacent to both of those two north & south locations.>>
<<__Question 2 for Gordon: Why did the drift not lithify during the flood? Is there any other significant amount of drift that wasn't deposited by the Great Flood? And why are there locations with no drift?>
- The material consists of gravel, sand and clay, with many large boulders of variable composition, and innumerable rounded stones and pebbles of all sizes. Often it is hundreds of feet thick. Frequently stratification exists, and it is usually present in the sand in the pattern of cross stratification.
- Cross stratification:
- Usually referred to as "drift", the material is also known as boulder-clay, diluvium, outwash deposits, glacial moraine, and till. ... In general, the landforms composed of drift have a remarkably fresh appearance. Although they contain loose material, the effects of erosion have been minimal, showing they could not be of great age but must have been formed recently.
<Glacial Theory> Geologists believe that the last of the ice disappeared only a few thousand years ago.
- The [layer] of drift is shaped into a wide variety of structures, [kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings, striations, potholes & erratics, as follows below]....
<<__Question 3 for Gordon: Can you explain how a megatsunami could produce each of the drift types discussed below, i.e. kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings, striations, potholes & erratics? Or can you give a source that explains them all?>
- Images of kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings, striations, potholes & erratics:
- Kame:
- Esker:
- Drumlin:,
- Fluting:
- Striations:
- Potholes:
- Erratics:
- Kames are conical mounds usually composed of sandy material.
<Glacial Theory> [Kames] are thought to have been caused by the dumping of glacial debris when the great ice sheets of the glacial age melted.
- Eskers are long, winding ridges of gravel and sand.... Sometimes branching eskers occur. The eskers are known to stretch for great distances, go up and down hills, and disappear and occur again further on.
<Glacial Theory> [Eskers] are explained in the glacial theory as the debris of rivers formed in or on the glaciers, that was let down when the ice melted.
In the prairie regions of Canada and in the northern states of the United States there are various kinds of rimmed plateau(s), composed of drift. Often these have central depressions containing clay sediments. The rims are often composed of stony material and contorted drift layers. Some of the rimmed plateau(s) or prairie mounds are of large size, with areas of several square miles, and may reach as much as 150 feet above the surrounding hummocky and pitted regions.
<Glacial Theory> The rimmed plateau(s) and prairie mounds are explained in the glacial theory as landforms created during the melting of the great ice-sheets. The glaciers, it is believed, sometimes melted in such a way that isolated blocks of ice were formed, that wasted away and deposited their debris in various kinds of rimmed structures and plateau(s).
- Drumlins are hills shaped like the inverted bowl of a spoon.... Glacial flutings are similar, elongated parallel ridges and troughs. Individual flutings may stretch for several miles in the prairies of Canada and parts of North Dakota and Montana.
Drumlins and flutings are ... streamlined landforms ... often composed of drift, but many are bedrock or partly bedrock. Some have a mass of bedrock at their upstream ends. ... In drumlin swarms the drumlins all have locally parallel orientation ... sometimes covering thousands of square miles.
<Glacial Theory> Drumlins and flutings are explained as the effects of the movement of the ice in the glacial theory. The ice-sheet flowing across the countryside shaped and moulded the rocks and previously deposited layers of glacial debris into these remarkable ... landforms....
<<__Question 4 for Gordon: Could the parallel Nebraska dunes be drumlins or flutings? Is there any way an ice sheet could move significantly and streamline any of these drift types?>
- Striations are frequently present on the surface of the bedrock underlying the layer of drift. In some areas the bare rocks uncovered by drift are also scratched and grooved, as if by movement of stones across them.... Within the layers of gravel in the drift there are many rocks and boulders that are striated.
<Glacial Theory> These are thought to have been transported by ice and abraded in the process. ... [Bedrock surface striations are] attributed to the ice-sheets in the glacial theory [with] large numbers of stones being carried along in its base, that gouged the bedrock as the ice-sheet went along.
<<__Question 5 for Gordon: How could megatsunamis make striations on bedrock and on the rocks that they push around?>
- In the bedrock underneath the drift, and at many places where the bedrock is exposed, there are deep vertical potholes, ... usually filled up with the drift material, sand and gravel and large boulders.
<Glacial Theory> [Potholes] are often explained by reference to the glacial theory. These are attributed to glacial "moulins" or waterfalls tumbling down crevasses in the ice, that eroded the bedrock and caused these deep holes.
<<__Question 6 for Gordon: The Washington scablands that formed from the Missoula flood have potholes that formed by vortex cavitation during the flood, apparently, so were potholes in bedrock under the drift more likely form from flood than from glaciation? Are the scabland potholes ever filled with drift? Maybe this image answers the question: >
- Large boulders, ... known as "erratics" ..., are found in some regions with a composition quite different from that of the bedrock [and other drift] in the vicinity. These may sometimes be as large as houses, and are usually rounded, though some are of irregular shape. In the drift there are stones and pebbles of varying composition and appearance, but most of the rocks reflect the composition of the bedrock underneath.
<Glacial Theory> The large boulders ... are considered to have been transported from regions afar by the moving ice-sheets. ...
<<__Question 7 for Gordon: Why is most drift of the same rock type as the bedrock under it? If the flood transported large erratic boulders, shouldn't smaller kinds of drift material also be erratic?>
... ... Flint provides a table of some examples of ... erratics ... [here modified & supplemented]:
- Erratics
 Moved .. Uplifted
distance: height: .. From:
> 18 km; 1000 m; Mount Katahdin, Maine
> 100 km; 900 m; Adirondack Mountains, New York
160 km; 500 m; Allegheny Plateau, central New York
80 km; .. 900 m; Killington Peak, Green Mountains, Vermont
1,300 km; 1,300 m; Rocky Mountains of Alberta
Moved dist: .. To: .... From:
100-1250 km; UK-Russia; Scandinavia & Finland
1000 km; .... Missouri; Ontario
... km; ..............; Alberta
... km; ..............; Manitoba
... km; ..............; Northwest Territories
... km; ..............; [Ireland &] Wales
... km; ..............; Northern Germany
- These erratics, [many] perched higher than their sources, if they are to be attributed to ice, would require that the direction of the flow of the ice was opposite to the slope of the land. Flint suggested that the stones were carried in the base of the ice, which flowed uphill, rather than that they somehow migrated upwards through the ice. ... How Could the Ice Move Uphill?... Howorth accused the glacialists of departing from the principles of physics and appealing to "transcendental causes". ... Howorth believed that the motivation of geologists who favored the glacial theory was their reluctance to accept a catastrophic alternative. ... In his book Ice or Water he [said:] ... Their real inspiration has been the fervent hope embodied in the words with which Sir R. Ball concludes his ill-fated book on the Glacial Age. "The appeal to ice removed the glacial period from the position of a 'catastrophic' phenomenon. It placed the ice-sheet as an implement at the disposal of the geological uniformitarian."

... Arctic muck ... covers no less than one seventh of the land surface of earth, all of which ... lies within the Arctic Circle. Composed mainly of silt, sand, pebbles, and boulders, it is often accompanied by 'preserved, semi-decayed, or fully decayed vegetable and animal matter.' Its depth, in some places, 'has always caused even the most open-minded geologists to boggle.' The Russians, who have conducted prolonged studies on this muck, have in some places drilled down to more than 4000 feet without reaching rock bottom. Entire forests have been found buried in this area, including plum trees complete with their leaves and fruits, to say nothing of palm trees and huge exotic ferns ... [as well as animals like] the mammoth. ... [T]he Arctic Ocean [itself is] an immense basin scoured out of the living rock. [The north polar tornado/vortex did all that.]
... Entire forests in an uprooted condition, bituminous trunks and fossilized charcoal, are everywhere [in the Arctic] intermingled with petrified ash, and veins of ice, and sand that has turned into sandstone. Among this colossal devastation are found the skeletons of mammoths, rhinoceroses, bison, and horses.
... In the Mahabharata we read that Mandara, that churning mountain, was 'crowded with tusked animals.' Moreover, when the churning began, great trees spun off, were crushed against one another, lightning flashed forth, a fire blazed burning the elephants and other beasts, 'and all the various creatures there lost their life's breath.' The water pouring from above eventually dowsed the fire and flowed into the ocean.
... How did it all freeze? ... This is an easy question to answer. [The ancients] had long associated ... Saturn [on the polar vortex] with snow and hail, ... cold and moist, ... cold and windy, ... cold and frozen, [a] cold star. ... William of Conches ... tells us that 'Saturn is called cold not because he is inherently cold himself but because he causes cold.' ... [T]he Modoc Indians of southern Oregon and northern California [said] the Chief of the Sky Spirits drilled a hole in the sky with a rotating stone through which he pushed snow and ice to form a mound which almost touched the sky. ... Dolph **** informs us: "... we cannot find evidence that Earth's climate grew cold before the advent of an ice age; ... on the contrary, climate grew colder only after the ice arrived and only to the extent that the ice itself refrigerated the Earth.... Obviously the perma-frost accumulated from the bottom upward -- not by freezing from the top downward." What this means is that the detritus which forms the permafrost was frozen as it was being laid down. ... What I am claiming is that the snow, ice, and sleet came from the axial vortex when it was severed for the last time because that is where a vast quantity of terrestrial moisture had been stored.
... The Muria [tribe of] India tell without ambiguity how [the polar god] Mahapurub turned the world topsy-turvy. ... [The Hopi said] "The world, with no one to control it, teetered off balance, spun around crazily, then rolled over twice. Mountains plunged into seas with a great splash, seas and lakes sloshed over the land; and as the world spun through cold and lifeless space it froze into solid ice."

====================postby Lloyd » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:04 am
- Grey Cloud wrote: Does Antarctica Have A Hidden Layer Of Meteorites Below Its Surface?
- Did yous see my recent post, Huge Canyon and Crater in Antarctica, at The crater seems to have been discovered in 2006 under a km of ice in Wilkesland, while the canyon, over twice as long as the Grand Canyon, but not quite as deep, is in Princess Elizabeth land[?], and was written up last October or so in Geology magazine, I think. The canyon and a fairly large lake are also under a similar depth of ice. The crater is larger than any other known crater in the world at about 250 miles in diameter, but it's only about half as wide as the Somali Basin crater that Mike Fischer located off east Africa.
- The electric charge on bolides comes from friction in the atmosphere, as Charles Chandler explains in great detail, not from electric currents in space, as is theorized but never explained in any detail. The charge does build up enough to cause thermonuclear explosions, either from impacting Earth's surface, or from internal detonation as an airburst. The charge is great enough to carve out rilles near the point of impact.

--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:20 am
... Atlantis. Why would Solon (Athenian) or the Egyptian priest be using a Cretan script?
- The Oera Linda book, while very interesting, is of disputed provenance. 'Altland' = old land and has nothing to do with Atlantis (the book makes no such claims or inference). If memory serves, it was in the North Sea or possibly the Baltic. There were elephants and coconuts on Atlantis (according to Plato). Incidentally, there is a similar English book known variously as The Kolbrin, The Book of Kolbrin and the Kolbrin Bible, which contains the story (twice) of something called 'the Destroyer' which arrives in the sky and destroys much of life on Earth.
- Aquarius is not a water sign, it is an air sign.
- The biblical flood story is a straight lift of the Sumerian story from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Mount Ararat was not called Ararat in ancient times. Wasn't the OT Ark of equal length and width? In the Phoenician version, they, a sea-faring people, take the vessel out for sea trials before the flood and it's dimensions are more realistic.
- Khem is as far as I know the 'black land'. Egyptian 'Thoth', Greek 'Hermes' and Hebrew 'Cush' have no known etymological or philological connection.
- If you are going to use the OT as a source then I suggest the Septuagint as it is the earliest version or at least compare various versions. The KJV is probably the worst translation-wise.
- Virgin. This is a complicated or complex subject. It can refer to the constellation Virgo and also the universe or the soul for example. e.g. the virgin mother-goddess (the universe) gives birth but remains in her original condition - think closed system.
- "fountains of the great deep". What would Sumerians/Hebrews know of mid-ocean rift zones? Or if they did know, how would a people living in southern Iraq/Middle East know they had opened? To me 'great deep' would refer to space.
- I don't subscribe to Plate Tectonic theory. To me it makes more sense that earthquakes cause the cracks rather than the cracks causing the quakes. Could someone explain the mechanism for the plates pushing against each other? If the Earth is revolving on its axis at over 1,000 mph then would not centrifugal force pull them apart? ...
- CATASTROPHISM WEAKEST POINTS. On the science side there is a necessity to accept some mainstream science whilst at the same time rejecting some. On the ancient textual side there is the infuriating lack of dates, the sheer volume and diversity of the sources and the dubious translations. ...
- Not sure where you are getting the idea that this was one-off event. The ancient textual evidence points to at least two. Science points to several. e.g. Middle Bronze-Age collapse and Late Bronze-Age collapse. The MBA and LBA collapses happened in the eastern Med/ME, China and northern Europe. They may well have affected other regions, e.g. the Americas and Africa but scholars tend to not mention these.
- Rather than global flood I tend to think more in terms of global flooding. e.g. There are three separate floods in Greek myth - of Ogyges, Dardanus and Deucalion. Ogyges was something which happened to Attica; Dardanus lived on Samothrace and ended up in Anatolia, giving his name to Dardania and founding the original city of Troy; Deucalion is Thessaly and is corroborated by modern geology. The plain of Thessaly is a dried up lake bed. Lake was surrounded by moutains, quake split the mountains (Vale of Tempe?), water exited. ...
- Never yet come across an ancient text referring to Saturn as the first sun. In fact I rarely come across mentions of Saturn at all. The main actors appear to be Venus, Mars, Jupiter and the Sun (this one). El is the Phoenician(?) word for Lord.
- My current focus of study in on the LBA collapse in the eastern Med/ME because a) there are more sources and more English translations available and b) it can be tied to actual known historical events if not concrete dates.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:22 pm
... 'Altland' = old land ... LK: It could have been the land between Britain and Europe that flooded, could it not?
- GC: Aquarius is not a water sign, it is an air sign. LK: But I think Gray was saying that the Great Flood started when the Sun was in Aquarius. ...
- LK: ... I'm pretty sure the ark was said to be much longer than wide. ...
- LK: I agree the great deep probably referred to space. I had a thread here about Barbara Walker's book, Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets. The deep or great deep was said to refer to space, or the heavens, and was thought of as an ocean. I'm not sure about the fountains, but they may have referred to the fountains or splashes of meteors from space hitting the terrestrial ocean. Gordon says the Hebrew word, matar, likely meant meteors.
- GC: I don't subscribe to Plate Tectonic theory. ... LK: There is no subduction, except that plates can slide over each other, i.e. North America over the Pacific. It looks like subduction at the plate boundary, but the Pacific plate isn't subducting, it's moving horizontally under North America. Charles Chandler explained how the plates can continue to ratchet over each other via electrical tidal forces. The Shock Dynamics video at shows how an asteroid impact likely broke up the Supercontinent and caused rapid continental drift.
- GC: ... the Rockies and Andes are new. ... LK: All of the mountain ranges are new, from about 4,000 years ago, while the Flood likely occurred less than 4,400 years ago. ...
- GC: ... global flooding. ... LK: A lot of smaller floods occurred after the Great Flood. The Mediterranean Sea I think would have flooded shortly after the Shock Dynamics event. The Black Sea likely flooded after that. The Grand and Hopi Lakes breached and carved the Grand Canyon soon after the Shock Dynamics event, I think. The other inland lakes in the western U.S. drained around then too, I presume. ...
- GC: ... I rarely come across mentions of Saturn at all. ... LK: The Sun in the various languages initially referred to Saturn. That applies to Sol, Helios, Ra and others. And I just read today that "Cronos [or Kronos - the Greek name of Saturn] is called El by the Phoenicians." [W.A.Heidel, The Day of Yahweh, p470]. I read that in Cardona's book, God Star. And the book shows that Saturn was the main god of the ancients.

--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:16 am
... My views? Multiple catastrophes with the last major one approx 12,000 years ago. The last of the lesser approx 1200BCE. I'm more interested in the human side of things rather than the Earth/science side.
- ... If there was a 'global' flood then it would have been 12000 ya. It can't have been either the MBA or LBA collapses as there were still several peoples, eg, Egyptians, Indians etc who didn't completely collapse. ...
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:37 am
... (As I see it) Venus and Mars were definitely involved in the LBA collapse as were Jupiter and the Sun. Homer makes this clear. Whether Venus was involved in any of the previous incidents is hard to say partly because it is difficult to know in which time period a story takes place.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:44 pm
... Nanodiamond-Rich Layer across Three Continents Consistent with Major Cosmic Impact at 12,800 Cal BP
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:02 pm

XX 1st Draft / 4 = [1-3] The Supercontinent Breakup & Orogenesis
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:39:26 pm »
[1-3] The Supercontinent Breakup & Orogenesis
- Would you like to discuss the opening of the Gulf of Mexico more? I took a train ride from California to San Antonio, TX and from there north a couple weeks ago. I mostly noticed that mountain ranges were somewhat parallel to the Rio Grande at least from New Mexico through southern Texas.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:55 pm
I visualize the Gulf of Mexico as an astrobleme, although it is not a requirement of my earth history. By relation the Chicxulub event must have happened subsequently, since it overlaps the rim of the Gulf "crater". Putting the continents back together as Pangea, the gulf area is near in the central rift area of the opening of the fountains of the deep. I've heard the sky as deep or ocean theme but disagree with it. The fact of the "matar" or meteors/asteroids/planetoids or whatever is that we find them [their astroblemes] associated with every major stratum, so it is natural to expect they occurred the whole time of the flooding depositional sequence

--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:56 pm
... Just been watching this:
- The cosmictusk site which I've only recently come across majors on the Younger Dryas. Lot of interesting geological stuff in the video. Well worth the watch IMO even if it's only to disagree with.

- C.Smith, I took a very short peek at the Kloosterman paper so far, and it's intriguing. It looks like a conflagration was world-wide, instead of just mostly in North America and Europe. Rick Firestone and others have been finding there was an impact that likely caused that conflagration, but they haven't mentioned it being worldwide, that I know of. But this paper talks about the same soot layer and the same time period of about 12,000 years ago. I think those datings are way off; they should be about 4,000 years ago, I guess.

- Something Hit the Earth (See
AXIS RECOVERY (4,355 YEARS): summer solstices at Stonehenge, Amen Ra, Eodoxus show an exponential curve of recovery of the earth’s axis after a sudden change. The earth’s axis had once been almost upright, but it had suddenly changed to a 26½ degrees tilt, from which it had been wobbling back to its present mean tilt of 23½ degrees (Science Magazine, May 15, 1970). Dodwell concluded that something "struck" the earth at that time, 2345 BC.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:51 pm
... Jonathan Gray ... mentioned that the Earth appeared to have gotten hit by something some 4,000 years ago, which moved its axis from 90 degrees, the vertical axis position, to 26 1/2 degrees less than 90 and which has more gradually come back to its present position of 23 1/2 degrees less than 90. I don't think Gray mentioned what might have hit the Earth at that time, but that's where Mike Fisher comes in with his site. He determined what did hit us and where and how big it was and that it broke up the supercontinent, producing rapid continental drift. Webb has said that rapid continental drift took some months to move the continents to near their present positions, but Fisher says it took only 26 hours [&] occurred about 10,000 years ago ...

Lloyd, Think i've read where you were proposing a cataclysmic impact east of Madagascar ?
Here is a "recently published" gravity map of the Indian Ocean from new satellite data. Obviously their time frames and tectonic dynamics are center -mainstream, but the image detail is impressive.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:40 pm
Grey Cloud has read many native American stories, N,S and Central; many of them flood stories, many of them sunken (is)land stories; many of them etiological; none had dates. Grey Cloud also recalls that very many of these peoples did not originate anywhere near where they resided in historical times or the present. e.g (off the top of my head) the Apache are said to have originated somewhere near the 46th(?) parallel. Way up north anyway. Grey Cloud has much respect for Gitche Manitou, Tirawa, Wakan Tanka and all the rest. Grey Cloud's nickname is not entirely frivolous.
And lest we forget, the Americas form a large part of the world's surface but they are not all of it so even if all the N American stories related to the same event it would still not prove a global deluge.
Lovely story from the Lenape there. Creation myth with destruction myth tagged on the end, similar to the Sumerian. Lots of motifs common to creation myths generally, e.g. 4 pillars (grandfathers, four elements and their associations (so much for Empedocles inventing them according to the experts), world carried on the back of a turtle as per India (and Terry Pratchett).
P.S. The Skidi/Pawnee are a personal favourite.
--------------------Postby Roshi » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:39 am
China even has a date for the great flood:
    The Great Flood of Gun-Yu, also known as the Gun-Yu myth (traditional Chinese: 洪水),[1] was a major flood event that continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine. People left their homes to live on the high hills and mounts, or nest on the trees.[2] According to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, during the reign of Emperor Yao.
It was during the reign of Emperor Yao that the Great Flood began, a flood so vast that no part of Yao's territory was spared, and both the Yellow River and the Yangtze valleys flooded.[7] The alleged nature of the flood is shown in the following quote:
“ Like endless boiling water, the flood is pouring forth destruction. Boundless and overwhelming, it overtops hills and mountains. Rising and ever rising, it threatens the very heavens. How the people must be groaning and suffering!
Even a map:
A depiction of the system of the zhou, or "islands" (now reinterpreted as "provinces"), a system which Shun is credited with developing as a tool to allow political administration of a territory with ongoing flooding making normal communications impossible, although the number and locations of zhou have varied over time
And an interesting painting of Nuwa and Fuxi:

--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:58 pm
- From
- Molleson, Theya. “The Ordinary Neolithic People of Abu Hureyra.” Fresh Fields and Pastures New: Papers Presented in Honor of Andrew MT Moore (2016): 187:
- It's about an asteroid or comet impact.

2. I just read that the rim of Wolfe Creek Crater in Australia, I think, and the rim of Mare Imbrium on the Moon both have high thorium content. I assume the thorium was transmuted from a more common element during thermonuclear explosion during impacts. ... I don't know if thorium is common in many, most, or all impact crater rims.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:01 pm
The Corpse Came Back: Secrets of that Forgotten World after the Great Disaster, by Jonathan Gray
The ancient world surveyors had more on their minds than the earth's energy grid. - The calendar had to be re-calculated. The ancient calendars, you see, had the year at 360 days long. - It is from this number that is obtained the division of a circle, and the earth being divided into 360 degrees. - The ancient Chinese calendar was a 12-month year of 30 days each. - Babylonian records likewise show a year of 12 months of 30 days each. The old star maps had the sun moving through a path divided into 36 sections, each 10 days long. - The earliest Romans also had a year of 360 days. Plutarch, in his life of Numa, declared that in the time of Romulus the year was composed of twelve 30 day months. - The Mayan year (called a "tun") was of 360 days. - The Aryabhaitya, an ancient Indian work on mathematics and astronomy, says: "A year consists of 12 months. A month consists of 30 days. A day consists of 60 nadis. A nadi consists of 60 vinadikas." - The original Egyptian year was likewise 360 days long, according to the Ebers Papyrus.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:58 pm
post-Flood 365¼ day year, and NOT the pre-Flood 360 day year. The ancient Chinese, Babylonian, Roman, Mayan, Indian and Egyptian calendars were 360 days long. But later, every nation changed its calendar.
This website seems to be a good source for those as well as for related Bible passages:

--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:23 pm
A point I meant to pick up on from one of your earlier posts - the Earth's tilt. I agree that the Earth gained its tilt due to one of these incidents. (This seems to be taken as a given in Hermetic Philosophy). I think we may disagree as when this was. I can't find your comment but I recall it as referring or alluding to something biblical(?). Anyway, I'm thinking of the alignments of various ancient constructions to particular points in the sky or on the horizon. Would not these alignments be off if the tilt had occurred after they were built/erected?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:10 pm
I generally agree with your points here. I definitely believe that the tilting event occurred before the monuments were built, and relate this to the biblical record of the flood event. As a starting point, prior to the flood seasons were marked specifically by reference to the stars and moon; but after the flood seasons were declared to be climate/weather related, suggestive that the tilting event was in conjunction with the events of the flood year.

--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:24 am
essay by geologist Han Kloosterman:

--------------------Postby seasmith » Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:26 pm
Grey Cloud, Good find indeed. Sir Hoyle's timeline, backed up by his pedigree in astronomy, has always seemed a very reasonable perspective to me; and your cited paper by Hans Kloosterman certainly reaffirms the impression.
thank you Rens too...

=========================Postby Lloyd » Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:47 pm
- High Speed Continents. Gordon said: I have difficulty accepting the friction-free mechanism of the SD. Gordon, have you read up on long runout underwater landslides that Mike referenced? Why would that not apply to sliding continents? Mike said a similar long runout landslide was seen on Mars. And why could not the continents have slid on the Moho layer? Charles says that layer is plasma about one meter thick. Wouldn't plasma be nearly frictionless? Charles says racetrack playa rocks also slide due to electrical levitation of the rocks during windy episodes. Those are very low friction events. In my last reply to Mike I asked what it is, if anything, that might make it impossible that the continents could have moved apart in more than 26 hours. So I hope to find out if he has a strong argument for that or not.

[the drift episode], which I take to be 5 months based on the record. It is funny to hear you describe the 5 months as too slow!! And besides, the biblical record directly states that the period of the "matar" ended at the 150 day mark. I don't think you can be so confident about the lack of friction in the Moho, and sheer inertia considerations stretch the imagination to accept your speeds. The slowing of the drift toward the end, due to the friction that also produced the Andes and Rockies, etc. is consistent with the formation of the volcanic chains after the uplift. The hot spot under the Hawaiian chain is also consistent with the Pacific being squeezed from both sides during the drift event.

LK: Do you agree with Walter Brown's Hydroplate theory as the explanation for rapid continental drift?
I don't see much plausibility for the underground chambers of water. Do you?
GW: I taught from a standard text written back in the late 70s that made the claim that enough water is outgassed in volcanic eruptions to account for all of the world's oceans. I've been influenced by that statement, and can go with chambers or levels or layers or fissures/vents from the mantle or any other means by which water may have erupted out. But in my flood view, the water that already existed in the early seas is practically sufficient to have done the flood work via tsunami-type action.
LK: I don't think it would be possible for underground chambers of water to exist 10 miles down, because the rock is plastic, according to the Kola borehole findings. It became too plastic to drill through at 7 miles. I guess things could've been different before the flood.
Brown's Hydroplate theory explains continental drift as underground water chambers ten miles deep caving in and the pressure blowing out at the ocean ridges, which were previously part of the supercontinent.
CC: I don't see the evidence of large amounts of water coming out of the mid-ocean ridges.
LK: Gordon, have you done or seen calculations that support the Hydroplate theory?
- Do you agree with Brown's idea about underground chambers filled with water that caved in and sprayed water and rock through the spreading centers?
- What's wrong with Fisher's theory that continental drift occurred within a 26 hour period?
- If continental drift took 5 months, the continents would have moved at only 1 mph or less. Where would the force be applied to the continents for that lengh of time?
GW: I'm intrigued by it [Hydroplate theory?]. It would fit my model well if further confirmed. I'm not requiring the cave-ins but it's a good idea. I go with inertia after the initial drift-ignition event, Friction and inertia in some mix after that.
CC: I go with Fischer's theory of an impact that generated the momentum. I also favor rapid mountain building, instead of gradualism, just because one cannot say that the crust is oh so plastic, and then say that mountains could have been gradually built up -- if the crust was that plastic, the leveling process would have kept up with the mountain building, so clearly, the moutain building was on a faster pace.
GW: Good point, it is also for this reason I don't believe subduction is required to explain boundary mountains and trenches.
CC: I have a totally different idea of subduction. I don't think (like the mainstream) that the oceanic crust is falling because it is cooler -- it's actually warmer than the mid-ocean ridges. But I don't go with the "all over in an instant" model of Fischer's. Rather, I think that the impact event got things moving, but then I think that each earthquake in the subduction zone causes the next one. The energy sources that heat up the crust result in expansion. When traction is re-established after the rupture, the cooling then exerts a tensile force on the crust, pulling it toward the fault. This is why the rifts form in the back arcs.
LK: CC, have you written anything yet about earthquakes during the continental drift event?
CC: Do you mean in the initial event (i.e., Fischer's "bad day in Madagascar" event)?
LK: I mean during the entire episode of continental drift, mostly the Americas moving from Africa and Europe to about 3,000 miles west.
CC: No, I haven't treated that at all -- I think that Fischer has the right bacic idea, and until/if/when I've done a great deal more studying, I couldn't expect to improve on his work. I just don't think that it was all over in 26 hours -- I think that the initial impact got things going, but then the heating/cooling process at the faults helped keep things going.
LK: So the earthquakes you were talking about above are the current ones that do very minor continental drifting.
CC: Yes -- it's just a couple of centimeters at a time for a "normal" earthquake, is that right, Gordon?
GW: Yes, Charles, with some noteable exceptions: the quake/tsunami in Japan, the quake tsunami in Indonesia, the 1964 Anchorage quake/tsunami,
CC: OK, so I can see how the momentum, which when averaged out is just millimeters per year, could have been initiated by an impact event. But I don't believe that the event could have accelerated the continents to the speed that Fischer says, nor do I see what could have brought them to such an abrupt stop.
LK: I like Mike's explanation of fluidization as being involved. He said it's like landslides along continental slopes, where the rock slides horizontally for long distances [on the seafloor].
GW: I'm dubious on fluidization as the mechanism... heat increases friction and vice-versa. Am I just plain wrong about heat and friction?
Regardless, I believe that friction between the cont plate and ocean plates of the Pacific caused the slowdown and the mountain/trench building orogenies.
LK: Heat reduces friction and there may be ionization too.
- Gordon, that's what Mike says too, that friction is what caused the continents to slow down and heat up, causing mountain building.
CC: In my model, the lithosphere slides on a frictionless Moho, which is a thin (1 meter) layer of supercritical fluid, which is compressible, and frictionless. So tectonic motion doesn't require mantle plumes, nor the energy sufficient to fight friction at the crust/mantle boundary.
[LK: Mike referred to the Moho too.]
**CC: But this doesn't mean that the continents could have shifted thousands of kilometers in a day in my model. Mountains have roots, and moving the continents rapidly WOULD have forced friction. So in my model, electric currents in the Moho keep it molten (or rather, supercritical), but when mountain roots start pressing against the mantle, the tectonic motion has to wait for the electric currents to melt the rock. (I'll elaborate on that if you want.)
GW: Mountain roots are originating at the same time as the buildup, due to isostasy.
CC: Yes, but what I'm saying is that irregularities in the underside of the crust match up with complementary irregularities in the mantle. Then, for plate shifting to occur, one and/or the other has to undergo deformation. My problem with that is that it would take more energy than seems available. So I'm saying that the Moho is 1 meter thick, and hot enough to be supercritical. And it has an electric current in it. If plate shifting occurs, the irregularities don't match up quite so well, and that 1-meter gap gets reduced. The bad news is that the crust starts to run the risk of "running aground" as it shifts on the mantle.
[LK: You mean running aground during the major continental drift event?
CC: No -- I'm talking about the minor events, as we see today.] The good news is that the reduced gap forces more electric current through a smaller area, which produces more heat. So suppose there used to be a consistent 1-meter gap between the crust and the mantle. But then the crust shifted. Now the irregularities (e.g., mountain roots) result in there being only a 1/2 meter gap between the crust and the mantle. But then that heats up, and melts the rock, re-establishing the gap, and preventing the [ship-wise] "grounding".
LK: Charles, wouldn't the supercontinent have had a root in the mantle with the Moho between them there too?
GW: ??why?
CC: Yes.
LK: So if a water chamber were down there, it wouldn't blow out at the thicker part of the supercontinent, would it? Or wasn't it so thick? Did there have to be a weakness in the supercontinent for the Americas to split off?
GW: But due to the aplasticity of the crust the mountainforming "front" end is also more brittle, with many fissures and faults, thus we see the subsequent formation of the volcanic chains at those locations. Thicker but weaker, that's why I noted above that the roots are of the same nature as the mountains, with the notable difference that due to the same forces you are referring to much melting is occuring there, producing magmas and the like which extrude into the weak upper crust.
CC: Hang on right there...
I also have a totally different idea on volcanoes. I don't think that high pressure magma can get forced up through cracks in the crust. Rather, I think that cracks in the crust, which are common around faults due to the inelastic deformation, enable electric currents. A microfracture just 1 nano-meter wide can drop the electrical resistance of granite, from over 2 mega-ohms, down to about 300 olms. The result is an electric current, and then can melt the rock, due to ohmic heating. And I'm convinced that such electric currents, between the surface and the Moho (or at least between the ground table and the Moho) are what open up magma tubes. If it were not for that, there wouldn't be the concentration of heat into a tubelike structure that could create such a vent, since heat propagates outward radially. And high-pressure rock is a fair thermal conductor. (Cooler rock is a poor conductor.) But what we're seeing is a vertical shaft, from the Moho to the surface. This is not a characteristic of thermodynamics, but it IS a characteristic of electric currents.
- The significance of this is huge. Take the worst case scenario -- Yellowstone. There is no known way to prevent volcanic eruptions, much less at supervolcanoes. But what if it is an electric current that is generating the heat to pressurize the magma chamber? All we have to do is go about 100 km away, and drill a bore hole about 5 km deep, which will attract all of the telluric currents in the area, because it will fill up with highly conductive ground water. With no electric currents flowing through the magma chamber at Yellowstone, it will cool down, and eventually freeze over -- problem solved. A bore hole 5 km deep would cost about 20 million dollars to drill, which is within reach for humankind. So there's a practical way to prevent a mass extinction event.
GW: I'm not concerned so much with the mechanism; what you are saying is plausible. But the geography shows that generally volcanoes form not in the heights of the mount ranges [some exceptions] but on the lowland adjacent to the ranges
CC: Volcanoes occur where there is crustal deformation. I'm saying that the deformation creates the microfractures that enable the flow of electric currents. So under a given stress, it would make sense that the mountains do not undergo deformation, since they're thicker. A rigid material will always fail where it is thinnest. So the crust next to the mountains gets the deformation.
GW: I'm ok with that explanation.
CC: BTW, I'm saying that this is the same mechanism that causes earthquakes -- tectonic pressure causes crustal buckling, and then currents can flow through the microfractures. The current heats the crust, which causes more tectonic pressure, which increases the buckling. Thus it's a positive feedback loop, resulting in a rapid increase in pressure, which causes the rupture. The surface heating prior to the rupture cannot be explained as deformation, since it's elastic.

====================postby Lloyd » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:37 pm
- Continental Drift During Or Long After the Flood?
- Gordon, I think you stated earlier on this thread that an unusually large impact off east Africa caused months-long rapid continental drift, which caused the Great Flood and mountain uplift during the latter phase of the Flood. Is this correct?
- But weren't there a lot of plants and animals, including mammoths, suddenly frozen in the Arctic after the Flood? How could they have survived in the Arctic during and shortly after the Flood? Why would the Flood not have drowned all of them and buried them under sediment? And would it not have taken a few centuries for life to return to the Arctic after the Flood?
- Do you agree that the Flood had to occur on the supercontinent, before it split up, because the rock and fossil types on opposite shores of the Atlantic Ocean match up well? If the Flood had occurred after continental drift ended, the rock and fossil types on opposite shores would not line up well at all. Right? If continental drift took several months to get the continents to near their present locations, they would have been moving under 2 miles per hour. Long runout underwater landslides move much faster than that when they move horizontally on the seafloor. Don't they? If they moved too slowly, friction would quickly stop them. Right? Same with continents. Moving too slowly, the friction would not allow them to move so far.
- So, for those reasons, Mike Fischer's and Baumgardner's suggestions for the sequence of catastrophes seems most reasonable to me. Baumgardner implied that a large body orbited the Earth 5 or 6 times during the Flood on a long ellipse, which raised very high tsunamis once a month laying down sediment deposits each month with unconformities between them. Fischer puts the impact, continental drift and mountain uplift a few centuries after the Flood, when plants and animals have had time to repopulate the Arctic and then drift movement toward the pole resulted in the sudden freezing. If drift had taken a few months time, animals would have had time to leave the Arctic before the continents moved into the bitter cold region. Am I overlooking something important?
- By the way, Gordon, your info about climate being universally warm from the Cambrian down to the early Pleiocene, after which seasons set in, seems very significant. I'm glad to know about that.
____________________Postby webolife » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:33 am
- From Cambrian UP to the Pleistocene.
- I'm ok with the Madagascar impact suggestion, but I wasn't the one who made it. The months long drift episode works for me, although I'm friendly toward additional small "spurts" of drift after the main flood events; the other timelines don't fit well in my model.
- The friction issue is problematic, but speed doesn't help the problem, rather exacerbates it I think. There are too many unknowns to feasibly evaluated the various theories, even for standard continental drift timelines... we have a fingernail-growth slow rate today, due most reasonably to "braking" friction. How things happened before that [and how fast] is conjectural... I'm happy with the several months.

Webpage: Fossil Magnetism Reveals Rapid Reversals of the Earth's Magnetic Field: Since Continental Drift occurred during the Great Flood and largely caused it, the magnetic reversals on the seafloors must have occurred rapidly too ...

- The idea that vulcanism occurred after the flood subsided, 5 months after the impact, is interesting. I suppose with all the heat built up from the continental sliding, vulcanism and mountain uplift and subsidence would have been natural. ...

====================postby Lloyd » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:47 pm
- The Great Flood
In the thread, Archaeological Find Challenges Standard Geology at
- Gordon, Oard says there are 3 Creationist theories about the endpoint of the Great Flood:
1. Permian/Precambrian; 2. Cretaceous/Tertiary; 3. End of Cenozoic. Do you agree with #3?
- I'd like to have a handier way to represent all of the "time periods" in the geological column. So, starting at the top, I'd like to refer to the Cenozoic as 1, Mesozoic: 2, Paleozoic: 3, Proterozoic: 4, Archean: 5, Hadean: 6. The divisions I then number as 1a Quatenary, 1b Tertiary, 2a Cretacious, 2b Jurassic, 2c Triassic, 3a Permian, 3b Carboniferous, 3c Devonian, 3d Silurian, 3e Ordovician, 3f Cambrian, 4a Precambrian. Conventional dates are:
1: 0-2Myr; 66M; 2: 144M; 208M; 245M; 3: 286M; 320M; 360M; 408M; 438M; 505M; 4: 570M etc.
- Oard says the 2nd school of thought thinks "Cenozoic strata would be post-Flood" and it accepts the "dam-breach hypothesis for the origin of the Grand Canyon" in the late Cenozoic. "Great tectonic uplift occurred during the Cenozoic ... the post-Flood period". He adds that it provides no evidence for uplift being post-Flood, but I think there's great evidence for that, which I'll get to below.
- But first I have another question. I think you said you don't think Noah's ark necessarily landed on Mt. Ararat, but may have landed near it. In that case the mountains could have uplifted later. Could they not?
- Here's my thinking on why mountains must have uplifted a few centuries after the flood, which I partly discussed earlier in this thread. Mammoths and other mammals froze very abruptly in the Arctic and the likeliest cause was rapid continental drift, which moved the northern continents northward into the Arctic. Many mammoths and other animals and trees seem to have been washed into the Arctic Ocean by a flood that swept over Siberia, probably due to the continental drift. The drift was most likely caused by a huge impact off east Africa, which provided the horizontal compressive forces necessary to uplift mountains. Grand Lake and Hopi Lake formed during the continental drift event during mountain uplift and they drained catastrophically sometime later, forming the Grand Canyon.
____________________Postby webolife » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:09 am
- Agreements... Most of Oard.
- Cenozoic sometime around the Pliocene/Pleistocene. Remember that a stratum is not directly indicative of an exact time relationship, but of event. Prior to sometime in the Pliocene all fossils down to the Cambrian indicate a tropical or subtropical clime, afterward, we see diverse climate divisions, indicative of a line of demarcation between evidence of a pre-flood world and the world which followed, due to what I dare to presume was a geologically rapid change in both the atmosphere and the topography. The arctic was not climatically identifiable prior to this time as indicated by the warm weather fossils found in the upper latitudes. It developed later. Continents drifting northward, which is likely, encountered colder climes than in its original position. This may very well have initiated the rapid cooling that started the glaciation and froze some of the mammoths.
"Harar" used after the flood description probably indicates mountain ranges, and Ararat is derived from that term. That being said, the mountain ranges arose in connection with the drift, but it is virtually certain that volcanoes rose up after the mountain ranges.
- Flaws...
- Using terms like "most likely" for something which is pure speculation.
Assuming that drift [and therefore orogeny] occurred sometime after the flood, rather than during or in the end times of the flood. This, if presumed to have happened in a relatively short time-frame, would have resulted in more cataclysmic deformation and transformation of the earth than the flood it was alleged to have followed.

__TIAHUANACO. [During Supercontinent Breakup] Titicaca, at 12,000 feet altitude, is the highest navigable lake in the world. 4,000 years ago Titicaca was on sea level. At 11,500 feet, a whitish streak runs along the side of the mountain range for over 300 miles, composed of the calcified remains of marine plants, formerly on the seashore. In fact, many lakes up in the Andes region are completely salt. A watermark of salt along the Titicaca lake shore now runs at an angle to the water level. On the beach of this lake high in the mountains, there are seashells as well as traces of seaweed. Even today, various sea creatures (including sea horses) survive in the lake. Only a few intermediate surf lines can be detected, so the elevation could not have proceeded gradually.
-Traces of a sizeable city lie at the southern side of the lake. Of 400 acres of ruins, only about ten percent have been excavated. endless agricultural terraces, now abandoned, rise as high as 18,400 feet above sea level, and continue up under the snow. Such an abundance of cornfields must have supported a huge population. After the disaster, the populace lay buried in gullies that had become mass graves, covered by silt.
-The remains of an ocean quay is known as the Puma Punka, near the stadium of Tiahuanaco. One of the construction blocks from which the pier was fashioned weighs an estimated 440 tons. One wharf is big enough to take hundreds of ships.
-The Subterranean Temple, the Kalasasaya [and] the Akapana are precisely oriented to the cardinal directions of the PRESENT DAY. Tiahuanaco’s buildings are not oriented to the pre-Flood axis, but are exactly oriented to the compass points of today’s post-2345 BC world, with its new axial tilt. The depictions among the ruins of Tiahuanaco of numerous now extinct animals are readily explainable.
-The construction and use of reed boats on Lake Titicaca are identical to the reed boats of ancient Egypt. Many of the building blocks in Tiahuanaco are held together by large copper clamps shaped like an I. Others (now dismantled) were held together by silver rivets, similar to the Egyptian ruins on Elephantine Island on the Nile. Copper trepanning instruments of Tiahuanaco (for opening the cranium) were identical to those used by the Egyptians – as were the methods used! They point to direct contact between Tiahuanaco and ancient Egypt, as contemporary civilizations. A French engineer came upon an ancient carved rock hidden by dense jungle close to a river, which recorded the journey of an early Egyptian priest to what is now Bolivia (the land of Tiahuanaco). The inscription gave directions to silver and gold mines.
-Mountain Forming Witnessed. Various tribes of the Americas witnessed new mountains being raised and others flattened (Karl Brugger, The Chronicle of Akakor. 1977). A recent example was during an earthquake off the northern tip of Sumatra on December 26, 2004, the sea bottom in the Straits of Malacca uplifted almost 4,000 feet in only about 3 minutes. The depth was cut from 4,060 feet to 105 feet (Star newspaper, Kuala Lumpur, January. 13, 2005, quoting a report in the shipping journal Portsworld). Sonar images from British navy ship HMS Scott showed the massive uplift of a large area 10 kilometres wide and up to 1.5 kilometres high (4,800 feet plus).

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:22 pm
- Cataclysm Occurred 4,300 Years Ago
These Geological Features Yield Ages of About 4,000 Years
-INLAND LAKES: lakes of the Great Basin; Albert and Summer lakes in Oregon; Owen Lake in California; Lake Agassiz, the largest glacial lake in North America
-RIVER DELTAS: The deltas of the Nile, the Volga, the Mississippi and Bear River on the Alaska-British Columbia border
-WATERFALLS: Niagara Falls, Horseshoe Falls, Upper Great Gorge, Niagara River bed
-CORAL REEFS: Great Barrier Reef in Queensland, Australia, Pandora Reef
-TREES: Sequoia; New Zealand’s Coromandel Peninsula, giant kauri; Bristlecone pine
-OLDEST DESERT: Sahara Desert
{In 1999, the Potsdam Institute for Climate Research, in Germany said the Sahara Desert is only about 4,000 years old (originating around 2000 BC) (July 15, 1999. Geophysical Research Letters).}
-OTHER NATURAL FEATURES: Magnetic reversals, varves, coal, canyons, dense jungles, rock strata, fossils and so on (
-DATING OF ROYAL GENEALOGIES [of several European Nations]
- EGYPT: Egypt’s monuments themselves do not begin their records before the 19th dynasty. The Byzantine chronicler Constantinus Manasses wrote that the State of Egypt had already lasted 1663 years, [since] 2188 BC. Egypt was anciently known as the land of Khem (i.e. Ham [son of Noah]). Menes and Hermes were two of Ham’s sons. HERMES (CUSH) WAS FOUNDER OF EGYPT’S RELIGION. Chaldean was a diplomatic language in Egypt. “Her”, in Chaldee, is “Ham”, or “Khem”, “the burnt one”. The Egyptian god HOR-us (the sun) is “Her” (“the hot or burning one”). Her-mes means the son of Her (Ham).
- DATING OF ATLANTIS: An ancient history book, the Oera Linda Boek, dating primarily from AD 803, but added to for 500 years, bears this postscript: “written in Liuwert (Ljuwert) in the 3,499th year after Atland (Atlantis) sank, or 1256, the year of the Christian reckoning.” This historian placed the sinking of Atlantis in 2244 BC (Alec Maclellan, The Lost World of Agharti. 1982, p. 186).
- WHAT THE TOLTECS REMEMBERED ABOUT HISTORY: In the sixteenth century, the native Mexican chronicler, Ixtilxochitl in his Relaciones penned a history based on all available pre-Conquest records and legends. ... The Flood came “after the world had existed for 1,716 years” (Francis Hitching, World Atlas of Mysteries. 1978, p.165). This is only a 60 year variation from the figure given in the King James Bible. (Genesis chapter 5)
- FLOOD DATE ALSO DEFINED: The Flood ended in 2344 BC. The Great Pyramid independently confirms this date (Stewart, The Mystery of the Great Pyramid, pp 17-19). The star group Aquarius is featured in the astronomy of the Pyramid. Ancient peoples associated AQUARIUS with the waters of the GREAT FLOOD. The pyramid measurements incorporate the length of the new, post-Flood 365¼ day year, and NOT the pre-Flood 360 day year.
-The ancient Chinese, Babylonian, Roman, Mayan, Indian and Egyptian calendars were 360 days long. But later, every nation changed its calendar.
- DATE OF THE FLOOD - ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE RECORD: We start from a known date in history, the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC. [Make that 399 BC per Dating2 file.] add the years of the kings of Judah after Solomon which totalled 345. 586 + 345 = 931 BC. Solomon reigned for 40 years, his first year was 970 BC. In the fourth year of Solomon’s reign he began to build the house of the Lord (1 Kings 6:1) = 967 BC, the 480th year from the Exodus. 967 + 480 = 1446. From Abraham’s call to sacrifice Isaac until the Exodus was 430 years. The portion of this sojourning spent in Egypt was only 260 years, from 1706 to 1446 BC. The beginning and ending dates of the Great Flood was around 2345 to 2344 BC. 2345 = 1446 + 970 + 931 + 586.

====================postby Lloyd » Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:19 am
- Dating the Main Cataclysm
- Grey Cloud, since you've said you're interested in Bronze Age cataclysms, would you like to comment on the following material from a catastrophism conference? I suppose it occurred in the 1990s, but that's just a guess. I got this free from the same site I mentioned last time. If you copy 2 or 3 words toward the beginning or end of a paragraph from a prior search, you can often find more from the same source. It took me about 6 such searches to get the following. This intrigued me because it sounds very much like what Mike Fischer's Shock Dynamics theory of continental drift says, at least regarding the huge impact site, just north of Madagascar. Fischer is saying this occurred nearly 12,000 years ago, but this paper said 4,300 years ago, which is what I and Gordon conclude. If Gordon's reading this, I hope you may comment too.
- I'm also including in green type another of the conference topics on how cataclysms led to religions etc.
- The Cambridge Conference [SIS C&C Workshop]
- [The conference covered] three papers dealing with the historical evidence for catastrophes. Steven Robinson ... suggested that fossil evidence actually indicates rapid events and that the vast geological time scale depends upon radiometric dating which is probably suspect in its assumptions. World wide accounts of a catastrophic flood, if considered as actual historical accounts, could explain much of the geological evidence. A catastrophic model of causation suggests a massive impact north of Madagascar. Accounts in the Bible would seem to indicate this and ancient maps confirm that continental movements have taken place within historical times. Considering the evidence of the ice-ages, climatic change and the evidence for violent earthquake activity in the Early Bronze Age, Steven concluded that the early Cambrian period should be considered to be only thousands, not millions, of years ago, at the time of the Flood, the Cretaceous/Tertiary event marked the division of continents and that the end of the ice-ages occurred around 2,300 BC, caused by an increased tilt of the Earth.
- John Bimson considered the biblical evidence for catastrophes. Velikovsky's scenario had been founded on the idea of the Exodus taking place at the time of a great catastrophe in the middle of the second millennium BC. Did biblical traditions support this? The implication of the astronomical use of megalithic monuments would indicate that these were built after any major Earth shifting catastrophe and radiocarbon dating led to the conclusion that any such catastrophe took place at the end of the Egyptian Old Kingdom, in line with Mandelkehr's 2,300 BC event. The destructions in the Middle Bronze Age were not so widespread as those of the Early period and could have been caused by man. All the events of the Exodus could be explained by normal, though exaggerated, happenings, except for the pillar of fire, which could be considered a metaphor for God's presence. The area is on the north end of the Great Rift Valley which cuts down through Africa, and all could be explained by this being in a state of seismic upheaval. Even the sun standing still could be a misunderstanding. In conclusion then, although the events described were catastrophic there was no evidence that they were other than terrestrial. Later references, however, in the time of Tuthmosis III and the Hittites, to showers of stones, suggested that destructive meteorite falls were common at that period and it is therefore possible that the terrestrial events of the Exodus were triggered by extraterrestrial causes.
- Bob Porter considered the archaeological evidence of the Near East. There appeared to be three widespread destruction events during the Bronze Age, the first coinciding with the end of the Egyptian Old Kingdom at around 2300 BC at a time of climatic change. Evidence of new peoples could be taken as invaders or simply people taking advantage of destroyed areas. Deforestation may have helped change the climate. However, it was admitted that no ordinary earthquake could destroy so large an area and therefore something larger needed to be considered. The hiati supposed to be at the end of the Middle Bronze Age, and the second intermediate period in Egypt are a result of a catastrophic mistake in chronology as a result of using Sothic dating. Sites such as Ugarit and Qadesh show little sign of such hiati although there is a destruction at the end of the MB, probably as the result of an earthquake. Although earthquakes today are usually localised, they appear to have been widespread throughout Palestine, Syria and Mesopotamia at this period. A final wave of destruction took place at the end of the Late Bronze Age, associated with famine, war, the Sea Peoples, the end of the Scottish Bronze Age and the rise and fall of the Shang dynasty in China. Twenty narrow tree rings found by Baillie in his samples for this period indicate a long drought, so there was no need to posit a cosmic catastrophe directly. Questions from the floor clearly indicated that many felt that the degree of the destructions could not be explained by natural seismic or climatic events.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:41 am
Evidence Sources
Some of the best sources I know of offhand are:
- Mike Fisher's Shock Dynamics at
- Walter Brown's Hydroplate Theory at
- The Hydroplate theory seems largely unrealistic, but these sections are very impressive evidence for catastrophism:
= Liquefaction: The Origin of Strata and Layered Fossils
= The Origin of the Grand Canyon
= The Origin of Limestone
= Frozen Mammoths
= The Origin of Earth's Radioactivity
- Faulty Dating Methods
- Catastrophism
- Faulty Dating Methods

XX 1st Draft / 2 = [1-2e] The Great Flood: Advanced Civilization
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:28:19 pm »

In the Middle East prior to 1000 BC large forest trees covered especially the higher elevations. Israel and Jordan supported a wild animal population not unlike that of North Africa. Similar evidence exists for North and South America, Asia and Australia (Jonathan Gray, The Corpse Came Back, chapter 20). And the transition from ice age to the present desert environment took place between 2250 to 2000 BC. (See Appendix 1.)

- Evidence of Civilization Destroyed by Global Cataclysm
-In 1965 a research vessel, "Anton Brunn", was investigating the Nazca Trench, off Peru. At a depth of 6,000 feet a photograph revealed huge upright pillars and walls, some of which seemed to have writing on them. In other nearby locations, apparently artificially shaped stones lay on their sides, as though they had toppled over.
-1-In Western Australia in 1975, water drillers near Perth struck a concrete wall 30 feet below the surface.
-2-At Aix-en-Provence, France, from 1786 to 1788, coins, stumps of columns and other worked stones, were discovered 50 feet down, below eleven beds of compact limestone.
-3-At Blue Lick Springs, Kentucky, underground, below the remains of a prehistoric mastodon, was discovered a pavement of cut-stone tiles.
-4-In the autumn of 1868, in a strip of coal mine near Hammondsville, Ohio, at 100 feet below ground was found a large, smooth, slate wall covered with inscriptions similar to hieroglyphics, in lines about three inches apart. Crowds flocked to see, but the slate soon crumbled and the writing was destroyed.
-5-In November 1829, in a quarry twelve miles northwest of Philadelphia, at a depth of 69-70 feet below ground, a block of marble was found, which bore an indentation containing the raised alphabet characters 'I' and 'U'. Two years later the discovery appeared in an illustration in the American Journal of Science, vol.19, p.361.
-6-In Omaha, Nebraska, about 130 feet underground, coalminers found a carved slab of rock with diamond shapes. In the centre of each diamond was an engraving of a human face (Omaha Daily News, 1897).
-7-In 1928 in coal mine No. 5, near Heavener, Oklahoma, at a depth of two miles, miners encountered a wall composed of 12 inch cube concrete blocks polished so that all six sides acted as mirrors. About 100 to 150 yards further down the shaft, the same wall or one very similar was uncovered. That part of the mine was then filled up.
-8-Coal was NOT laid down 300 million years ago, but very recently, after civilized man.
-9-Huge stone cities, very ancient, with paved streets and tall pyramids choked with forest, have been sighted in the Amazon jungle. climate was more temperate and the rivers drained a fertile area. their alphabetic letters were Phoenician and Greek, 3,000 to 4,000 years ago. the whole Amazon basin was a shallow inland sea that existed AS RECENTLY AS 1200 BC. People wall-papered their houses with thin sheets of beaten gold. The people had fine features. They used gold coinage and operated fleets. Their buildings were of shining white stone. Their cities boasted magnificent plazas, paved streets, ornamented temples, round-topped pyramids, mansions and fountains. They erected lighthouses and used lenses and reflectors, the elements of the telescope. And the cities were walled against the sea of the Maranon (the Amazon Sea). According to native traditions, they used a light source akin to our electric bulb.
- South America was well known in antiquity. Before the jungle took over, it was resplendent with great cities. Many ancient traditions speak of an advanced culture which flourished thousands of years ago to the north and west of the Brazilian highlands. Books of wonderfully executed paintings and hieroglyphics have been found among naked Panos savages of the deep Peruvian forests near the gorge of the Ucayle, in the Amazon headwaters, in the eighteenth century. The Indians explained that the books, handed down, contained a history of events in the days of their ancestors. The pages of fine cotton, in external appearance resembling modern quarto leaves, were bound with a cover, glued together and fastened by agave threads. One of these ancient books was acquired by Fray Narcissus Gilbar and sent to Lima to be inspected by P. Cisneros, compiler of a periodical called El Mercurio Peruano.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:46 pm
- ANCIENT MAPS Show Land Before & After Cataclysm
- Maps show Antarctica firstly free of ice, secondly, the centre of Antarctica beginning to fill with ice (rivers and fjords being shown where today mile-thick glaciers flow) and thirdly, Antarctica after it had become mostly covered in ice. The U.S. Hydrographic Office declared one of these maps to be over 5,000 years old (Gray, Dead Men’s Secrets, pp.24-30). Similar ancient maps show Greenland before it was covered in ice; glacial actions in the Baltic countries; and northern Europe being covered by the Ice Age glaciation’s furthest advance. They were recording it as it occurred! The map illustrates this interesting fact: Before the final tearing apart of the continents, the Ice Age had begun.
[It apparently took very advanced civilization to produce the ancient maps below. The ones handed down were likely copies, but they're nonetheless usually very accurate.]
- From the various astronomical references in the Book of Job, different astronomers claim to be able to calculate the time in which Job lived, 2200-2100 BC (Miracle in Stone, pp.203-206). In his Ice Age book, Job recorded that “the waters [of the sea] harden like stone, and the surface of the deep [ocean] is frozen” (Job 38:29,30).
- Partholan’s coming to Ireland (15th century BC) says Lakes and rivers ‘break out’.
- The Zeno map, drawn in 1380 outlines the coasts of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Scotland, as well as the exact locations of islands. Greenland is shown free of glaciers. Unknown rivers and mountains have since been located in 1947-1949.
- The Camerio map of 1502 was formed on a spherical grid.
- The Zauche map of 1737 shows Antarctica free of ice. it is shown as two islands. Also shown are islands of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.
- Another map drawn in 1531 by Orontius Fineus indicates that the centre of Antarctica was beginning to fill with ice. It shows rivers and fjords.
- The Mercator chart of 1569 depicts only the Antarctic coast uncovered by glaciers.
- Another, copied in 1559, the Hadji Ahmed map shows Antarctica and the Pacific coast of the United States with the land bridge that once existed between Siberia and Alaska.
- The Andrea Benincasa map (1508) indicates that Northern Europe was being covered by the Ice Age glaciation’s furthest advance.
- The Iehudi Ibn ben Zara map of 1487 shows remnants of glaciers in Britain And islands in the Mediterranean and Aegean Seas, now under water.
- The Hamy King chart (1502) indicates northern Siberian rivers emptying into the Arctic Ocean now all under ice. It also shows glacial actions in the Baltic countries. What are today huge islands in Southeast Asia are shown on this map joined to land as they once were. The map even shows an ancient Suez Canal!
- Ptolemy’s map of the North depicts a glacial sheet advancing across south-central Greenland; and at the same time it shows glaciers retreating from northern Germany and southern Sweden.
- The Orontius Fineus map has Antarctica drawn too large, although mountains and other details are accurately presented.
- The Gloreanus map (1510) shows not only the exact line of the Atlantic coast of America from Canada to Tierra del Fuego, but also the whole length of the Pacific coast.
- The King Jaime World Chart (1502) shows the Sahara Desert as a fertile land with large lakes, rivers and cities.
- The Dulcert map of 1339, tracing from Ireland to the Don River of Eastern Europe, shows great precision.
- The Hydrographic Office of the Navy verified an ancient chart called the Piri Reis map, that goes back more than 5,000 years. It contains the following:
1. The correct locations of South America, Africa, the Caribbean, Spanish, African and South American coasts and even isolated areas, like Cape Verde Island, the Azores, the Canary Islands, as well as topographies of the interiors.
2. The coastline of Queen Maud Land in Antarctica with islands and bays now below the Antarctic ice sheet and a mountain range undiscovered until 1952.
3. The Isle of Pines, Andros Island, San Salvador, Jamaica, the mouth of the Amazon and the island of Morajo.
4. Greenland, shown as three islands [as it was before glaciation].
5. Every mountain range in northern Canada and Alaska.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:13 pm
... Online Conference Transcript
... CC is Charles. GW is Webb. LK is Lloyd.
LK: Are the ancient maps good evidence of former advanced civilization?
- Do you think there was advanced civilization that produced the Bible? Or that produced the ancient maps and other traces?
GW: Yes, I think the early Chaldean civilization was advanced, and produced maps, but I don't endorse every archaeological claim I've encountered about this.

--------------------Postby Pi sees » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:39 am
My understanding is that "Khem" refers to the black soil left behind by the flooding of the Nile.
- DATING OF ATLANTIS: Plato's proposed location for Atlantis (i.e. in the vicinity of the Azores) and time of its destruction (i.e. circa 9600 BCE) make complete sense in light of the geological evidence.
- Plato's proposed location makes sense owing to the fact that Azores Plateau is located at a 3-way intersection of the North American, Eurasian and African tectonic plates. During the Ice Age, the huge ice sheets covering northern Europe and Canada would have pressed down on the glacier-covered areas of the Eurasian and North American plates respectively; this pressure would have caused isostatic rebound in the non-covered parts of those plates, both across the plates and by channeling magma pressure down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge toward the aforementioned 3-way plate intersection. At the same time, the African plate was (and still is) pushing northwards into the Eurasian plate. The combined effects of these geological pressures would have been sufficient to raise a highly fertile but unstable landmass of a size comparable to modern-day Turkey (as per Plato's description), primarily composed of the Azores Plateau.
- The African plate was actually being forced to push into the Eurasian plate in a twisting north-eastward fashion, because the Azores Plateau was acting as an obstacle to the northwestern part of the plate; this "twisting" meant that the northwestern part of the African plate eventually started to pull away from the Eurasian plate, resulting in a loss of geological pressure critical to keeping a large Atlantic island above sea level.When the European and North American ice-sheets started to melt towards the end of the Pleistocene, the previously glaciated areas of those continents started to undergo isostatic rebound, resulting in a corresponding subsidence of the previously unglaciated parts of their respective plates as well as a loss in pressure being channeled down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge towards the Azores Plateau. In other words, Atlantis was hit with a geological triple-whammy (isostatic rebound, loss of channeled pressure down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, and the twisting movement of Africa) about 12,000 years ago, causing the large island to sink beneath the ocean surface in a geological instant. Over the next 10+ millenia the former island continued to subside more gradually (but still very quickly in geological terms) to its present level, hence Plato's reference - based on much older accounts - to a "shallow muddy shoal" rendering the Atlantic Ocean "impassable" in the general area where Atlantis had formerly stood.

many advanced ancient ruins: Baalbek, Sacsayhuaman

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:19 pm
After the Cataclysm
The Great Pyramid’s latitude (30 degrees 00 minutes north) is precisely an “ark’s length and height” south of the remains of Noah’s Ark (39 degrees 26 minutes north) in Turkey (Persian Triangle Mystery).
Surviving today are portions of ancient world maps drawn by surveying parties before, during and after the Ice Age (See Appendix 2). At least two - the Piri Reis and Reinal - were based on a circular projection with the focal point in Egypt.
(a) the Great Flood (2345 to 2344 BC),
(b) the founding of Egypt (2250 to 2188 BC) and
(c) the Great Pyramid (2144 BC)
-EGYPT. “INCH” AND “CUBIT” LINK. In Egypt, the royal cubit of 20.6 inches is well known. The British inch is derived from the pyramid inch. One pyramid inch equals 1.0011 British inches, one 500-millionth part of the earth’s polar axis. The royal Egyptian cubit and the inch have a relationship called the Golden Ratio.
-A wreck in Turkey, believed to be the Ark, has seven examples of this .618 ratio (Jonathan Gray, The Ark Conspiracy, Chapter 8). The pre-Flood cubit used in the Ark was taken to Egypt to become the royal Egyptian cubit. It was Mizraim, Noah’s grandson, who founded Egypt.
-The Great Pyramid accurately stands in the centre of the land surface of the earth as it NOW exists and marks both the longitude and latitude at which there is more land and less sea than at any other coordinates on earth.
1. THE BUILDERS WERE NOT EGYPTIAN. 2. HISTORICAL ACCURACY WAS NOT A PRIORITY. 3. AMID ENVIRONMENTAL TRAUMA, MUCH CULTURE WAS FORGOTTEN. There was a sudden, dramatic drop in the human life span, as recorded by the ancient Chinese and the Hebrews (See The Corpse Came Back, chapter 18). Much earlier knowledge was quickly lost. The few Flood survivors, although bringing with them knowledge from the pre-Flood world, were too few in number to put most of it to practical use immediately. Population growth was rapid, so Two hundred years was all it needed [to re-establish civilization].
-BABYLON. Sumerian tradition preserved two lists of “kings” who reigned before the Flood. One contained eight names, as does the family tree of Cain, [and] the other ten names, as does the family tree of Genesis 5. After Alexander the Great had defeated Darius in 331 BC, he journeyed to Babylon and his scholars learned about the 1903 years of astronomical observations from the Chaldeans of Babylon. That placed the founding of Babylon at 2234 BC (Martin Anstey, The Romance of Bible Chronology. 1913, p.92). This is uncannily close to the biblical date for the Tower of Babel (c. 2244 BC).

=========================Postby Lloyd » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:52 am
When I looked at that map, it looked to me like the origin could have been Asia Minor as much as Africa. There are arrows pointing in that direction, Asia Minor to Africa, as well as Asia Minor to everywhere else. Besides, Egypt is in Africa and it's at least as old as Sumer, I've read. Both places seem to be origins.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:41 pm
Indus Valley civilisation is as old as Egypt and Sumer.
Most of the peoples who invaded/entered the Middle East seem to have originated somewhere in Eurasia. Where they hit the Middle East depended on which way they moved around the Caspian and/or the Black Sea. The various mountain ranges extending west from Iran to the Aegean play a big part too - only so many places they can be crossed.
--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:59 am
The so-called 'dark age' is the result of the refusal by academics to ever acknowledge the seafaring civilisation of the Canaanites/Phoenicians.
The ancient world during 1700-722 BC was very well-connected through extensive sea trade. The shipping lanes connected the Baltic, British Isles, Africa and India with the Mediterranean. This vibrant trade between nations, languages and tribes was accomplished mainly by the Canaanites/Phoenicians--who also developed the alphabet and the first books. This is the world of the Old Testament. It was a highly interconnected world. For example, there are faience beads and also necklaces which are of the Mycenaean style in Wessex burial sites showing that trade was already developed in the north in 1450 BC. Tyre and Sidon were great seafaring cities and are some of the most mentioned people in the Old Testament.
The enormous blind-spot exhibited towards the Phoenicians is merely academic tradition.
That reminds me, I was delighted by Lloyd's mention of the possibility of Canaanite trade in the New World.
--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:35 pm
Claude Schaeffer...archaeologist whose excavation of the ancient city of Ugarit at Ras Shamra Syria, disclosed a succession of culture from about 1195 BC back to the 6th and 7th millenia BC.
...He found that Ugarit, a coastal city and port in ancient times, was quite cosmopolitan; in various periods it showed evidence of cultural influence from Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Hittite and Mediterannean civilizations.
The tablets included texts of literary works of considerable sophistication and originality that also helped to establish the Canaanite origin of the stories of the Patriarchs in the Bible.
--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:25 pm
Because of Schaeffer's work in more widely distributed areas, he was able to see common stratigraphy between the locations.
The significance of this development for accurate dating is astonishing to think about.
First, this may throw an enormous spanner in the academic dating traditions, who -- due to their own biases -- relate all dates to Classical Greek and Egyptian civilizations. That in itself is an enormous problem because if they have Greek and Egyptian dates wrong, the entire system falls.
Next, the disasters which befell these ancient cities left layers in the record which can be harmonized over wide areas. With today's electron microscope technologies, depositions can be identified with confidence, because as we know every volcano or high-temperature event leaves its own fingerprint, which is unlike that of any other volcano or high-temperature event.
And Claude Schaeffer was firm in his conviction: he had identified a precise year for the 1195 BC destruction of Ugarit.

- “SCHOLARS” SABOTAGE ANCIENT DOCUMENTS: The Turin Papyrus was prepared during the late 18th Dynasty of the Pharaohs and included lists of all the kings of every dynasty of ancient Egypt through to the 18th Dynasty. This papyrus was found during a temple excavation in the 19th century. The King of Sardinia carefully preserved it and entrusted it to some “scholars” at Turin for translation. The “scholars” destroyed or hid most of it, apparently because it proved the “LONG dynastic” history of Egypt to be UNTRUE!
-The Palermo Stone contained a similar list. “unapproved researchers” can have access to only a few fragments. It is obvious that the stone was broken recently.

Also - see the practice of elongating the skull. It's spread all over the world. Perhaps the ancient "gods" had those elongated skulls, and natives were trying to imitate:
The 1,650-year-old skull of aristocrat that was deliberately deformed to show her family's wealth is unearthed in France
Such an idea: "lets tie the child's head so it elongates!" does not come easily, and everywhere at once:
The practice of intentional cranial deformation is believed to predate written history; it was practised commonly in a number of cultures that are widely separated geographically and chronologically, and still occurs today in a few places, including Vanuatu.

--------------------Postby Roshi » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:52 am
The artificial cranial deformation is spread all over the world, and it's 10 times more strange than the fact that there are similar flood stories all over the world. This not a simple thing to do, it can't just be listened to and passed on like a myth about the flood.
This practice existed in Europe, Africa, the Americas, Oceania. It's source cannot be just an idea everyone got at random - or the slow spreading of the custom from tribe to tribe - that is crazy. Tribes don't just copy customs like that (and this is a radical custom). It's origin must be ancient, in the antediluvian world, that was a global civilization, connected by ships (or flying ships) - and ruled by "gods" with long heads. As we see some pharaohs represented.
Mainstream "explanations":
Skull modification might have been done with the aim of making males look more masculine
Head shaping seems to be a human cultural achievement rooting in the belief in an 'unfinished self
--------------------Postby seasmith » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:04 pm
the Hed¡jet:
A rock-solid clue to the origin of tall head, before coming south to pharaonize Egypt-
click to enlarge

--------------------Postby Roshi » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:00 am
Conclusion: there existed and "antedeluvian" civilization. This civilization was responsible for the pyramids and all other strange ruins. It was lead by red haired "gods" - extraterestrials. People all over the world tried to imitate them by elongating the skulls of children. Look at the representation of ancient pharaohs and their long heads. This civilization was global. Check the stories about **** found in Egyptian mummies, and the red hair of Ramses:
Microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair was originally red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[68] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the god Seth, the slayer of Osiris
Also see the stories about "sons of god" that came to earth and married human women, who then gave birth to "giants".
Genesis 6:4-5 tells of the Nephilim before and after the Flood. According to Genesis 7:23, the Nephilim were destroyed in the Flood, but Nephilim are reported after the Flood

--------------------Postby GaryN » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:18 pm
The Great Mystery raised the sun to its present height and, with an earthquake, destroyed the tower that Montezuma was building into the heavens, in the process changing languages so that people could no longer understand animals or other tribes.
That's interesting, the story of Babel. Now how did that find its way to Arizona, and when?

XX 1st Draft / 2 = [1-2d] The Great Flood: Flood Myths
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:25:05 pm »

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:56 pm
- there's a good chance that Noah and the ark and the animals on it may have been an apparition in the sky and that the "fountains of the great deep" referred to the sky too, since most of the ancients seem to have referred to the sky as the "great deep", also as the ocean. ...

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:08 pm
Refer to Genesis 1:14 [Creation Day 4] for the pre-flood season reference, along with Gen. 2:4-6; and to God's promise in Genesis 8:22 [the post-flood "initiation" of the principle of uniformity] for seasons based on climate/weather.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:13 pm
The chart I posted above is evidence of a flood that occurred at the same time in most of the world, since most of those myths have important elements in common: major flooding and people and sometimes animals being saved in a large vessel.
- Some cultures may have gotten their flood myths from other cultures. And it seems possible that there were vessels in several parts of the world where people and animals were saved from drowning. It's also possible that the vessel containing people and animals was an apparition in the sky as sometimes discussed among Saturn theorists. Gordon is the one who suggested that nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata worldwide were deposited all at once during the Great Flood, and that suggests that where there is no sedimentary rock on continents, there was possibly no major flooding, which means many people and animals may have survived in those locations, which are shown in the map below in the areas of Precambrian surface rock.
Great Flood Deposits
- I think there's a reasonable amount of consensus among Saturn theorists. They seem to agree that the polar planetary conjunction lasted quite a while, then the configuration destabilized and the planets and small objects in the sky appeared to behave chaotically. There were upheavals on Earth and a great flood about 4,500 years ago. Unusual electrical effects were seen. There was also rapid continental drift. An Ice Age followed. The planets soon found their orbital paths around the Sun; the Moon appeared in the sky and the new order prevailed. And civilization rebuilt in Egypt and Sumer firstly.
- Since nearly all the sedimentary strata were deposited by the flood and the fossils formed primarily at that time, the map above shows that there were several places around the world where there was little if any flooding and that's where people, animals and some plants survived best. Due to the fall of many meteors, the world's forests and grasslands caught fire, which led to coal deposits within the sedimentary areas. As Mike Fischer explains at , it makes more sense that continental drift didn't occur until a few hundred years after the Great Flood. And the movement of the northern continents toward the north pole is what froze the animals in the north. Velikovsky had thought that the Earth's axis had shifted, causing Alaska and Siberia to come close to the Arctic Circle, but rapid continental drift explains things much better than does a pole shift.

====================postby Lloyd » Tue May 31, 2016 9:59 am
... Myth is, I believe, a window to early human history, a more intense period of history than we've realized. The myths have their roots in a time of celestial catastrophe, and more often than not the appearance of confusion results from viewing myth as something other than what it is. In the course of cultural evolution and scientific advance, we left behind the fabled "long ago," whose images seemed wholly out of touch with our own world. Yet my personal conviction is that ancient myth, when seen as a symbolic record of earth-shaking events in the sky, will permanently change man's view of his celestial environment.
... Many common themes run through the folklore of diverse cultures. From ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia to the Americas, from India to China, Scandinavia, Africa, and the Pacific Islands, one finds surprisingly similar accounts: celestial temples and cities, a lost paradise or "Garden of Eden," a cosmic mountain, a flaming serpent or dragon in the sky -- and surprisingly similar stories of global calamity ranging from wars of the gods, to a great flood or a devastating rain of fire and gravel. If we'll look at these collective memories carefully, it will change our understanding of the past. Many of the myths concern planets, but the accounts make no sense to us in terms of the movement of these remote bodies today. Why did the planets, these little pinpricks of light, play such a powerful role in the mythical "age of the gods"? Along with others working in this field, I've come to interpret the myths and drawings and ritual practices from a new vantage point. Here is the conclusion in a nutshell: A few thousand years ago, the sky did not look anything like it appears today! Planets hung as gigantic, sometimes terrifying bodies above the ancient stargazers. In periods of stability this involved incredible beauty, but there were also periods of mind-altering catastrophe -- the most traumatic experiences in human history.
- The primary evidence comes from ancient pictures and chronicles, submitted to extensive cross-referencing. By comparing accounts from around the world, one can begin to reconstruct the way the sky looked in ancient times. Is it possible that the myths and pictographs recorded, in a language unique to the starworshippers, large-scale events we've forgotten? By keeping that possibility firmly in mind, the researcher will begin to identify crucial themes of myth -- themes found on every continent, but pointing to an alien sky. As one begins to see the past differently, recent space age discoveries will take on a new significance. Our probes of other planets, such as the Mariner explorations of Mars, the Voyager missions to Jupiter and Saturn, and more recently the Magellan mapping of Venus, the Galileo probe of Jupiter, and the Mars Surveyor have produced many stunning images of the planets and their moons, together with undeniable evidence of large-scale catastrophe within the planetary system. Taken as a whole, these stark profiles of our neighbors challenge traditional theories claiming slow and uneventful planetary evolution. Moreover, a new possibility arises from a reconsideration of the historical material: the possibility that at least some of the horrendous scars on our planetary neighbors resulted from events witnessed by man not all that long ago.
- At the core of the argument is the idea that several planets were once joined in a spectacular gathering of planets, together with gases and dust, smaller moons and cosmic debris. For prehistoric man -- who witnessed all of this -- the effect was a massive celestial display in the northern sky. I've called this celestial assembly "the polar configuration" because in its stable phases it was centered on the north celestial pole. In the beginning, the primary form was the planet Saturn, stationary but immense in the sky. Numerous lines of evidence suggest that Saturn once towered over man and inspired the most dramatic leaps in human imagination the world has ever known. Our work puts a new emphasis on the unusual celestial events reflected in the myths. When you first dive into world mythology, all of your prior training will tell you to dismiss the myth-makers as fabricators or victims of hallucination. But there's another way to see the myths. Ancient man experienced extraordinary events, then strove to remember and to reenact them in every way possible. The result was not only a global mythology, but entirely new forms of human expression. And the whole range of expressions -- sacrifices to the gods, wars of conquest, monumental construction, pictographic representations, and endless celebrations of the lost age of the gods -- left us a massive reservoir of evidence. These highly novel expressions are, in fact, the distinguishing characteristics of the first civilizations.
- The best I can ask for is a willingness to consider an argument. I could show you, for example, that certain celestial images preoccupied ancient man to the point of an obsession. A great cosmic wheel in the sky. The pyramid of the sun. The eye of heaven. Also the ship of heaven, a spiraling serpent, the raging goddess, and four luminous "winds" of the sky. The problem for conventional perspectives is that these images are far, far removed from anything we see in the heavens today. But that is only the beginning of the theoretical challenge. As soon as you realize that far-flung cultures, though employing different symbols, tell a unified story, all of the previous "explanations" of myth collapse. Of course the point will not be proven in a few sentences, and not in a few pages. But the more you learn on this subject, the more compelling the collective memory becomes.
- Yes, we are challenging an intellectual system as a whole. What is at stake here are the pillars of the modern world view. How could it be that the sky has completely changed in a few thousand years? Our textbooks do not talk about such a thing. When instructing us on the history of the solar system, the evolution of our planet, the birth of man, the origins of civilization, no one speaks of an unstable solar system, of interplanetary upheaval, or of wholesale changes in the celestial order. When the popular astronomer Carl Sagan presented his impressive exposition on the nature of things, called Cosmos, he didn't ask if we may have misunderstood our past. Rather, Sagan's expressed view -- the official view of science for many years -- fits comfortably within the textbooks on astronomy, geology, biology, anthropology, and ancient history. When we launched the U.S. Space program in the late 50s, then devoted billions of dollars to exploring neighboring planets, no one thought to ask if the planets might have followed different courses in earlier times, whether recent disturbances of the planetary system might have left their tell-tale marks on these remote bodies. So when our cameras and measuring devices reached the planets Mars and Venus, and the Voyager probes provided spectacular glimpses of Jupiter and Saturn -- well, we were left with a hundred enigmas and unanswered questions. And yes, there's a certain irony to this. The prevailing view of myth proclaims that, through science, man escaped the bonds of superstition and make believe. But now, in the twentieth century -- the age of science and reason -- it is myth and symbol that will provide the lost key to the past, the key to a new understanding of the solar system and of human origins. At the heart of this claim is a bedrock principle: the myth-making age arose from the human urge to REMEMBER [for future generations, because the sky had changed]; hence, the patterns of myth are the patterns of human memory. And if it can be rigorously demonstrated from cross-cultural comparison that numerous DIFFERENT words and symbols and mythical themes actually point to the SAME HIGHLY UNUSUAL EVENTS, then the patterns of memory will carry more weight than science has ever considered.
- Each of these impressive scholars came to discern certain unified layers of myth, layers our traditional cynicism about myth never anticipated. Perhaps the greatest contribution of these pioneers is their acknowledgment that the common view -- seeing myth as random absurdity -- will not suffice to explain the subject. I think the late Joseph Campbell has done the most to awaken popular interest in myth, and he is one of my own favorites too. Following a comparative approach, Campbell brought to light quite a number of global themes. He noted, for example, the myths of the central sun, the world mountain, the flowering of creation through sacrifice, the birth of the hero, the terrible goddess, and so on. Any one of these themes, when explored in its full context, could open the door to incredible discovery. But Campbell, like so many others, stopped short of asking the most important question of all: if the celestial references of the myths are absent today, is it possible that they were present in a former time?
- The mythmakers are telling us we've forgotten the very thing they regarded as most vital -- in fact, the source of all meaning to the first starworshippers. We've forgotten the age of the gods. We've assumed that as long as man has journeyed on our planet the world looked and behaved almost exactly as it does today. And that is the fundamental error of modern perception. The answer to that error is to re-envision the past. With the help of the ancient chroniclers, its time to bring the forgotten dramas -- both the beauty, and the nightmare scenarios -- into the light of day.

====================postby Lloyd » Tue May 31, 2016 10:06 am
... CARDONA: ... If the Saturnian system was NOT captured by the Sun, the advent of day and night would have commenced at the clearing of the Saturnian nebular cloud within which the Saturnian system was enshrouded. In any case, whether the Saturnian system was, or was not, captured by the Sun, the Saturnian nebular, or placental, cloud would still have shielded the Sun from view until after Saturn's flare-up which, among other things, blew the placental cloud out of existence.
... ROBERT PREVIOUSLY: At what point does massive flooding come into the scenario? Do you believe that great quantities of water fell from the sky and/or world pillar in conjunction with the break-up?
- CARDONA: >From the world pillar during the break-up, definitely ... [over not] even a century.
- Excerpts from Dwardu Cardona's SIS Silver Jubilee Paper
- Once again, I cannot here present the entire string of evidential sources which attest to the whirling motion of the cosmic pillar. Instead I will merely present the opinion of four authorities on the subject. DC Santillana and von Dechend are two of many who came to the conclusion that the [visible Earth's] axis did twist and turn -- although they seemed somewhat unsure of whether it did so slowly or rapidly -- even if to them the axis was anything but an actual physical entity. So, incidentally, did Elmer Suhr when he speaks of the 'whirling cosmic column' and 'the whirling column of the cosmos.' In fact, Suhr goes on to stress: 'It is especially important to think of the cosmic column not as a static post but as a constantly whirling crucible...' Talbott, of course, also recognized this fact when he wrote that 'the cosmic mountain in many creation epics is presented as a churning, serpentine column rising along the world axis...' t is more than obvious from descriptions of the Saturnian axis, as well as prehistoric Petroglyphs, that the polar column was a visible entity rather than a deduced abstraction. This was so much so that, in some cases, the axis was even pictured as a ladder reaching to the Saturnian sun. ... It is ... this bolus flow that would have given the planetary tornado, or Rankine vortex, its serpentine quality.
- AMY: Cardona proposes, if the polar column were actually a colossal tornado, that the Saturn theory demands that this, too, should be part of the mytho-historical record. ... [T]he tornado would have sucked large amounts of waters from the Earth and ancient man should have been aware of this, if not from observing the column itself, then at least from observing what happened when the column was severed.
- CARDONA: [A]mong the Australian Aborigines, the great python is the most impressive representative of the polar column. It is therefore significant that this python is not only believed to tower up to the level of the clouds, but that he also 'brings about rain and flood.' The Efe pygmies of the Ituri forest tell of a deluge of water which gushed forth as a mighty river when their version of the Cosmic Tree, which was the polar column, was felled. Similarly, the Arawak Indians of the [Guianas] tell of a wondrous tree which Sigu cut down. From its stump, water gushed out in such quantity as to cause a deluge. This tale is also found among the traditions of the Cuna, who tell of their mischief-maker, the Tapir, chopping down the Saltwater Tree from which salt water gushed out to form the oceans of the world. Thus, Velikovsky was correct when he surmised that the water of the Deluge would have been salty, but not, as he believed, because the salt, or at least its chlorine content, originated from Saturn. The water was salty because it came from the same oceanic water the vortex had sucked up in the first place.
- AMY: Cardona moves on to the next demand of the Saturn Theory. If the Deluge was [partly] the result of the collapse of a colossal tornado situated in the north, then the mytho-historical record must also contain this information. And it does. Among others, three American Indian tribes, the Wintus, the Wichita, and the Pawnee, tell different legends of the flood, but in each case the deluge arrives from the north.
- CARDONA: But what of the hard sciences? Is the evidence there? Once again, I can only mention a few items here, but that an enormous flood had once swept down from the north to scour the land surface of North America has been suggested by J. Harlan Bretz. So, similarly, with C. Warren Hunt who speaks of evidence pointing to a flood from the north, excavating the land as it went before it emptied into Lake Bonneville. That Lake Bonneville itself also burst its bounds to cause a secondary flood has been documented by Robert Jarred and Harold Malde. What is of additional interest here is that the area once covered by this lake constitutes a vast salt deposit 100 square miles [= ten miles square] in extent. Similar signs of a vast scouring flood from the north have also been discovered in Siberia. ... [T]his flood was [not] due to the catastrophic melting of the northern ice cap at the end of the Ice Age [since, at that] time, the northern ice cap had not yet been formed.
... [T]he Indic myth from the Mahabharata and the Bhagavata Purana [says]: In an effort to produce ... divine nectar, both gods and demons used Mount Mandara as a churning stick. Winding the serpent Vasuki, [or] Ananta, around Mount Mandara, ... depicted not in the form of a mountain, but in that of a pillar ... the gods (at one end) and the demons (at the other) grasped hold of Vasuki by the head and tail and, pulling him back and forth, were able to rotate Mount Mandara fast enough to whisk the sea into an ocean of milk from which amrita was produced. ... [T]hus ... the mythic World Mountain and the Axis Mundi were one and the same. In fact, it has long been known to Indologists that Mount Mandara stood for the axis of the world. ... In Vasuki we recognize the bolus flow wrapped around the central vortex -- and here it is interesting to note that this entity was 'associated with the north,' thus locating the entire action in that locality. Finally, in the divinities' churning by pulling at the coiled Vasuki this way and that way, an echo is retained of the clockwise/counterclockwise rotation of the bolus flow as described by Jueneman.
... The elements contained in the myth of the churning of the ocean must not be thought of as uniquely Hindu in origin. In the Hindu myth, for instance, we see that Mandara was placed on the back of a tortoise. In Chinese mythology, it is Shang-ti who is depicted as standing on the celestial tortoise, while the serpent was said to have encircled the tortoise. Shang-ti's title was The Holy and Propitious Prince of the North Pole, who is usually represented as surrounded by a halo, both of which have special meaning to this study. It is also noteworthy that the symbolism of the tortoise and serpent goes at least as far back as the Han dynasty and was used as an emblem for the northern region of the world. More than that, as Lord of the Centre, Shang-ti was also revered as Huang-ti, who is perhaps better known as the Yellow Lord or Yellow Emperor. The Yellow Emperor has long been acknowledged to be an avatar of Saturn. And in the Japanese Kojiki we learn of the Heavenly Jeweled Spear which joined heaven to Earth and which acted as the churning stick responsible for the surfacing of the mythical ... island of Onogoro [in the sky].

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:13 am
- It's certainly possible that there are or were physical ETs who planted us on the Earth and saved enough living things in times of cataclysms to repopulate the planet afterwards. But I'm inclined more to think that it's angels who do those things. There seems to be more evidence that angels or spirits exist than that ETs exist. The evidence of UFOs etc could actually be evidence of angels, as well as mankind's own recent inventions to some extent. Where the Bible speaks about God, it seems to mean angels of God. For example, the beings who visited Abraham before the destruction of Sodom and Gemorah were referred to as Lord, men and angels. The story of Moses and the burning bush where God spoke to him is repeated in the Book of Acts, I think, and there it's stated, I think by Stephen, that it was an angel who spoke to Moses. So I think the Bible only refers to the doings of angels, not really to those of "God". If I were an advanced being, I think I'd certainly prefer to have an immortal spirit body, than a mortal physical one, if I could manage it. I do believe in holistic, infinitely caring consciousness by the way.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:17 pm
Gordon, do you think sedimentary rock strata locations indicate where the Great Flood occurred? And do you think where there are no sedimentary rock strata, the Flood did not occur? Here's a map of Precambrian strata locations in a light pinkish color, while sedimentary locations are light greenish:
The site is:
The main locations where Flood deposits are minimal or none are in much of eastern Canada & Greenland, Antarctica, eastern South America, southwestern Africa and other spotted locations in Eurasia & Australia.
If the Flood was not significant in those areas, then organisms could have probably survived there without an ark.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:40 pm
I say that the frequently fossiliferous Cambrian and "above" sequences were deposited during the flood, in at least three major stages marked by the PreCambrian/Cambrian ["explosion"], PT [Permian/Triassic extinctions] and KT [Cretaceous/Tertiary extinctions] stratigraphic boundaries found globally. Add the Pliocene/Pleistocene groupings as a 4th major ending event [the Ice Epoch].
No, I would not say that there was no major flooding where there are no sedimentary rocks, nor that possibly living things survived on land not flooded. I do hold that some sea creatures survived the flood, as there is no indication in the biblical record of Noah being commissioned to save them; and in geology we find that fossilized sea creatures are found generally buried in strata beneath the fossils of land creatures -- this "first burial" trend would be expected since their habitats are "lower" than those of the land creatures. Standard model "shallow sea" explanations are to me indicators of creatures washed over onto and buried on the ancient continental shelves or lowland areas, which could be nearly anywhere on the ancient supercontinent before the formation of the boundary [brake] mountain ranges.
The Precambrian rock areas may have not been flooded or were washed clean as they were being uplifted toward the end of the flood into the exposed areas they now are found. There are no indicators from fossil evidence or otherwise that these "shield" regions were areas where anything survived the cataclysm; however the lack of fossils and the metamorphic/intrusive morphologies of Precambrian sequences in general do place them as being formed before the deluge, possibly primordial, or as vestiges of the original uplift of the continents above the primordial sea.
Other areas where there are no [exposed] sedimentary sequences are regions of "recent" [last stages of flood and post-flood] volcanism, so these would be an "afterthought" of the cataclysm, although the causation of these later events was definitely put in place by the flood apparati. Hence volcanic arcs are found adjacent/parallel to boundary ranges and trenches, etc. and/or other stressed areas of the continents.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:39 pm
Since the Great Flood likely deposited nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata, why did it not deposit anything in the numerous shield regions? Since Noah's ark is likely to have referred to the Saturn Configuration, the actual survival of humans and animals would be likely due to one or two of two possibilities:
1. the Flood did not cover the entire surface of the Earth (some or all of the shield regions);
2. humans in many locations independently took to boats and ships for the duration of the Flood and animals lived on some of the ships and/or on floating mats of logs and debris.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:03 am
The shield regions are Pre-Cambrian exposures that do show some large-scale erosive/depositional action, eg. drumlins on the Canadian shield in Ontario; just because there are no major stratigraphic sequences doesn't mean they were untouched by flood tides or currents.

--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:16 am
... My views? Multiple catastrophes with the last major one approx 12,000 years ago. The last of the lesser approx 1200BCE. I'm more interested in the human side of things rather than the Earth/science side.
- ... If there was a 'global' flood then it would have been 12000 ya. It can't have been either the MBA or LBA collapses as there were still several peoples, eg, Egyptians, Indians etc who didn't completely collapse. ...
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:37 am
... (As I see it) Venus and Mars were definitely involved in the LBA collapse as were Jupiter and the Sun. Homer makes this clear. Whether Venus was involved in any of the previous incidents is hard to say partly because it is difficult to know in which time period a story takes place.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:44 pm
... Nanodiamond-Rich Layer across Three Continents Consistent with Major Cosmic Impact at 12,800 Cal BP

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:12 am
As for tsunami sediments, this objection against tsunami action is not well thought out; consider this view:
A tsunami is simply a water delivery system. Whatever materials are there to be delivered, and whatever organisms or objects are there to be buried, these are what will appear in the resulting deposits. Remember that the deluge was not just a passive submergence of land, but rather powerful currents flowing over the land and eventually laying their deposits over vast sections of the low topography. Today's tsunamis operate in low coastal areas, washing in and back out again not able to pass higher ground. A different nature of deposit will be left in this scenario.

XX 1st Draft / 1 = [1-2c] The Great Flood: Rock Strata Formation
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:21:19 pm »

- Earth's atmosphere was likely thicker before the Great Flood cataclysm, so that the stars were not visible. Only the nearby planets and the Sun were visible. Earth had no visible Moon initially.

====================postby Lloyd » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:43 pm
- 1. How did sedimentary rock strata form? ... The conventional theory seems to be full of absurdities. The Great Flood theory seems to be most logical to me, combined with the Shock Dynamics theory.
- The conventional theory is that strata and fossils take thousands to millions of years to form. But delicate fossils and large ones could not form in conventional flood or sedimentation events. I don't think it's even proven that conventional sedimentation forms solid strata. There has to be a lot of lime or other cementing agent available to form rock strata. I don't know if rock can form under water until the water is drained away. Most rock strata cover hundreds or thousands of square miles. There would have to be a lot of very huge lakes that filled with sediment. The sediment would have had to move over the entire lake bottom with nearly equal thickness, whereas normally sediment only accumulates near the mouths of rivers or creeks. Erosion would have to bring in just sand with some lime for thousands of years, then bring in just lime for thousands of years, and then just mud for many more thousands of years, because each rock type is usually separate in strata several inches to feet thick. All of the mountains would be eroded down in a few million years, so where would the older strata come from? Would something keep building up mountains to get eroded back down? Is anything besides a Shock Dynamics event capable of building up mountains?
- Creation scientists have shown that a global flood would be capable of cavitating the edges of a supercontinent to form continent-wide strata of sand, lime and mud sediments via tsunamis, caused by a large body temporarily orbiting the Earth on a highly elliptical orbit, which would also fossilize large and delicate organisms quickly.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:08 pm
... The Asteroid Bombardment caused the breakup of the Supercontinent and the rapid movement of the continents apart to near their present positions. The movement of continents largely caused the Great Flood tsunamis. The Great Flood caused Extinctions and Fossil formation. The slowing of Continental Drift by friction caused Mountain Uplift and Vulcanism. Receding Flood waters caused massive Erosion and the heated oceans caused evaporation and snowfall at higher latitudes, which was Glaciation in the one and only Ice Age.
- [Sedimentary Rock Origin] Great Flood Videos
I was having a question lately about where all the sand, mud and lime would have come from if the sedimentary rock layers on continents were all formed during the Great Flood. After hearing the following video explain it, it seems it should have been obvious: they came largely from the seafloors. I wasn't thinking of the possibility that the oceans could have been stirred up enough to move much of the sediments from the seafloors onto the land.
Here are my Notes on the Flood Video called The Worldwide Flood - Geologic Evidences:
3'37": Evidence: If there was a Great Flood, the ocean waters could have flooded the continents, bringing along sand, mud and ocean creatures.
5'20": Tapeats Sandstone, Redwall Limestone and Coconino Sandstone belong to 5 megasequences of strata that cover much of North America.
5'42": Tapeats covers about 2/3 of U.S. and part of western Canada. It's also found in Israel.
6'24": Redwall having same features and fossils is found in AZ, TN, PA, England, Himalayas near Nepal,
7'00": Cretacious chalk, over 1,000 ft thick in places, is found in Ireland, S. England, Europe, Egypt, Turkey, Western Australia and in the U.S. from NE to TX.
8'40": Coconino, 300 ft thick, has crossbedding diagonal to the horizontal strata formed from underwater sand dune waves with the tops washed off.
10'53": Coconino covers from AZ to KS to TX. The sand waves started at 60 ft high each in water moving 3-5 mph. Coconino was deposited in a few days. The entire Grand Canyon strata were deposited in a few months.
12'54": Ayers Rock in central Australia is sandstone with nearly vertical strata with grains of different sizes, angular and some delicate, meaning they were deposited rapidly (from 60 miles away).
15'57": Ayers sandstone is over 18,000 ft thick. It was deposited within hours by turbidity currents moving up to 70 mph.
20'00": Coconino is over Hermit shale. Shale is hardened mud. Coconino sand came from Canada
22'00": Navajo sandstone in s. Utah lies over Coconino. Navajo sand contains zircons and quartz eroded from mountains of PA and NY.
23'00": Sand waves are direction indicators, indicating that Flood waters flowed during the Paleozoic over the Americas from n.e. to s.w. The same direction of flow occurred on the other continents too.
Part 2:
3'58": The main strata of the Grand Canyon contain marine fossils. Redwall limestone is in the middle, containing many sea animals. It's 7 ft thick and over 180 miles wide.
8'20": In France there are similar sea animals buried with amphibians, spiders, scorpions, millipedes, insects and reptiles. There's similar mixture in CO along with birds etc. Similar in WY.
11'00": In Tasmania an 80 ft thick stratum contains broken shells, a toothed whale and a possum.
17'12": 7 trillion tons of vegetation are buried in the world's coal beds. Same coal beds in the U.S. extend also from England to Russia.
... Delicate creatures are preserved. Some fish are preserved right after eating another fish, or giving birth, as evidence of rapid burial.
Video: The Mystery of Coal:
This says coal consists largely of pieces of tree bark, wood, leaves etc. Peat bogs don't contain that, so coal doesn't come from there, despite the popular theory. But in Spirit Lake after the Mt. St. Helens eruption there was found layers of tree bark on the bottom, while the tree logs were floating on top.
Video: Extraordinary Evidence that Dinosaurs Lived with Man:
It says 95% of fossils are from marine invertibrates. 4.5% are from plants and algae. Vertibrates make up .0125%. This isn't widely mentioned, because it gives the impression of a Flood Deposit.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:59 pm
Electrical Formation
Hi, Brigit. Have you read Charles' papers at He has the best, most detailed explanations of the electrical formation and features of planets, stars and galaxies that I know of. Do you know of any better explanations than his for any cosmic or geological phenomenon?
Sandstone Formation
Charles' papers at the link above explain the electrical forces involved in Tides, Earthquakes, Vulcanism, and Crater Formation, which helped shape the Earth's surface. But the sedimentary rock strata were most likely formed by the Flood, not by "electric" forces primarily. Conventional geology says much of the sandstone was formed from desert sand dunes, but detailed studies show that they were formed under water, like limestone and shale. The paper, Startling evidence for Noah’s Flood: Footprints and sand ‘dunes’ in a Grand Canyon sandstone! at shows in detail why it is rather certain that sandstone was formed under water. Read especially the sections called "Those footprints" and "Desert ‘dunes’?" They explain that footprints in dunes do not show toe prints or distinct features, but only depressions. And the angles of dunes are different from sand waves underwater. That's partly how they could determine the sandstone formed under water.

Webpage: Startling evidence for Noah’s Flood: Footprints and sand ‘dunes’ in a Grand Canyon sandstone!

=========================Postby Lloyd » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:45 pm
Gordon, are you open to the possibility, as Mike Fischer concludes, that mountain uplift and the Ice Age did not occur till a few hundred years after the Great Flood? The deaths of Arctic animals by sudden freezing, due to continental drift moving two continents near to the north pole, and causing mountain uplift at the same time, seems to require that the Flood, which deposited nearly all of the fossil-bearing strata, occurred enough time earlier for the animals to have repopulated the Arctic region while it was still warm. I know you say Noah was said to have witnessed mountain uplift, but could that have been minor hills, or conflation of stories?

Gordon & Brigit, The following seems to show that the 12 km deep Kola borehole project found mostly igneous rock nearly all the way down. There are some thin layers of sedimentary rock down to 6 km and a very thin layer at 7 km. There may be some melted metamorphic rock that was formerly sedimentary down to 7 km. Then it's just metamorphic rock that was formerly igneous, i.e. granite below 7 km (or below 4.4 miles). Gordon, do you have comments on this?
Data on the Kola Superdeep Borehole
0-1k) Augite Diabases with Pyroxene & Porphyrites
----- ([Igneous] Diabase = subvolcanic rock equivalent to volcanic basalt or plutonic gabbro)
0>1k, 2>4k) Basic Tuffs & Tuffites
----- ([Igneous] predominantly pyroclasts = volcanic ash)
0>2k) Phyllites, Silkstones with Tuff layers
----- ([Metamorphic/Sedimentary] from shale, silt etc)
0>3k) Gabbro-Diabases
----- ([Igneous] See Diabase above)
0>3k) Laminated Sandstones
----- ([Sedimentary] from sand)
0>3-5k) Achnolitic Diabases
----- ([Igneous] See Diabase above)
0>5+6k) Dolomites, polynistic Sandstones
----- ([Sedimentary] from lime & sand)
4>5k) Sericitic Schists
----- ([Metamorphic] possibly from melted/hardened sand or shale)
3>5-6k) Metadiabases
----- ([Metamorphic] diabase from [Igneous]: see Diabase above)
5>6-7k) Diabase Porphyrites & Schists
----- ([Igneous] See Diabase above; & [Metamorphic] see Schists above)
6>7k) Conglomerates
----- ([Sedimentary] from cemented rounded rocks, larger than sand grains)
6>7-12k) Muscovite-biotite-plagioclase gniesses with high alumina content minerals
-AND Epidote-biotite-plagioclase gniesses with amphibolites, amphibolite schists & ultramafites
----- ([Metamorphic] from Igneous granite or Sedimentary rock)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:51 am
The bore hole sampling confirms my assertion that the strata below Cambrian are primordial, ie. original crust modified when the first continent raised up above the global sea in Day 2, an event which would have been accompanied by erosion and initial depositional sequences, along with igneous upheaval and intrusive/granitic formation, and "country" rock metamorphism due to pressure and heat. Since life first appeared on the surface of this continent, it is expected that there would be limited fossils found in the "surface" layers of the "Pre-Cambrian".

I do not believe there is any physical evidence for human survival prior to the current era, but archaeology documents migrational patterns [eg. "Clovis" group] from the middle eastern sector to all other parts of the world.
Remember, fossil humans are a testament of death, not life.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:00 pm
Perhaps I should have said "genographics" instead of archaeology... I think the two disciplines are mutually supportive, however. Have you read this:
The Genographics Project
Also, who said humans all died by drowning, or that they died simultaneously?
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:56 pm
Come on now Webolife, you are clutching at straws here. That part of E Africa is about as far from Sumer as I am in the UK. You agree with their migration map while dismissing their timeframe. The history (and archaeology) of the Middle East is a story of peoples entering the region not leaving it (unless they get kicked out).
I thought that this 'out of Africa' theory had died long ago. It is based on the premise that the oldest remains found to date are in fact the remains of the oldest 'humans'. It aint necessarily so - especially as they have not searched anywhere near the majority of the planet's land area (and then there is the lands that have become submerged and the remains which didn't get fossilised or got fossilised but didn't survive to the present).
DNA is interpreted through the lens of Darwin's theory which I believe you do not subscribe to. I have no time for Darwin nor do I have any for the DNA circus. They have been doing 'science by press-release' for decades now, hardly a week goes by without some headline grabbing fantasy.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:25 pm
Perhaps it was careless of me to reference that National Geographic site. My interest is primarily their unification of the migrating people groups to a relatively small number of "clans", and the general shape of their migration pattern.
I actually agree with you about the East Africa vs. Sumer dichotomy; I see Sumer as the central distribution region. I also agree with you that the rough and presumptive radiocarbon and genetic drift timeframes are off. I have a "What if..." attitude toward the use of the biblical record as a framework for earth history, and have built my alternative modeling on that premise. I see value in other cultural mythologies; but that is your realm of expertise, not mine, so for now I am content to read your intelligent synopses and critiques, and see what new info I can glean from that.
My finding is that there are relatively few [perhaps dozens of] good examples of fossilized pre-Flood humans [or from another approach, few of them got fossilized], and how they died would be largely a historical tradition, rather than a certainty based on geologic evidence beyond that their fossils are generally found in sedimentary deposits. You have undoubtedly found from my previous posts that I view the flood as a complex of highly hazardous happenings, not the least of which may have been death by drowning.

____________________Postby webolife » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:51 pm
- Drift is more the result of a drainage process than of a deluvial one. By which I mean [and claim] that the underlying sedimentary formations were eroded by waters draining off in the last stages of the flood event(s).
The materials largely derive from the underlying formations, unlike the case of erratics which are carried by [probably] continental glaciation from a more distant formation, eg. granite from the Canadian Cascades landed in the Willamette Valley in Oregon. So in the case of drift found on facing sides of separated continents, I suggest that the various agents of the flood [not only the tsunami action which you have taken to focusing on] laid the underlying sediments in a similar fashion on the lowlands of the [two] spreading continental masses, then the later drainage action left the drift as a superficial feature, after the majority of the spreading was done.
- I have little reason to doubt that major continental glaciation happened across the young continents in the later stage(s) of the flood and afterwards, and that other drainage related phenomena also occurred at this time, ie. at the end of and after the flooding. Glacial advance seems a good mechanism for the creation of drumlins, striations and such, while glacial retreat seems a suitable [and observable] mechanism for the deposit of kames and eskers and other types of mounds, as well as the very common and relatively superficial outwash deposits [till]. Drumlins are not dunes. Windblown deposits are a result of the global wind development that happened after [as a result of] the flood dynamics, while the potholes and coulees of the Pacific Northwest [Eastern Washington] happened during the later retreat of the glaciation, with the breakage of an ice dam at glacial Lake Missoula. I place the retreat of the glaciation largely in the few centuries after the flood, and after the continental drift surge.
**LK NOTE: See Carlson re ice dam theory is wrong.

XX 1st Draft / 3 = [1-2b] The Great Flood: Asteroid Bombardment
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:18:20 pm »

- Can you explain though how Earth could get hit by asteroids for 5 months? Did the Earth move through the asteroid belt? ...

... I believe a large planetoid or comet came into tidal proximity to the earth causing widespread upheaval and accretion of mass to the earth in the form of the "matar" -- the Chicxulub was just one of many; in my imagination, the body would have broken up and send bits tumbling to earth.
=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:35 pm
- Asteroid Bombardment
- Webb said: Astroblemes ... can be associated stratum by stratum with the geologic column from the Cambrian forward ... [but none] in the Pre-Cambrian
- It would be good to have a table of astroblemes with coordinates and strata locations. Here's a list in French:

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:34 pm
- Looks like this site may be the best list online of global astroblemes etc: It shows Ages attributed to each crater, which I assume means what strata they are located in. I looked through the numbers a bit and they seem to cover a long period of Ages, which I think means most of the sedimentary strata on the continents, as Gordon said.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:31 pm
- The list does include some Precambrian aged sites, which is convenient since in my scenario, the initial "matar" impacts would have been on the "Precambrian" pre-flood supercontinent. ... long epochs are the backbone of the standard model, yet virtually all the [non-existent] evidence for them lies in the hiatus between otherwise conformable strata!

LK: Do you think it's possible that the apparent Asteroid Bombardment (matar) during the Great Flood was due to Earth crossing the Asteroid Belt? What would preclude that?
- Don't you think the Bombardment would have caused the flood and continental drift?
GW: I think the flood and drift event [singular] was directly connected with earth interacting with planetoidal bodies. A glimpse at the the earth's placement with respect to the present known asteroids shows that no exotic explanation about the earth's transposition is necessary [like Earth crossing the Asteroid Belt? - LK]. Several possibilities here:
a. A planet swung by Earth (perhaps Venus, which is currently in a tidally phased rotation pattern with Earth), knocking Earth's rotation into a wobble
b. A planet swept through the asteroids, disrupting whatever was there and sending bits streaming by Earth
c. A comet collided with the earth breaking up as it neared, causing the preponderance of the "matar" to fall over the 5 month time
LK: Wouldn't the same event have been the cause of the bombardment on the Moon and possibly on Mars and many other bodies? So, if so, that suggests that they all went through the Asteroid belt to me. Not you?
GW: Why not? My studies have mainly been terrestrial, but the evidence abounds elsewhere in the solar system! But again, the asteroids are really all around us, and a major disruption in the belt could have affected earth as I suggested, but that's just one of many possible scenarios.
CC: I'm not sure I agree that the flood was caused by ET events, but I agree that something came through and upset a lot of apple carts. Recently I've been studying the similarity between the mares on the Moon and on Mars. I rather think that both of them got re-melted by something, instead of the mares filling up with lava flows. But the chance of two different bodies undergoing the exact same process, at exactly the same time (i.e., toward the end of the Late Heavy Bombardment) is relatively slight. So I think that something triggered them both. It could have been the thermalization of the impacts of the Bombardment, or gravitational deformation from a large body passing by.
- By "Late Heavy Bombardment", I'm just referring to all of the impact craters on the Moon and on Mars, and the fact that there are many of them in the highlands, but only a few in the lowlands. This means that the lowlands on both the Moon and on Mars were both molten at the same time.
LK: What's the evidence for melting on the mares and on Mars?
CC: It's just the flatness of the mares, and the absence of source volcanoes.
LK: Do you know of evidence of melting in the Moon rocks?
CC: Ummm... I don't know. What would be the difference between my "melting" and the volcanism in the standard model?
LK: Conventional vulcanism comes through volcanoes, except for flood basalts.
CC: So in megaflow eruptions, there isn't going to be an extinct volcano left afterwards, is that correct?
GW: The highly fluid nature of flood basalt is such that no cones were formed and the originating vents are left submerged and invisible to the investigator.
CC: Gordon, what would be the make/break telltale signs that the mares on the Moon and on Mars would definitely be megaflows, and not just general re-melting of the bodies due to some other energy source (such as tidal deformation)?
GW: An astronaut geologist needs to observe the basalt flows to see columnar jointing below and vesicular pattern above, then I would know the maria are mega flows; until then I'm open to any good explanations, such as yours:-)
CC: Is the columnar jointing a result of crystalization, or is it something else?
GW: Cooling of the flow is approximately uniform over the entire surface of the flow, causing a shrinkage pattern that produces the roughly hexagonal columns. The sides of the columns are conchoidal, but the tops are relatively flat where the top part of the flow [vesicular basalt] gets eroded away. Since there is no erosion on the Moon, this structure would have to be exposed in profile somewhere for the astro-geologist to see.
LK: Aren't there closeup images of any of the mares, or aren't there even Apollo landing sites there, which would be clear enough to tell what caused the flat surface?
CC: It sounds like the make/break evidence that I'm looking for would then be just the vesicular pattern. Is basalt too low in viscosity for this? In other words, I can understand air bubbles being trapped in felsic magma, and still being in the ejecta, leaving such characteristics after cooling. But what if the lava had plenty of time to out-gas -- would it still be vesicular?10
GW: Right, no it would not be vesicular, but the rapidly cooling top surface of each flow is more brittle than the columnar "underbelly"... The analogy I use for students is like pouring coke into a glass, then rapidly freezing the glass...the crystals would be characteristic in the bottom of the glass, but full of airpockets above. This is a different picture than what you are describing I think?
CC: Well, I was just trying to see if there was any way of ruling out any of the various possibilities. BTW, as you know, without much of an atmosphere on either the Moon or Mars, the lava wouldn't have cooled quickly, because there wouldn't have been much thermal conduction, nor much convection to transport the heat away. So it sounds like the lava (if that's what it was) would have had plenty of time to out-gas.
GW: I agree with you on the convection point. Regardless, the columnar pattern should show up if it's basalt.
LK: Charles said the Moon is made of granite, like the Earth's continents.
CC: Actually, they have found both granite and basalt on the Moon, is that correct?
- BTW, I'm currently reconsidering whether or not I actually believe that the Moon impacted the Earth. The reason is because of the remelting that occurred at the same time as Mars (if that's what it was). This would mean that the Moon couldn't have been involved in such a catastrophic collision, or it would have been totally remelted, and there wouldn't be any highlands left.
LK: Charles, you said in your papers that Earth's and the Moon's granites are a lot alike, more than any other planets. Didn't you? What would account for that?
CC: Yes, but I'm just no longer sure that it's necessarily quite that simple. If there are basalts on the Moon, especially in the mares, then it isn't that the Moon is made entirely of the same stuff as the Earth's continents.
LK: Maybe Earth's basalt and granite ALL came from the protoMoon.
CC: Yes, that's possible.
GW: I'm on the side of Charles' mind change; I don't accept the collision theory of Moon and Earth, nor for that matter the ejected Moon theory.
LK: I linked to some lunar images. Check them out a few lines below. See the links?
- Charles, do you have a very clear idea how a close approach between "planets" would cause melting of the surfaces?
CC: I don't know what you mean by "very clear", but I was thinking that the thermalization of tidal deformation might do it. This is generally considered to be elastic deformation, which doesn't produce heat, but in my model, it is driving telluric currents, which could remelt the crust.
LK: Okay, that makes plenty of sense.
- And could Mars have approached closely to the Moon, as EU theorists sometimes speculate, and could that produce melted surfaces?
GW: Due to the tidally syncopated rotations of Earth and Venus, I suspect this was the near approach involved, which could have thrown Mars into its highly elliptical orbit as well as disrupting both the surfaces of Mars and the Moon.
LK: Gordon, can you tell anything about melting from this lunar mare image?
Or this one?
GW: Not really...

XX 1st Draft / 1 = [1-2a] The Great Flood
« on: January 07, 2017, 07:15:51 pm »
[1-2a] The Great Flood

001. Deserts from nuclear war?
002. Former civilizations in Antarctica, Greenland
003. Ancient underground tunnels useful today?
004. Ancient micro technology
005. World maps before "discoverers" came
006. Changes in maps
007. Pre-Aboriginal paintings in Australia
008. Tut's gold from Australia?
009. Micro technology
010. The Black Knight
011. Ancient Chinese were that "mysterious" race?
012. Ancient voyage India to Rome?
013. Tunnels explored to the end?
015. The catacombs of Rome
016. Help! No ancient tunnel pictures!
017. Ancient civilizations and God
018. Religious beliefs of ancient races
019. Ancient giants - mere fantasy?
301. Earth's last flip-over
302. Sun and earth
303. The continents divided
304. Fitting of the continents
305. How Antarctica became frozen

=========================Postby Lloyd » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:55 am
- Flood Deposited Strata. The Noah's Flood paper says the sedimentary rock strata consist of 5 megasequences, where the strata are conforming, meaning they're parallel to each other like pages in a book, and there are 6 unconformities between them, where strata immediately above and below each of them don't conform, apparently because there was time for some erosion to occur or the lower strata shifted or something. The theory is that all of the conforming layers in each megasequence were deposited about the same time by a 2,500 m high series of tsunami waves, which calmed down for a few weeks, then happened again 6 times, about once a month, so each megasequence was followed by a pause, then another tsunami. Berthault's experiments prove this is possible, if not probable. The strata were deposited wet and it took many years to dry out and harden. The tsunamis may have been caused by gravitational attraction to a large body that was circling the Earth about once a month on an elliptical orbit. The best candidates seem to be the Moon, or Mars, or Venus.
- Either the animals immediately after the Flood survived on Noah's ark or a space ship or something, or the Flood failed to cover some of the land. As Mike Fischer says, the strata were deposited during the Flood, but the mountain ranges didn't form till a few centuries later, when the Shock Dynamics impact broke up the supercontinent and caused some flooding too. As Gordon says, the Grand Canyon eroded soon after the main Flood when the two large lakes there, Grand Lake and Hopi Lake, drained through the canyon. When the Shock Dynamics event occurred later, the strata were folded into mountain ranges by compressive heating after they were already somewhat hardened.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:57 pm
Flood Legends From Around the World
I rearranged them to show them from East to West and North to South, pretty much.
D = Destruction by Water
. --- G = (God) Divine Cause
. --- ----- W = Warning Given
. --- --- --- --- H = Humans Spared
. --- --- --- --- ----- A = Animals Spared
. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- V = Saved in a Vessel
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 32 U.S.A.- Hawaiians
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 33 Vanualu- Melanesians
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 14 French Polynesia- Raiatea
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 13 Fiji- Walavu-levu tradition
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 26 New Zealand- Maori
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 01 Australia- Kurnai
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 05 Borneo- Sea Dayak
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 09 China- Lolo
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 23 Malay Peninsula- Jekun
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 34 Vietnam- Bahnar
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 06 Burma- Singpho
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 18 India- Andaman Islands
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 19 India- Bhil
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 20 India- Kamar
D --- . --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 28 Russia- Vogul
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 21 Iran- Zend-Avesta
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 02 Babylon- Berossus' account
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 03 Babylon- Gilgamesh epic
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 11 East Africa- Masai
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 12 Egypt- Book of the Dead
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 15 Greece- Lucian's account
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 22 Italy- Ovid's poetry
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 35 Wales- Dwyfan/Dwyfan legend
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 17 Iceland- Eddas
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 07 Canada- Cree
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 08 Canada- Montagnais
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 29 U.S.A. (Alaska)- Kolusches
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 30 U.S.A. (Alaska)- Tlingit
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 31 U.S.A. (Arizona)- Papago
D --- . --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 24 Mexico- Codex Chimalpopoca
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 25 Mexico- Huichol
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 10 Cuba- original natives
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 16 Guyana- Macushi
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 04 Bolivia- Chiriguano
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 27 Peru- Indians of Huarochiri
35 -- 18 -- 17 -- 35 -- 24 -- 32 -- Total Occurrences out of 35
The G's and W's are irrelevant to me, but I didn't feel like making the effort to remove them.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:03 pm
Deucalion's flood was caused by a lake escaping from its location due to earthquake. I also mentioned the Welsh 'flood' which was actually about a town sinking. There is a similar French tale about Lys(?).
many ancient peoples speak of alternating catastrophes of flood and fire. That which causes flood comes from the direction of one constellation and that which causes fire comes from the direction of a different constellation. Of the top of my head I think fire is Cancer.
As I've mentioned, my current focus is on the LBA collapse. I do not see any flood there - electrics and lots of fire, yes.
--------------------Postby Roshi » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:55 pm
Flood stories from around the world:
Wintu (north central California); Papago (Arizona).

Then - between 15000 and 12000 years ago, there was this giant flood. Caused by a shift in Earth's orbit, or as you say - a giant body passing by, or who knows what else. I agree with the electric discharge that shaped the features of Mars, maybe that's when a planet (Phaeton?) passed near Mars and was destroyed, and caused chaos on Earth. This is my version of history.

I don't find Brown's Hydroplate theory to be plausible, but his online book has a lot of good flood info
- Liquefaction During the Flood
- SUMMARY: Liquefaction ... played a major role in rapidly sorting sediments, plants, and animals during the flood. Indeed, the worldwide presence of sorted fossils and sedimentary layers shows that a gigantic global flood occurred. Massive liquefaction also left other diagnostic features such as cross-bedded sandstone, plumes, mounds, and fossilized footprints.
- The Origin of Strata and Layered Fossils
What would happen to buried animals and plants in temporarily liquefied sediments?
- As we will see, fluid-like sediments produced a buoyancy that largely explains why fossils show a degree of vertical sorting and why sedimentary rocks all over the world are typically so sharply layered. During liquefaction [common with water saturated soil during earthquakes], denser particles sink and lighter particles (and dead organisms, soon to become fossils) float up — until a liquefaction lens is encountered. Lenses of water form along nearly horizontal paths if the sediments below those horizontal paths are more permeable than those above, so more water flows up into each lens than out through its roof. Sedimentary particles and dead organisms buried in the sediments were sorted and resorted into vast, thin layers.
- A sedimentary layer often spans hundreds of thousands of square miles. (River deltas, where sediment thicknesses grow most rapidly [in modern times], are a tiny fraction of that area.) Liquefaction during a global flood would account for the vast expanse of these thick layers. Current processes and eons of time do not.
- One thick, extensive sedimentary layer has remarkable purity. The St. Peter sandstone, spanning about 500,000 square miles in the central United States, is composed of almost pure quartz, similar to sand on a white beach. It is hard to imagine how any geologic process, other than global liquefaction, could achieve this degree of purity over such a wide area.21 Almost all other processes involve mixing, which destroys purity.
- Today, sediments are usually deposited in and by rivers — along a narrow line. However, individual sedimentary rock layers are spread over large geographical areas, not on long narrow, streamlike paths. Liquefaction during the flood acted on all sediments and sorted them over wide areas in weeks or months.
- [An] experiment showed that the natural order of settling following death was, from the bottom up: amphibian, reptile, mammal, and finally bird.18 This order of relative buoyancy correlates closely with “the evolutionary order,” but, of course, evolution was not the cause. Other factors, also influencing burial order at each geographical location, were: liquefaction lenses; which animals were living in the same region; and each animal’s mobility before the flood overtook it.
- Many fossilized fish are flattened between extremely thin sedimentary layers. This requires squeezing the fish to the thinness of a sheet of paper without damaging the thin sedimentary layers directly above and below. How could this happen? Because dead fish usually float, something must have pressed the fish onto the seafloor. Even if tons of sediments were dumped through the water and on top of the fish, thin [flat] layers would not lie above and below the fish. Besides, it would take many thin layers, not one, to complete the burial. We do not see this happening today. However, liquefaction would sort sediments into thousands of thin layers. During each wave cycle, liquefaction lenses would simultaneously form at various depths in the sedimentary column. Fish that floated up into a water lens would soon be flattened when the lens finally drained. [Water hammers and flutter vibrated the sediments as explained below.]
- Water hammers occur, often with a loud bang, when a fluid flowing in a pipe is suddenly stopped (or slowed) by closing (or narrowing) a valve, such as a faucet. A water hammer is similar to the collision of a long train. The faster and more massive the flowing volume of water, the greater the sudden compression (or pressure pulse) throughout the pipe as the water is slowed or stopped. A water hammer concentrates energy, just as a hammer striking a nail concentrates energy and produces forces many times greater than a resting hammer.
- Vibrations often begin when a fluid (a liquid or gas) flows along a relatively thin, flexible surface, such as the wing of an airplane or a flat plate. If (a) the flowing fluid continually “thumps” or pushes the flexible surface back toward its neutral position, and (b) the “thumping” frequency approaches any natural frequency of the wing or plate, large, potentially damaging oscillations (or resonances), called flutter, can occur.
- Water [moving] beneath earth’s crust [in large caves and aquifers along with tidal waves over the crust] during the flood caused the crust to flutter, and its large area gave it great flexibility. Each narrowing of the subsurface flow channel by the vibrating crust slowed [vast amounts] of water and produced water hammers that “thumped” the crust at each of its natural frequencies. Undulations rippled throughout the crust, producing other water hammers, more undulations, pulsations ..., and huge flutter amplitudes. Most people have heard water pipes banging or have seen pipes burst when only a few cubic feet of water were slowed. Imagine the excruciating pressures from rapidly slowing a “moving underground ocean.”12
- Sediments, such as sand and clay, are produced by eroding crystalline rock, such as granite or basalt. Sedimentary rocks are cemented sediments. On the continents, they average more than a mile in thickness. Today, two-thirds of continental surface rocks are sedimentary; one-third is crystalline. Was crystalline rock, eroded at earth’s surface, the source of the original sediments? If it was, the first blanket of eroded sediments would prevent that rock from producing additional sediments. The more sediments produced, the fewer the sediments that could be produced. Exposed crystalline rock would disappear long before all today’s sediments and sedimentary rocks could form. Transporting those new sediments, often great distances, is another difficulty. Clearly, most sediments did not come from the earth’s surface. ...
- [I see 4 possibilities for the source of sand and clay sediments. They could have come from:
1. erosion of the granite continental shelf of the supercontinent;
2. erosion of the basalt ocean floor;
3. erosion of subsurface granite or basalt;
4. precipitation of detritus from space.
The first is Baumgardner's theory. The second is other creationists' view. The third is Brown's. The last is Cardona's, with Saturn flares being the specific source. #1 seems the most plausible, since megatsunamis caused by a planetoidal/asteroidal tidal pull would mostly affect the supercontinental shelf, probably in the western Pacific around Asia. Baumgardner explained that high velocity water, as in a megatsunami, causes cavitation, which can rapidly erode solid rock via vacuum pressure. But the shelf may also have contained a lot of sand and clay from normal rain erosion of the supercontinent for thousands or millions of years. That could be moved even more easily by "tidal waves".]
- Liquefaction Plumes and Mounds. The large water content of liquefied sand layers (40%) would have made them quite buoyant. Whenever a low-density, fluid layer (such as a water-sand mixture) underlies a denser, liquefied layer, the lighter fluid, if shaken, will float up in plumes through the denser fluid. Sand plumes that penetrated overlying layers are seen in many places on earth.
- During the [flood], liquefied water-sand mixtures in many places erupted like small volcanoes. Being surrounded and permeated by water, they would have quickly slumped into the shape of an upside-down bowl — a liquefaction mound. As the flood waters drained at the end of the flood, most liquefaction mounds were swept away, because they did not have time to be cemented. However, mounds inside postflood lakes (basins) were cemented as each lake cooled and its dissolved silica and calcium carbonate were forced out of solution. If a lake later breached and dumped its water, the larger cemented mounds could resist the torrent of rushing water and retain their shapes. The basins that held Grand and Hopi Lakes contain hundreds of such mounds. The sudden breaching of those lakes several centuries after the flood carved the Grand Canyon.
- Ayers Rock ... in central Australia ... has characteristics of both a broad liquefaction plume and a liquefaction mound.
- Missing Mesozoic STRATUM
- Actually, cutting through the Kaibab Plateau is a relatively minor problem, and carving the entire Grand Canyon is not even half the problem. The Grand Canyon’s rim consists of hard Kaibab Limestone, typically 350 feet thick. When you walk to the canyon’s edge to look down, you are standing on Kaibab Limestone. It extends away from the canyon in all directions, covering about 10,000 square miles. However, rising 1,000 feet above this Kaibab Limestone at a few dozen isolated spots are softer (crumbly or weakly cemented) Mesozoic rocks; they are always capped on top by a very hard rock, such as lava. Obviously, lava did not flow up to the top; lava, which flows downhill, collected in a depression and hardened. Later, a fast-moving sheet of water flowed over northern Arizona and swept all the soft Mesozoic rock off the hard Kaibab Limestone — except for the few dozen spots capped and protected by hard rock.
- Why must it have been a sheet of water? Falling rain would cut only channels. Flowing rivers or streams, even if they meandered for millions of years, would not uniformly sweep 1,000 feet or more of material off almost all of these 10,000 square miles of the fairly flat Kaibab Limestone. Besides, meandering rivers would produce meandering patterns. Therefore, before you can excavate 800 cubic miles of rock below the rim to form the Grand Canyon, something must sweep off almost all the Mesozoic rock above — a much larger excavation project. Surprisingly, the Mesozoic rock has also been swept off the Kaibab Plateau. How could water get so high? Maybe the sweeping process — the Great Denudation — occurred before the Kaibab Plateau rose. [YES! The plateau and all mountain ranges were uplifted after a large asteroid impact split up the supercontinent, apparently a short time after the flood.]
- Petrified Forest.
- Probably the world’s largest concentration of petrified wood is in the Petrified Forest National Park in Arizona. (Trainloads of petrified wood were removed before the region became a protected park in 1906.) Few people realize that this park lies inside the former Hopi Lake. Why does wood petrify, and how were these unusual conditions met in Hopi Lake?
- Researchers using silica-rich solutions have duplicated petrification in laboratories. [In the flood] (1) ... silica ... was dissolved in the hot subterranean water and (2) ... large preflood trees58 [were] floating in warm postflood lakes....
“... silica nucleation and deposition can occur directly and rapidly on exposed cellulose surfaces.” Sigleo, p. 1404.
- “The majority of these trees [in Petrified Forest National Park] were very tall. On the average the logs are about 80 to 100 feet long and three to four feet in diameter, but some range up to 200 feet in length and ten feet in diameter at the base.” Sidney Ash, Petrified Forest: The Story Behind the Scenery (Holbrook, Arizona: Petrified Forest Museum Association, 1985), p. 20.

====================postby Lloyd » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:29 pm
Problems in the Glacial Theory
Creation Research Society Quarterly, 13(1):25-34, June 1976
[Note: I'm not a creationist, but they published a lot of good science. I suspect that the great majority of glacial evidence is actually great flood evidence as this article explains.]
... A layer of unconsolidated material [called drift] ... covers the solid sedimentary and igneous rocks in the temperate zones of Europe and North America. ... A ... similar [layer] occurs in parts of India, in South Africa, the tropical zones of South America, and in many mountainous areas of the world.
<<__Question 1 for Gordon: Do you agree that the drift in India, S Africa & S America suggests that the drift layer was deposited before the supercontinent split, because those 3 areas were adjacent on the supercontinent? Europe & N America were also adjacent. I wonder if the other mountainous areas containing drift are adjacent to both of those two north & south locations.>>
<<__Question 2 for Gordon: Why did the drift not lithify during the flood? Is there any other significant amount of drift that wasn't deposited by the Great Flood? And why are there locations with no drift?>
- The material consists of gravel, sand and clay, with many large boulders of variable composition, and innumerable rounded stones and pebbles of all sizes. Often it is hundreds of feet thick. Frequently stratification exists, and it is usually present in the sand in the pattern of cross stratification.
- Cross stratification:
- Usually referred to as "drift", the material is also known as boulder-clay, diluvium, outwash deposits, glacial moraine, and till. ... In general, the landforms composed of drift have a remarkably fresh appearance. Although they contain loose material, the effects of erosion have been minimal, showing they could not be of great age but must have been formed recently.
<Glacial Theory> Geologists believe that the last of the ice disappeared only a few thousand years ago.
- The [layer] of drift is shaped into a wide variety of structures, [kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings, striations, potholes & erratics, as follows below]....
<<__Question 3 for Gordon: Can you explain how a megatsunami could produce each of the drift types discussed below, i.e. kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings, striations, potholes & erratics? Or can you give a source that explains them all?>
- Images of kames, eskers, rimmed plateaus, drumlins, flutings, striations, potholes & erratics:
- Kame:
- Esker:
- Drumlin:,
- Fluting:
- Striations:
- Potholes:
- Erratics:
- Kames are conical mounds usually composed of sandy material.
<Glacial Theory> [Kames] are thought to have been caused by the dumping of glacial debris when the great ice sheets of the glacial age melted.
- Eskers are long, winding ridges of gravel and sand.... Sometimes branching eskers occur. The eskers are known to stretch for great distances, go up and down hills, and disappear and occur again further on.
<Glacial Theory> [Eskers] are explained in the glacial theory as the debris of rivers formed in or on the glaciers, that was let down when the ice melted.
In the prairie regions of Canada and in the northern states of the United States there are various kinds of rimmed plateau, composed of drift. Often these have central depressions containing clay sediments. The rims are often composed of stony material and contorted drift layers. Some of the rimmed plateau or prairie mounds are of large size, with areas of several square miles, and may reach as much as 150 feet above the surrounding hummocky and pitted regions.
<Glacial Theory> The rimmed plateau and prairie mounds are explained in the glacial theory as landforms created during the melting of the great ice-sheets. The glaciers, it is believed, sometimes melted in such a way that isolated blocks of ice were formed, that wasted away and deposited their debris in various kinds of rimmed structures and plateau.
- Drumlins are hills shaped like the inverted bowl of a spoon.... Glacial flutings are similar, elongated parallel ridges and troughs. Individual flutings may stretch for several miles in the prairies of Canada and parts of North Dakota and Montana.
Drumlins and flutings are ... streamlined landforms ... often composed of drift, but many are bedrock or partly bedrock. Some have a mass of bedrock at their upstream ends. ... In drumlin swarms the drumlins all have locally parallel orientation ... sometimes covering thousands of square miles.
<Glacial Theory> Drumlins and flutings are explained as the effects of the movement of the ice in the glacial theory. The ice-sheet flowing across the countryside shaped and moulded the rocks and previously deposited layers of glacial debris into these remarkable ... landforms....
<<__Question 4 for Gordon: Could the parallel Nebraska dunes be drumlins or flutings? Is there any way an ice sheet could move significantly and streamline any of these drift types?>
- Striations are frequently present on the surface of the bedrock underlying the layer of drift. In some areas the bare rocks uncovered by drift are also scratched and grooved, as if by movement of stones across them.... Within the layers of gravel in the drift there are many rocks and boulders that are striated.
<Glacial Theory> These are thought to have been transported by ice and abraded in the process. ... [Bedrock surface striations are] attributed to the ice-sheets in the glacial theory [with] large numbers of stones being carried along in its base, that gouged the bedrock as the ice-sheet went along.
<<__Question 5 for Gordon: How could megatsunamis make striations on bedrock and on the rocks that they push around?>
- In the bedrock underneath the drift, and at many places where the bedrock is exposed, there are deep vertical potholes, ... usually filled up with the drift material, sand and gravel and large boulders.
<Glacial Theory> [Potholes] are often explained by reference to the glacial theory. These are attributed to glacial "moulins" or waterfalls tumbling down crevasses in the ice, that eroded the bedrock and caused these deep holes.
<<__Question 6 for Gordon: The Washington scablands that formed from the Missoula flood have potholes that formed by vortex cavitation during the flood, apparently, so were potholes in bedrock under the drift more likely form from flood than from glaciation? Are the scabland potholes ever filled with drift? Maybe this image answers the question: >
- Large boulders, ... known as "erratics" ..., are found in some regions with a composition quite different from that of the bedrock [and other drift] in the vicinity. These may sometimes be as large as houses, and are usually rounded, though some are of irregular shape. In the drift there are stones and pebbles of varying composition and appearance, but most of the rocks reflect the composition of the bedrock underneath.
<Glacial Theory> The large boulders ... are considered to have been transported from regions afar by the moving ice-sheets. ...
<<__Question 7 for Gordon: Why is most drift of the same rock type as the bedrock under it? If the flood transported large erratic boulders, shouldn't smaller kinds of drift material also be erratic?>
... ... Flint provides a table of some examples of ... erratics ... [here modified & supplemented]:
- Erratics
 Moved .. Uplifted
distance: height: .. From:
> 18 km; 1000 m; Mount Katahdin, Maine
> 100 km; 900 m; Adirondack Mountains, New York
160 km; 500 m; Allegheny Plateau, central New York
80 km; .. 900 m; Killington Peak, Green Mountains, Vermont
1,300 km; 1,300 m; Rocky Mountains of Alberta
Moved dist: .. To: .... From:
100-1250 km; UK-Russia; Scandinavia & Finland
1000 km; .... Missouri; Ontario
... km; ..............; Alberta
... km; ..............; Manitoba
... km; ..............; Northwest Territories
... km; ..............; [Ireland &] Wales
... km; ..............; Northern Germany
- These erratics, [many] perched higher than their sources, if they are to be attributed to ice, would require that the direction of the flow of the ice was opposite to the slope of the land. Flint suggested that the stones were carried in the base of the ice, which flowed uphill, rather than that they somehow migrated upwards through the ice. ... How Could the Ice Move Uphill?... Howorth accused the glacialists of departing from the principles of physics and appealing to "transcendental causes". ... Howorth believed that the motivation of geologists who favored the glacial theory was their reluctance to accept a catastrophic alternative. ... In his book Ice or Water he [said:] ... Their real inspiration has been the fervent hope embodied in the words with which Sir R. Ball concludes his ill-fated book on the Glacial Age. "The appeal to ice removed the glacial period from the position of a 'catastrophic' phenomenon. It placed the ice-sheet as an implement at the disposal of the geological uniformitarian."

XX 1st Draft / X = [1-1] The Former Supercontinent
« on: January 07, 2017, 06:55:48 pm »
[1-1] The Former Supercontinent
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Postby webolife» Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:02 pm
- Is this confusing Earth with Paradise in the Sky?
- Didn't continental drift occur centuries after the Flood to cause the Ice Age?
... Old Earth creationism ... accepts the big bang, radiometric dating, the flood as a local [mid east] event; and among other things regarding Adam, argues that all hominids [incl. Neanderthals] except Homo sapiens sapiens were not human.
... Genesis chaps. 1 - 4 to indicate several key things about the early [pre-flood] earth:
- 1. Low topography -- the main rivers proceeded from a single stream and separated, like a delta, as a opposed to merging tributaries in a watershed; Psalm 104 [lit: "the mountains they go up, the valleys they go down"] also adds that the boundary mountain ranges went up after the flood, making a barrier against a future catastrophic flood.
- 2. Single land mass is implied by the reference to a single ocean.
- 3. Warm climate worldwide -- no seasonal weather until after the flood, primordial seasons based on astronomy
- 4. No matar, and no rain -- the initiating factors of the flood were not in effect, suggesting a greenhouse climate.
- 5. Humans and all animals were contemporary.
- 6. Several factors [eg. atmospheric] contributed to longevity of lifespans for all organisms, incl people.
- The sending of the matar initiated the flood event. - For the mountains to have risen, as they were witnessed to have done at the end of the flood [second half of the flood year], what we understand as continental drift must have occurred during the first half. Running the tape backwards, so to speak, the "fountains of the deep" [now mid-ocean rifts] would have been faults originally through the middle of the one-land mass. So the fountains indicate the beginning of the crustal displacement and seafloor spreading which cascaded into all of the other factors of the flood, ending in the boundary mountains and subsequent formation of volcanic chains and island arcs.
- Therefore, in catastrophic flood geology the __sedimentary strata belong to the flood era, not before [__except the variously metamorphosed Pre-Cambrian groupings__], and only some following. These later deposits would have been in conjunction with the melt-back of the glaciers and rising sea levels in the few centuries following the flood. There is no macro-evolution in this picture, and all the fossils are a result of the flooding, as their sedimentary resting places affirm.
- So the SD events [if accepted] must have been in conjunction with the early flood era, not an event of centuries later.
- I don't really care if the matar resulted from the earth's passage through the asteroid belt, or if the asteroid belt resulted from some interplanetary event that coincided with the bombardment of earth, or if it was Venus, Mars or some other large planetoid that interacted with the Earth. The least exotic view seems to be a single body passing by and interacting for a time [a la Velikovsky] with the earth. I think the evidence is sparse for most versions of what caused the bombardment, so I base my timelines on the evidence left behind. There are major astroblemes associated with every major sedimentary stratum [what the standard modelers think of as epochs], so I take it also as a plain reading of the biblical record that the start and stop of the matar bookend the first 150 days of the flood event, and this further supports that the "geologic column" resides in that time frame.
- Post-flood results:
1. Mountainous topography, resulting from the drift event of the flood
2. Separated continents
3. Seasonal weather, from the "new" tilt of the earth, multiple climates world-wide, and a global wind system that was not in effect during the early greenhouse -- also a gradual global warming trend following the glaciation
4. Rain as a regular event
5. Humans and animals preserved and speciated from the few survivors of the flood event (another thread topic)
6. Decreasing longevity over the centuries

====================postby Lloyd » Thu May 05, 2016 7:09 am
- Grey Cloud at denied catastrophism and said "Many, if not most, of the myths relating to stars etc are conveying information about navigation rather than catastrophe". I'm not familiar with star myths, but most myths were about the planets, Saturn, Venus and Mars, I believe, and they were often about catastrophes. Here's some background.
- Catastrophism and Anthropology
[SIS C&C Review] 5 Mar 2003
From: SIS Chronology& Catastrophism Review (1994) "Proceedings of the 1993 Cambridge Conference" Issue Contents Catastrophism and Anthropology - The Influence of Neo-Catastrophism on the Interpretation of Flood Rituals and Ceremonies Benny Josef Peiser School of Human Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University
- Introduction
- __Only 150 years ago, most of Europe's leading scholars were convinced that the ancient flood traditions and festivals originated from natural catastrophes that had occurred during man's early history. Both historians and anthropologists were able to point to a rich variety of catastrophe legends found throughout the world.__< For more than 2500 years these ancient traditions were generally viewed as historical. Not only did all the famous scholars of antiquity write about these natural disasters but, moreover, __during the 18th and 19th century the newly established science of geology gave rise to findings and strata which clearly seemed to testify to major natural upheavals. As a consequence, scientists of Europe's enlightenment (among others Vico, Boulanger, Whiston, Cuvier) related the origins of ancient customs and rituals to these past cataclysms.__< Vico and Boulanger accepted the ancient belief that the Earth had undergone many natural disasters and that from these global upheavals all institutions and religious ceremonies were derived.
- Yet, with the emergence of 19th century evolutionary gradualism, all fields of science banned catastrophe theories completely from universities, research and scientific journals. Over and over again, historians and anthropologists rejected any historical reading of the ancient catastrophe legends and rituals by reference to the works of Darwin and Lyell [1. __When Frazer published his comprehensive study on the worldwide story of the great flood, he stressed the paradigmatic importance of Darwin's theory of evolution, consequently rejecting every possibility that the tradition originated from historical events [2. According to Frazer's biographer, the implicit purpose of this rejection was 'to undermine the Bible and religion by insisting on its folkloric stratum, thereby associating it with savagery'__< [3. Since then, 20th century anthropology has tended to view the ancient flood traditions as mere reflections of 'mythical' thinking, whereas catastrophe rituals and festivals are almost totally ignored [4. As a result, anthropological studies which have focused on the relationship between religious ceremonies and catastrophe rituals and traditions of natural disasters are very rare. Despite the fact that research in the field of rituals has quickened its pace over the course of this century, ceremonies which re-enacted or commemorated natural catastrophes have been paid relatively little attention [5. In the light of new astronomical discoveries and the emergence of scientific neo-catastrophism, it is necessary to re-evaluate the historicity and the possible effects of the ancient flood catastrophes. Since astronomy, geology and biology have finally accepted the catastrophic history of planet Earth and its inhabitants, it is time for anthropologists to recognise the findings of natural science and to adopt them in their research.
- Collective reactions to natural catastrophes
- Natural catastrophes do not necessarily lead to collective responses in form of catastrophe games or rituals. In many cases, the scope of the disaster is limited and the disaster agent is clearly identified. However, if a natural catastrophe results in extreme devastation and destruction, or if the agent of destruction is unknown, the disaster can prove to be a traumatic experience which triggers post-disaster collective reactions. These activities stem from the desire of communities struck by catastrophe to influence and pacify the agents of destruction. Furthermore, expressive (and in most cases violent) responses are triggered by collective anger and tension following traumatic catastrophes. To avoid internal violence and civil strife, the growing aggression within a community of survivors has to be acted out in a structured, organised and generally accepted (i.e. ritualised) form. It was particularly conspicuous in antiquity that many catastrophe games and festivals took place either to commemorate foregone catastrophes or to avoid future disasters. Although there is considerable overlap, these games and festivals can be classified into three different categories: i) festivals, which were held in commemoration of a foregone disaster; ii) playful rituals, with an apotropaic function of hindering future natural catastrophes; iii) games, which dramatised and re-enacted a natural catastrophe. Most of these ceremonies were held in the form of combats, blood sacrifices and religious rituals or, alternatively, through mimetic dramatisation of the catastrophe. Right from the very start they had the supposed function of pacifying natural forces and of hindering an apocalyptic end of the world.

=========================Postby Lloyd » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:13 pm
- Catastrophism Topics
At the end of my previous post I listed Catastrophism topics, which are meant to be chronologically sequential, like this:
1. Pre-Flood Supercontinent > 2. Saturn Flare > 3. Civilization > 4. Asteroid Bombardment > 5. Continental Drift > 6. Flood > 7. Fossils > 8. Mountain Uplift > 9. Erosion > 10. Glaciation
#1-#3 apparently occurred at least 1,000 years before the main cataclysm. #4-#9 occurred during the main cataclysm about 4,350 years ago. #10 started soon after the cataclysm and lasted a few hundred years. Here is a comparison between GW's and CC's models for the origin of the Supercontinent.
__Topic #1: The Supercontinent
-ANISOTROPY: On a primordial mostly molten earth, anisotropy predisposes one side of the earth to melt or erupt more basaltic lava
-this becomes the early Pacific basin.
-PLANETARY ENCOUNTER: An early close tidal encounter with the Moon [or other astronomical body] facilitated this eruptive phase.
-major bombardment would have not yet occurred
-REBOUND: The accompanying release of pressure initiates an opposite side upheaval,
-evidenced by basement continental rocks having a composition similar to the mantle materials, eg. granites,
-which have undergone pressure-induced metamorphism during the uplift process.
-EARTH ROTATION: Stabilization of the earth's ~24 hr rotation would have occurred at this time.
-PRECAMBRIAN: Washing over of this basement continental mass by the seas during uplift covers the basement material with sedimentary Pre-Cambrian strata,
-as well as some primordial continental slope canyons/coastal valleys
-which would predispose additional deposition events around the edges of the supercontinent.
-UPLIFT: The accumulation of overburden keeps in motion the [isostatic] uplift of the supercontinent to its pre-cataclysm level
-3 km above the average surface level,
-with a continental root extending down a few dozen kilometers.
-Natural uplifted "cells" [cratons] at this point joined together [the "ur" supercontinent]
-acquire potential energy under the pressure of isostasy,
-and will later become the drifting plates catalyzed into motion by bombardment of the "matar".__<
- __CC: SUPERCONTINENT ORIGIN ... 6199-15407
[LK Summary?: ProtoMoon was tidally extended; part of it soft-landed on Earth as the supercontinent. The remainder went into orbit as the Moon.]
-PROTOMOON GRANITE: Somewhat more telling of an impact is the fact that the Moon is made of granite, and so is the Earth's continental crust,
-but the rest of the Earth (i.e., the oceanic crust, and everything below) is fundamentally different stuff
— most notably of greater density, which is what allows the continents to float on the mantle and extend above sea level.
-The granite could not have been indigenous to the Earth,
-because if it was, it would have bubbled up to the surface when the Earth was entirely molten,
-and it would have leveled quickly under the force of gravity — as fast as irregularities in the surface of a lava lake disappear
— producing a very thin, very flat layer completely covering the heavier basalt.
-So the continental granite had to arrive later, after the Earth had cooled.
-And the impact had to be gentle enough not to completely re-melt the Earth.
-FLATTENED SUPERCONTINENT: Thereafter, the granite slowly pancaked into the original super-continent of Pangaea,
-which then rifted into the modern continents, under the force of gravity.
-(This disregards hypotheses concerning earlier supercontinents, such as Rodinia andColumbia, for lack of a force that could recombine the fragments.)
-The arc-like shape of Pangaea is atypical of collisional deposits
— perhaps the collider was spinning, and matter was scraped off of the collider where the rotation caused submersion.
-SIZE COMPARISON: The volume of the Moon is 2.20 × 10^10 km3, while the volume of the continents is 7.58 × 10^9 km3.1
-So Theia would have had a volume of 2.95 × 10^10 km3, and it would have lost 26% of its volume to the Earth, while retaining 74% for itself [the Moon].__<

XX 1st Draft / 2 = [1-0] The Millennium of Global Catastrophe 4-5,000 BP
« on: August 06, 2016, 09:32:30 am »
This paper is under construction. It started with a forum discussion at which is still ongoing. The material here is mainly quoted from that discussion, with much deleted and all reorganized. I plan to use that material as an aid for writing this paper. I'll probably retain some of the quotes, but I expect not a lot of them. As I write the paper, I expect I'll delete most of the forum discussion.

Uniformitarian Geology (like other establishment institutions) is a house of cards ready to fall down, just from the slightest new impact. The weak link in the chain of arguments for conventional geology is the  assumption that sedimentary rock strata were deposited very gradually, each stratum requireing thousands of years to accumulate and lithify. The internet has allowed amateurs to enter serious discussions of science, making it more democratic and less authoritarian. Authoritarianism is coming to be seen as barbaric and outdated, which it is. See the Foreword below for some of the detailed non-religious reasons that strata must have been deposited under catastrophic conditions, not gradualistic ones.

. Contents & Foreword
. Major Earth Events
[1-1] The Former Supercontinent
[1-2] The Great Flood
[1-3] The Supercontinent Breakup & Orogenesis
[1-4] The Ice Age
. Saturn Age
[1-5] Earth Origin
[1-6] Saturn Pole Star
[1-7] Venus Comet
[1-8] Mars Warrior Planet

[1-1] The Former Supercontinent
[1-2] The Great Flood
[1-3] The Supercontinent Breakup & Orogenesis
[1-4] The Ice Age



I think the following is a rather objective analysis of others' findings on Solar System Chronology.

. Origin.
The Earth and the Moon are of indeterminate ages.

>6k. Supercontinent.
A collision with an asteroid partly formed a supercontinent on Earth and possibly also formed the Moon over 6,000 years ago. The land had no mountains. Earth was shrouded in a much thicker atmosphere.

>6k. Precambrian Strata.
A close encounter with the Moon or an asteroid caused tsunamis that formed pre-Cambrian sedimentary rock strata on the Earth without fossils, also over 6,000 years ago.

6k+. Life.
Life originated on Earth at least 6,000 years ago. Dinosaurs dominated the supercontinent. The climate on the supercontinent centered on the equator was warm.

5k. Great Flood.
A close encounter with a large body caused tsunamis that formed sedimentary rock strata about a mile thick containing fossils on the supercontinent about 5,000 years ago. Many large meteors impacted the Earth. The dinosaurs were mostly wiped out. Much of the atmosphere was lost.

5-4.5k. Mammals.
The supercontinent became dominated by large mammals after the flood.

4.5k. Conflagration.
Large meteors hit the Yucatan, Hudson Bay and possibly Siberia. They caused a conflagration and deposited ash and glass debris about 4,500 years ago.

4.4k. Supercontinent Breakup.
A very large meteor hit the supercontinent north of Madagascar about 4,400 years ago. The impact broke it apart and the continents slid over the Moho layer to near their present positions in a short time. This flooded large areas and killed most of the large mammals. The northern continents were pushed north and Antarctica south into freezing climates. Mountains and volcanoes formed on the continents.

4.4-. Ice Age.
Volcanoes and hurricanes put a lot of dust in the air, which cooled the air and caused precipitation of heavy rain and snow. Glaciation covered much of Europe and North America. This lasted a few hundred years.

4.4-4.2k. Resettlement.
Humans migrated and started bronze-age civilizations in Sumer, Egypt, India, China and possibly Brazil about 4,200 years ago. Myths and religions commemorated the former Golden Age.

>6k-4.4k. Golden Age.
Venus, Mars and Earth were planets of Saturn until about 4,400 years ago, when the system destabilized and broke up, causing major impacts on Earth, the Moon and other bodies.


Good news and bad news: the bad news is that society has been increasingly corrupted by corporate profit-making and exploitation, using fraud and other deception.

This Catastrophic Geology is not based on Religious Beliefs. The U.S. started out as a place to practice the Christian ideal of sharing love for all and that has never gone away, but it has come to have much less influence on the public. The Christian ideal was never very pure though either, as it was mixed with irrational fear of God instead of being pure love. Now corporate greed has become the dominant influence in the U.S. Not that profit-making is a bad thing; it isn't. Some, like John Stossel, say greed is a good thing. That's shallow thinking. Profit-making isn't greed, but is merely meeting one's needs. Greed is an addiction to wanting more than one needs, which results in shortages and thus makes it harder for others to meet their own needs.

Nearly all our institutions have become corrupted by corporate greed, even including science and health care. Since the purpose of "everything" has become to make maximum corporate profit, instead of to help everyone, a great deal of fraud has entered into these institutions. The good news is that we now have an opportunity to re-evaluate all of the claims of the institutions, find and highlight all of the fraudulent claims and move forward with new findings that will benefit all.

In this paper I will start with re-examining the history of the solar system. The history of health care, politics and economics would probably have more immediate benefit for the public, but I'll write about that later. Better understanding of the history of the solar system should have benefits for the public as well, since it should lead to better means for humanity to colonize space, i.e. the rocky bodies in space.

The first space work priority should be protecting Earth from asteroid and meteor impacts and cleaning up near space so satellites and spacecraft can orbit Earth or travel away from Earth without colliding with space junk. Next should be setting up bases on the Moon and then on Mars, and later inside asteroids, comets and other moons. Later, Venus should be made habitable by causing some icy asteroids to crash onto it. Earth itself can also harbor a lot more life in the Arctic and Antarctic and on the oceans and even in near space.


1. Radioactive Decay Clock.
Science began to be taken over by corporate interests in the late 1800s and these interests tended to be antireligious. Religious people tended to believe that the Earth was hit with a global flood a few thousand years ago, because the Bible makes that claim, and religious geologists found abundant evidence of such a flood.

The antireligious geologists, who probably wanted to prove the Bible was wrong, were not making much headway until in the early 1900s radioactivity was discovered and along with that was found the decay rates of radioactive elements. The decay rates indicated how old some rock formations were, but the estimates were based on some important unproven assumptions, e.g. that all of the element called lead was a decay product and that the decay rates can never change under any circumstances. __I'll discuss these probably false assumptions later.__

By the way, the Bible very likely is wrong about some things, although the errors may be mostly innocent transcriber errors. But it's apparently not very wrong about the Great Flood. It may be wrong or misunderstood about Noah's Ark.

2. Sedimentary Rock Strata & Fossil Formation.
Religious geologists in the 1800s probably had naive ideas about the Great Flood. The Bible gives the impression that constant heavy rain for 40 days caused the flood and the waters calmly rose up until they overtopped the highest mountains and all the land creatures drowned.

More recent religious geologists have come up with much better ideas. The flood was more likely caused by tsunamis and the tsunamis were likely caused by a large asteroid or the Moon coming close enough to Earth to cause huge tidal waves for several months. And tall mountains likely did not exist yet, so the tsunamis did not need to be so high.

An amateur religious geologist friend says that the Bible mentions that "matar" fell during the flood and he thinks the matar means meteors and the fountains of the deep were meteor splashes in the oceans.

If the flood waters rose calmly just from rain and maybe underground waters, the sedimentary rock strata and fossils would not be well explained, but if tsunamis caused the flood, that would explain the strata and fossils very well. The tsunamis would have brought mud and sand from the continental margins onto the land, burying animals and plants and forming strata containing fossils.

Antibiblical geologists are now stuck with the most implausible arguments for strata and fossil formation. They must imagine there were some mountains of pure sand, other mountains of pure clay and others of pure lime, that took turns eroding away so as to deposit in broad, shallow seas first, e.g. a stratum of sand that became sandstone, then a stratum of lime that became limestone, then a stratum of clay that became shale or mudstone, and repeating that process numerous times, with each stratum taking thousands of years to form, usually without mixing with any of the other mountain erosion materials. This slow sedimentation was somehow supposed to bury all of the organisms that are now fossils. They solve the problem by ignoring it and seldom mentioning it. I'll go into details later in section [1-2c].

__Get pictures of strata__

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