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CNPS Structured Discussion / Re: CNPS General Discussion
« Last post by Admin on September 26, 2017, 05:48:30 pm »
Forum next steps
Saturday, August 5, 2017 9:09 AM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Hi Lloyd,
_The board has just finished gathering notes together. There is a lot to think through and discuss - 5 pages to be exact. So, major decisions are away off. It will take at least a month, given all board members are volunteers. I think I have enough understanding of the issues to take action. I've also been officially put on the board. So, let's move ahead with what we can. I'll discuss this in the Special Projects section below.
_Someone else asked me if the email posts could automatically be displayed on the Forum. I don't know how to do that. But I also think it's a bad idea. As we move to more productive Forum discussions, MOST of the email posts would have to be deleted as trash. It's better to work to bring over responsible members who agree to tighter conduct rules. I'll put your name on my email removal list if you want. Let me know. It will still take awhile to be effective.
_I looked at all the posts related to Critical Wikis in the Forum. All of them seemed very preliminary - almost like scratch sheets. But you've collected information for each which is where the process has to start. Let's address this further by talking about a special project.
_The Special Projects section of the CNPS planning notes is included below. These are all suggestions for efforts CNPS could work on AS A GROUP in the coming year. So far, CNPS has not figured out HOW to work as a group. As I said, CNPS has a lot to discuss. What I'd like you and I to do is pick ONE project that we will work together on right away as an example to the other directors of how I think we can employ the Structured Discussion process. The "ONE" project I'm referring to is NOT on the list below. It's one of the projects you have already started that you have a personal interest in.
_Let's say, for example, you pick the 3.3.3 Scientific Method project. What we would do, is, include sections that address items 4.1, 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8, 4.11 and 4.12 from the Special Projects list. Since all of those for all of science would still be much to big a job, we could aim all the parts at a specific physics issue, like item 4.4 from the list. That would also pull in 4.2 and 4.3.
_You can also pick one of your other interests instead. But none of those came up during the conference, nor have they had much interest. The nearest matches were Expansion Tectonics and Positron / Electron aethers, both big topics at the conference. Of course, you can also pick a new topic to try.
_My objective in listing all these alternatives is for you to see that I want to support something you have a strong personal interest. This comes from my major drive with the board. CNPS, as a society, has to deliver VALUE to its members. I want to use our interaction to demonstrate how this can be done.
_4.  Special Projects
_The purpose of special projects is that they have specific goals and an organized process that people can get in on and benefit from.
_4.1   Detailed Library and keyword subject index of member papers
The CNPS library has 13,000+ items. Unless these are organized for easy and understandable access, people will not take the time to “wade” through them. Most items have titles that are not descriptive of their contents. Detailed indexing is needed.
·     Indexing should be done by the authors for their own papers against published guidelines.
·     This effort should earn awards: e.g. Those that index their papers go to the top of the list.
_4.2   GPS paper based on Ron Hatch’s work – title: “GPS corrections to Special Relativity”
Ron’s work provides paradigm shifting experimental results for the speed of light. A large effort, tied to CNPS, should be started to push this into social awareness.
_4.3   Do focused promotions of “breakthrough” ideas from the conference
·     Musa showed how a bipolar aether can explain gravity, using only electrostatics.
·     Bruce stumbled on a way to eliminate one of the S.I. fundamental units (distance or time). Unzieker offered to “look” at it.
·     Bruce found a new paradox for SR – the “c-speed” paradox. Lori Gardi also found a similar phenomenon, both of which show SR is an instrument calibration error problem.
_4.4   A focused push on Special Relativity
The study of email interactions by members showed that SR constituted more than 80% of all discussions. We should focus SR to pull members into the Forum.
·     Find summaries of SR proof experiments.
·     Find summaries that show where society thinks SR has been used – Mercury orbit etc.
·     Review and find challenges for each. Base this on the Sapere Aude index (which Gertrud will help with). Update and promote that index.
·     Publish a major “SR Update paper”
_4.5   Attack the LANGUAGE problem!
During the conference, it was very clear that members do NOT talk the same language, because they don’t share the same definitions of words. This is a critical problem to solve.
·     One element would be setting up a Critical Thinker Glossary. Each term would be supported by a published Critical Wiki.
·     Tear apart the misleading terminology of terms used in particle physics.
_4.6   Attack the “shut up and do the math” problem!
Many members are very competent manipulating equations. But many of those are not as good understanding how the variables in the equations apply to reality. An effort to convert them would improve intermember communication.
_4.7   Experimental Evidence Review
·     List the experimental evidence that society believes “proves” major theories: Michelson-Morley, Eddington etc. Organize and present the now known errors.
·     Focus on helping people identify Pseudo Science ::: “not subject to tangible proof”
_4.8   Develop scientific tests that will break the logjams of entrenched theories
Members have suggestions for each of these and more.
·     Speed of light
·     Aether / Gravity: develop a test to determine the mechanism – fields, particles
_4.9   Debates! Use a new Structured Communication approach
·     Duncan Shaw suggested staging debates to resolve incompatible theories. Conventional debate models, as an approach, have collapsed with the collapse of modern democracy. Structured Communication provides a solution. This new form of debate can be used as a verbal alternative to Structured Communication in the Forum. The goal is not to find a winner, but to assemble a comprehensive review of a topic. If there is enough knowledge to reach a conclusion, then a “winner” would be found.
_4.10                 Science Court!
·     This would be a variation of Duncan’s Debates. Using a new Structured Communication approach, it would NOT be aimed at reaching a verdict but be more like a Congressional hearing to: gather information and organize information. Critical thinkers would be welcome. Mainstream voices could present like anyone else, but would not be shown any presumed merit.
_4.11                 Implement the Critical Wikipedia
·     One approach under investigation is to make a Critical Wikipedia page a goal for Structured Discussions in the Forum. This would apply to every scientific term discussed there.
_4.12                 Start Peer Review
·     We are going to need reviewers for many things. Let’s start the search for people who can do this well, and reward them for doing so.
Bruce
__On Aug 4, 2017, at 3:39 PM, lloyd kinder wrote:
_Hi Bruce. Is work with the Conference finished yet?
_I guess I mentioned that Gertrud said she didn't want to write on the forum. She also didn't reply to my request to ask her and her team questions.
_Someone put me back on the email string, which is okay so far. It seems to me it might be feasible and helpful to have the email messages automatically displayed on the forum in your first section, from where they could later be moved to a more appropriate section. What do you think?
_Is the Wiki coming along okay to your satisfaction?
- Good Day. Lloyd

---

Re: Debates
Saturday, September 2, 2017 7:34 AM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Lloyd,
_David is not moving very quickly deciding on action. He was focused on setting up the conference for next year. That is now done. It will be at UConn.  In any case, there is no need to wait. Just start moving ahead with your ideas. Getting James to annotate the questions is a big help. I'll push David to let me start a real organization newsletter. That's the proper way to tell members about the ET effort. But you should definitely post to the email string.
_Bruce

On Sep 1, 2017, at 6:00 PM, lloyd kinder wrote:
_Hi Bruce. You said:
_B: I think you can start your first debate right in the Forum using your role as facilitator. For example, In the Tasks & Request for Volunteers, number 1.4 is Organize focused discussions related to the "open" questions with a goal of finding answers. Add a new item in the Open Assignments list: 4.2 Hold debates on specific open questions. Then assign yourself as the Team Leader.
_L: James Maxlow told me a couple days ago that he's working on answering all 22 questions about ET, so I expect to see his answers on the forum soon. He asked if it's okay to include pictures and I said yes. I also expect that I'll still have at least one or two open questions after he posts his answers.
_The other open questions are regarding the other geological theories. I don't know if CNPS members will be interested in helping find answers to those questions, but I guess I can ask.
- Good Day. Lloyd

Re: Debates
Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:03 AM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Lloyd,
_This is outstanding work on your part. I'm including David deHilster on this reply because this can have significant impact on CNPS growth.
_You've asked a lot of questions. Let me take them one at a time. (matched to reference numbers added below)
_Back in mid August, we hadn't fully organized the Expansion Tectonics Structured Forum yet. You were already working on Surge Tectonics. So that is what they were responding to. I've set the 6.0 Forum category up to handle as many subjects as users show interest in.
_There is a LOT to read "between the lines" here. Dr. Choi, based only on your contact, evidently forwarded your ideas to many of their "editorial" members.  That's a big deal. Furthermore, most of them replied positively. To me, this is an important example of how we can grow CNPS. I'm also noting, it is not because they found the CNPS website. It happened because we reached out to a specialty.
_So this is where we need David's input.  How do we bring them in?  For example, we could ask one member of NCGT to join CNPS as the primary interface. Hopefully, it will lead to others joining voluntarily. To start their involvement, I've created a Forum user category called "Guest Scholar". They essentially have temporary read/write forum privileges. Other NCGT members can join the forum as "Guests", but they can only read.
_I always believed that creating a Critical Wiki "feature" at CNPS could become a major draw for members. David has done a lot to establish a foundation for this. But a lot of work is needed to make it more usable. With this new expression of interest from outside, it may be the trigger we need to start a "formal" CNPS project. The key is lining up the manpower to do it. But this outside interest could be the catalyst.
_They want to know more about us! This, again, suggests a new approach to how we do outreach. We can tell them to just look through our website. But, most people won't do that because it covers too broad an area. But, having a person like you, with your background, make a one-on-one contact opened the door to make an introduction. Again, I want to get David's perspective on this. For me, we should not just reply with anything simple like our mission statement or goals. This needs to be targeted towards what NCGT readers are interested in. It would actually be presented in a way that is a "ghost article" that NCGT could publish in their journal as an editorial or special interest piece showing how CNPS resources can help their effort.
_My plan for the Forum in this regard is simple. We would generate as many Wikis as effort comes forward to produce. That's the draw from their group. NCGT, being a journal, may not have the skills to generate Wikis. We have the skills - they have the writers. We just need to pull it together and give both organizations notoriety for it.
_We are already starting to explore debates / discussions in the Forum using my new Structured approach. Their participation will help. But, we need to use the new approach or the outcome will just go into the Internet Landfill.  We have to stop that.
_Both, plus more options as well. There should be as many papers and Wikis as the members provide energy to produce. Each paper will focus on some narrow issue. In those papers, they will briefly reference all the theories they drew from. So, there will be a pyramid of both papers and Wikis: A few general references at the top spreading to larger numbers at levels below as more specific subjects are addressed. What will help launch this is getting enough annotation on the papers already cataloged in the CNPS library so they can become the basis for the new Wikis.
_David has recently pulled part of the Wiki format process together. Specifically, he has covered the composition part. What is still missing is guidance on the pyramid approach. That will be new. In brief, it will show how a large group of papers and Wikis come together as a system. For example, there would be a major organizing Wiki for Global Tectonics, that briefly talks about all the major theories (this is the table you have started). It would point to organizing Wikis for each individual theory. Those, in turn, would point to additional Wikis for parts of the theory.  We do not have a process description in place to point anyone to yet. In the mean time, just focus on one Wiki at a time.
_As for the debates, use the etherpad discussions and emails we have had as guidance. Remember, this is an experiment to find out which ideas work best.
_Use the answers he gives to support your earlier discussions for ST. But I think you need to narrow down your interest. You are also getting a lot of support from James Maxlow. Don't shortchange him. It may be better to focus NCGT on ET until the first few papers and Wikis are produced so we have something tangible to show for all the effort that is being generated. To date, category 6.2 has posted 24 threads; 70 replies; and 1364 views. You and I have sent 175+ emails. Using the methods I developed for the email analysis, I estimate that the Expansion Tectonics forum effort has now drawn over 225 hours of effort from our members! Let's keep focusing to get a paper and Wiki out of this soon!
_Bruce
__On Sep 5, 2017, at 11:19 PM, lloyd kinder wrote:
_Hi Bruce.
_On August 15, Dr. Choi, who edits the NCGT (New Concepts in Global Tectonics) journal, replied to me regarding the CNPS Special Project as follows.
_{1} "We received feedbacks from editorial members. Most of them are willing to join. All of them are world-class experts in their own field, who proposed their own ideas with sound data.  Naturally more subjects must be included in addition to surge tectonics. Surge tectonics appeared more than 20 years ago, and during the period many new data have appeared - some require revisions and adjustments, which must be reflected in the Wiki.
_{2} "Please let us know more in detail in what format the Wiki will be published, and what and how we need to prepare.
_{3} "We want to know more about you. Please introduce yourself to our editorial members.
_{4} I guess Dr. Choi may have had the impression that all of the theories involved in this project would receive Wiki entries. Is there any reason they should not have such entries there? It seems worthwhile to me.
_{5} Anyway, I think several of the other NCGT editors are interested in debates or discussions.
_{6} Will the theories in the project all be mentioned in the final paper of this project? Or will each theory have its own entry in the Wiki?
_{7} Do you have an answer to what format the Wiki will be published in? Should I just give them a link to the CNPS Wiki?
_{8} For them to prepare for the debates/discussions, will they just need to ask questions about other theories and answer other people's questions about theirs?
_{9} I just now told him about my progress on the Special Project and asked him if he could fill out the remaining ST claims for 5 Earth features. I hope to answer his questions soon.
- Good Day. Lloyd

Re: 6.0 Forum
Saturday, September 9, 2017 9:39 AM
From: "Bruce Nappi" <bnappi@A3RI.org>
_Lloyd,
_I think I understand your overall idea, but there are factors you aren't considering. The major one is the scope of the facilitation problem. To do justice to each of these subsections, we would need a separate facilitator for each one. You couldn't possibly facilitate all of them. This is why I kept trying to get you to pick one, just to work out the details. To fulfill just ET, here are the tasks I still think need to be accomplished:
_A comprehensive, annotated bibliography still needs to be collected. The goal is to provide a complete foundation for the theory with no loose ends.
_A comparison table / discussion is needed to frame ET within the other theories.  The goal is, when major papers are written, they can start from a defined place in the tectonic map that makes it clear what their pros and cons are, in relation to all the others. This is important because it  FOCUSES all the following efforts.
_Let me elaborate on this a little more. The major problem plaguing ALL of science is chaos in our discussions! This is what my papers have been talking about. The tectonic discussions are no different. Until we get a map that tells everyone: a. these are the theories; b. this is what makes them distinct; c. these are their strong points; d. these are their weak points, the discussions will turn into landfill chaos, just like the email string. Since the conference, there have been over 1600 emails! - ALL lost to CNPS progress!  Think about the stats I provided just on 6.2 ET: "To date, category 6.2 has posted 24 threads; 70 replies; and 1364 views. You and I have sent 175+ emails. Using the methods I developed for the email analysis, I estimate that the Expansion Tectonics forum effort has now drawn over 225 hours of effort from our members!"  WHAT HAVE WE, AND YOU SPECIFICALLY AS FACILITATOR, GOT TO SHOW FOR IT! What have you achieved for the 225 hours you have facilitated so far!
_If we try to cover all of this, we will get nothing in the end. The comparison table goal is to narrow down our selection of critical issues that NEED TO BE SOLVED. A critical issue is one that, if solved, make major headway, + or - for a theory.
_Selection of one or two CRITICAL ISSUES.
_Focused discussion / debate / summary papers / analysis on the critical issues.
_Wiki's and papers!
_The reason I have been pushing ET is it has some major advantages going for it:  James Maxlow just gave the conference's keynote on this; he's a world class scientist / expert on it, he will help us with it; and we have you to facilitate it. Until we find all of those credentials for the any of the other theories, they just need to stay back burner. In your list, you present some new names: Farrar, Choi. If they would be willing to join CNPS and become major contributors to a forum discussion, then we could expand your facilitator role (as long as we can get other "junior" facilitators to help you.) We need these key assets identified and committed FIRST before we launch the other topics, not after.
_Bruce

Re: Forum 6 & Wikis
Saturday, September 9, 2017 2:51 PM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Lloyd,
_{1} The problem with establishing a section 6.0 is that it would imply there was an overarching coordination of all the tectonic discussions. As I said, that is too much scope for any one person.
_{2} As for Wikis being "works in process", while they will be, we don't want to set them up to appear that way.  Eventually, we will publish Wikis for both the overall field of Tectonics, and each of the subtopics. But, each wiki has to appear to knowledgeably capture a snapshot of sound thinking.
_For example, the target conventional Wiki for the overall field is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectonics . This is a disaster. So, the goal of our "Critical Wiki" will be to reference the existing wiki as the "mainstream" viewpoint, and then tear it apart. To maintain credibility, we don't want to pitch it as an index of half-baked ideas. We want to present it as a reference document of "ongoing" research. These are two very different approaches. Your table would be the main structure for this Wiki. But, to be clear, this Critical Wiki would not be associated in any way with forum discussions. It will not be put together on the fly where the public will see the discussion and give an take behind it.
_The "work in process" is what the forum is for. That is what the facilitator is supposed to coordinate.
_As for drawing members to CNPS, a wiki is not a good way to do it. That has to be driven by an advertising approach, which displays a large number of wikis. We are not ready to do that, and don't anticipate being ready for at least a year. So much editing is needed.
_The wikis are open to the public.  So is the forum - for reading. So, that's already built in. As for public involvement, that's what my articles talk about. Uncontrolled public access to the internet is being "shut down". While the conventional Wikipedia is still "open to the public", a lot of rules have been added to control access. Every new member has to now go through 6 months of moderation. The Critical Wikis are NOT accessible for public editing. The process for developing them will go through the Forum. The Forum is also access controlled. While I agree with your point of "excitement" for many to access science in progress, the collapse of language and dialog throughout society - which also applies to 70% of the people on the email string - has limited what can be done. As you know, CNPS already has a Youtube channel, plus a weekly live video meeting. Both are largely failures. Why? Neither are generating involvement of many members or drawing new members. Why? That's what my articles are about.
_{3} Your approach has been discussed and rejected. There are very few members capable of producing an acceptable Wiki. Those that are will be asked to be editors. What ANY member can do is write their own blog, publish their own bio on the site, and make their own YouTube videos (for now). All the parts of your next sentence will be done: providing formats, providing guidance for acceptance, and passing judgement on submissions.
_{4} Yes, you are making good headway. But we are a long way from a Wiki page. Go back and look at your own "facilitator guidelines" on the coordination page. If you think you have enough for a Wiki, I'll help you get it started. But the process will not be open for public viewing. You should only focus on one or two Wikis to start with - i.e. maybe the 6.0 wiki and a 6.2 wiki, for example.
_{5} We must have a very different concept of what it means to "annotate" a bibliography. In its most simple form, the annotation is a collection of "keywords" that describe the topics the citation provides substantial material about. Each keyword would have a page number for the section of the document where that topic is best addressed. To give you an idea of a "full annotation", for two of my books, the annotation has over 1600 keywords!  Typically, there would be dozens or hundreds per book or paper. Give me an example of any citation that you think this has been done for? You may be thinking of the TOPIC sort for member papers. This isn't even a start. The board is trying to figure out how we even do it.
_{6} What do you mean by "The comparison table is basically complete." The only thing I can find on the forum is something called "Comparative Geology Special Project", and "Main Claims of Each Theory"; both are in "soft delete" - i.e. not visible to readers. You have just run a poll on it. You were correct in titling it a project. This is a good start, but much more to do. When it is done, that would be a good Wiki.
_{7} This paragraph captures more of the complexity of the tasks ahead. You said, "but the authors and supporters, not facilitators, should do most of the work." That's  true. But what you didn't say was, 'it is the facilitators roll to tell the members, specifically, what tasks they need to do and somehow get them to do that.'  This observation explains why the forum is not proceeding faster than it is. CNPS is, essentially, a VOLUNTEER operation. No one, including the board and executives, are paid for any effort. This is where something else you said comes in, "access to science in progress would be kind of exciting for many readers". That's the approach you need to count on to draw in support. You said the debates would do that. Why are you changing your viewpoint?
_{8} The idea of "focus groups" is good, but not new. We have them already, all over the place. The Board of Directors acts a one group. All the people at the conference were another. But you also already have that ability in your hands. Every facilitator should consider all the readers of their forum as a "targeted focus group". That's what leadership and facilitation are about. Every time you run a poll, that's what it's about. I've been asked to restart the CNPS newsletter. As soon as I get the final tools to do it, every newsletter will turn the whole membership into a focus group.
_Bruce

Re: Re-organizing
Tuesday, September 12, 2017 4:45 PM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Lloyd,
_Good review. Comments embedded.
_Bruce
__On Sep 12, 2017, at 1:43 PM, lloyd kinder wrote:
_L: Hi Bruce.
ORGANIZING. I spent the day yesterday reviewing our emails since early August. I posted the gist of them just for reference at http://forums.naturalphilosophy.org/showthread.php?tid=259 . I'm trying to reorganize everything, especially your many requests, so I can understand it all more clearly & decide how to act on it.
_Q&A. Instead of organizing Q&A like you want, a simple solution for helping readers find what they want is to let volunteers help readers do searches on the forums or in Wikis. To accomplish the Q&A organizing you want seems like it would require many people doing extremely long hours of very boring work. There's no end to questions that readers will have, which means the organizing work would never end.
_B2: I must not be communicating my goals well enough on this. The Q&A organization I envision should be simple to manage. So, we need to find out how we are seeing it differently. Here is a summary of what I am proposing. It is being described as though the process has been set up and is running:
    One or more pages (but not too many) are set up in the structured section as a Q&A SUMMARY. The entries are ordered by question. The questions are grouped by similarity.  Answers provided by posts to the discussion, for any question, are summarized and edited into the page right under their appropriate question.
    The facilitator needs to read and understand (if possible) ALL the posts made to the related forum topic.
    Each post can classified into one of the following 3 categories:
        It addresses an existing question.
        It poses a new question.
        It is something administrative, irrelevant, nonsense or off topic.
    If it addresses an existing question, AND it provides useful information, a very brief description of the point it makes should be added to the answer section under the question it addresses. Each addition includes a title, time and date code so the source post can be found.
    If it poses a new question, the facilitator needs to decide whether the question is appropriate for the discussion. If so, add a brief summary of the new question into the Q&A. If not, there are a number of responses that can be taken:
        Ignore it.
        Delete it.
        Tell the poster to post it somewhere else.
        Ask the poster to clarify it.
So, I don't see where the long hours of work come in.  As for getting volunteers to do searches, I don't think we would find any. That would clearly be boring work.
_OTHER FORUM TOPICS.
_B: There are other topics which have much larger member interest than ET. So, I think the best approach we can take is for me to set those up with the ideas I've been presenting to you. Viewing the results of different styles will give us evidence for how well they work. Try to keep a journal of what you try, and design the processes to produce some measurable metrics.
_L: I've started importing discussion of Franklin's Poselectron Sea theory etc to 5.3.5 Gravity section.
_B2: Why are you changing your focus from ET? If you want more people to post to ET, we have to do some marketing. But, if you feel the workload in ET is already to heavy, why are others needed?  If you have a good workload going in ET, you should already by formulating publishable papers and Wikis. What am I missing?
_L: PUBLIC ACCESS.
_B: The wikis are open to the public. So is the forum - for reading. So, that's already built in.
_L: I just checked and the forums are not accessible to the public. PS, I believe my Wiki idea was not half-baked.
_B2: Why do you say the forums are not accessible to the public? Yes, people have to register as guests, but anyone can do that and read the forum, without having to join CNPS.
_L: DEBATES.
_B: "Access to science in progress would be kind of exciting for many readers".
_That's the approach you need to count on to draw in support. You said the debates would do that. Why are you changing your viewpoint?
_L: The people I've contacted don't seem to want to join the CNPS forums, maybe partly because they can't see what it's like before registering. Also, when I talked about debates before, I usually meant discussions, which are much easier to carry out and get good info from and are probably more efficient.
_B2: It's important to be clear on each point you are making. Anyone can "see what the forum is like" before becoming a CNPS member. They can't read the forum unless they register as a guest. But it does not require them to submit any sensitive information; there is no charge; and registering does not commit them to anything. They don't get advertising or anything. If they want to participate in discussion, they do have to join - except for special cases. If there is a person with well established contributions to the topic, and their posts to discussions elsewhere prove they don't act like trolls, we can give them temporary access.
_L: ANNOTATION. What you call an annotated bibliography seems to be what I normally call an index. Have you checked it out to see how long it would take to do that? The most efficient method seems to be to make material searchable on the forums and in the Wikis.
_B2: The material on the forums and Wikis is searchable. The problem with that is, every time a person searches for some term that has already been searched before, it is a duplication of effort. The current goal is to get authors to annotate their own publications. The reward they get for that is inclusion on a list of annotated publications. It will quickly become clear that such publications get far more attention.
_L: COORDINATION.
_B: The "work in process" is what the forum is for. That is what the facilitator is supposed to coordinate.
_L: I've been focused on the Q&A and Comparison Table and promoting Discussions etc. So I haven't gotten to the Coordinating yet. Maybe I will after getting this all organized today or so.
_B2: You have enough in the comparison table for now.  It can be expanded later. Once we find out why the Q&A is taking so much effort, and change that, you should have the time for coordination.
- Good Day. Lloyd

Re: CNPS Progress - Forum
Wednesday, September 20, 2017 9:12 AM
From: "Bruce Nappi"
_Lloyd,
_While you replied to David with an offer to help with the website ( and thanks for that), your email was mostly about the forum geology effort. Let me answer those questions.
_CNPS still needs to formulate a concept for how to work with NCGT. From my viewpoint, CNPS has 2 goals: new members; getting key insights for ongoing forum discussions. In return, we would be providing NCGT with potential: new readers; new articles. The key is how to promote this.
_NCGT does not have members. It only has readers and editors. The CNPS Forum can not be opened to the public because it would be trashed by mainstream Trolls. So, the CNPS Forum has to remain open for "public" read-only, and interaction by CNPS members. The "trade" of value that I was thinking about could be: giving a handful of NCGT editors and special scientists temporary "visiting scholar" privileges on the forum. They are essentially equal to member permissions but under a separate group name (visiting scholars for example) so we can easily keep track of them. These scholars would be directed to support an ongoing forum discussion. Right now, Expansion Tectonics is the only major geology discussion. They could bring new ideas into that discussion, but only as critiques or support of ET. A item of value for them, related to other geology theories, would be an endorsement of their cooperation in the Newsletter. That might get them some readers. But adding new topics to the forum would totally be based on CNPS member requests.
_And to make my overall goal for the forum clear, it is to DO REAL SCIENCE. It's not just idle chatter like the email string, that get's lost in the internet landfill. The goal I'm trying to reach is: 1. make new discoveries; 2. publish them in multiple papers with CNPS member names as authors, and CNPS credit as the sponsor, coordinator; 3. publish related Wikis; 4. create related videos (etc. supporting Davids new push).
_So the only collaboration I can think of outside the ideas listed above would be some kind of discount deals. For example, CNPS members get 10% off NCGT publications, and NCGT readers get 10% off CNPS membership - something like that. But this is a totally emotional sell because of the low cost of both periodicals and CNPS membership. What ideas do you have for "close collaboration"? As I said, we can give NCGT and its new theories exposure in the Newsletter and the 1. Small forums sandbox. But any major push in the forum depends on CNPS member interest.
_Bruce

2
CNPS Structured Discussion / Plan & Potential Schedule
« Last post by Admin on August 13, 2017, 03:38:51 pm »
 Plan
 4.9 Debates! Use a new Structured Communication approach
 4.10 Science Court! like a Congressional hearing to gather information and organize information
 4.11 Implement the Critical Wikipedia: make a Critical Wikipedia page a goal for Structured Discussions in the Forum.
 4.12 <Get reviewers &> Start Peer Review <& use it for okaying CNPS Wiki topics>
 
 Potential Schedule
 "I+" means "I (Lloyd) and possibly others".
 .Aug10-20 (4.9, I+) Start organizing debates on Geology & ask people to join in debating or in observing
 .Aug10-31 (I+) List the main claims for some of the theories
 .Aug15-17 (Bruce + I) Try some practice debates in etherpad and chatroom
 .Aug20-31 (I + debaters) Try etherpads and chatrooms and copy chat highlights to Forum
 .Sep1-15 (4.10+4.12, I + others) Evaluate debate claims = peer review
 .Sep15 (4.11, I+) Create a Wiki page from info from debates>
3
CNPS Structured Discussion / Comparing ET with Other Geology Theories
« Last post by Admin on August 08, 2017, 08:33:37 am »
Goal is to make a Table that compares Expansion Tectonic theory with other Geological theories.

First, I'm listing CNPS papers on ET.

This is the present alphabetic arrangement with possible main topics added before each title. Some of the titles may be miscategorized. After this will be the list arranged alphabetically by subject.

Category: Expansion Tectonics

__A
_Africa) _On The Ages of African Land-Surfaces
_Galaxies) _An Analysis of 900 Rotation Curves of Southern Sky Spiral Galaxies: Are the Dynamics Constrained to Discrete States?
_Tectonics) _Architectonics of the Earth
_Satellites) _Are Artificial Satellites Orbits Influenced by an Expanding Earth?
_Atlas) _Atlas of Continental Displacement, 200 Million Years to the Present
__B
_Biogeography) _Biogeography in a Changing World
__C
_ZPEnergy) _Cosmology and the Zero Point Energy
_ZPEnergy<?>) _Cosmology and the Zerto Point Energy
_Theories) _Creeds of Physics
_ContainerSpace) _A Critical Note Concerning Conventional Container Space Concepts
_Crust) _Crustal development and sea level : with special reference to the geological development of southwest Japan and adjacent seas
__D
_Dinosaurs) _Dinosaurs and the Expanding Earth - Second edition (ebook)
_QM<?>) _Discrete Time Realizations of Quantum Mechanics and their Possible Experimental Tests
__E
_Palaeo-Magnetism) _Early Palaeozoic Palaeo-Magnetism and Biogeography - Plate tectonics or Expansion?
_GeoComplexity) _Earth Complexity vs. Plate Tectonic Simplicity
_Expansion) _Is the Earth Expanding (Dehnt sich die Erde aus?)
_NebHyp+Subduction) _Earth IS Expanding Rapidly: Kant's Nebular Hypothesis and Subduction are False
_ObjectionsSolved) _Earth Expansion Major Objections Solved
_Earthquakes) _Earth Expansion and the Prediction of Earthquakes and Volcanicism
_MassIncrease) _Earth Expansion Requires Increase in Mass
_PermianClimate) _The Earth Expansion Theory and the Climatic History of the Lower Permian
_Universe) _Earth, Universe, Cosmos
_Expansion) _Earth is Unquestionably Growing and Expanding
_Evidence) _Education Concept of Earths Expansion: Main Grounds, Space-Geodetic and Paleomagnetic Evidence, Metallogenic Consequences
_Electrodynamic) _Electrodynamic Origin of Gravitational Forces
_Galaxies) _Empirical Evidence on the Creation of Galaxies and Quasars
_Electrodynamics) _Evidence For Weber-Wesley Electrodynamics
_Expansion) _An Evolutionary Earth Expansion Hypothesis
_Continents) _The Expanded Earth: The Continents Positioned by Radical Movement Due to Expansion; a Craftsmans Look at the Globe
_Expansion) _Expanding Earth?
_Expansion) _The Expanding Earth
_Expansion) _Why the Expanding Earth?
_Sea-FloorSpreading) _An Expanding Earth on the Basis of Sea-Floor Spreading and Subduction Rates
_Causes) _The Expanding Earth: Evidence, Causes and Effects
_Gravity) _The Expanding Earth: Evidence From Temporary Gravity Fields and Space-Geodetic Data
_Gyrotation) _The Expanding Earth: Is the Inflation of Heavenly Bodies Caused by Reoriented Particles under Gyrotation Fields?
_InnerCore) _The Expanding Earth : The Inflation of Heavenly Bodies Demands for a Compression-Free Inner Core
_Catastrophism) _Expanding Earth, Or Natural Catastrophism
_Expansion) _The Expanding Earth: A Sound Idea for the New Millenium
_Cause) _Our Expanding Earth, the Ultimate Cause
_Overview) _Expansion Tectonics: An Overview
__F
_Universe) _Finite Theory of the Universe, Dark Matter Disproof and Faster-Than-Light Speed
_Fixed-Earth) _Fixed-Earth and Expanding-Earth Theories -- Time for a Paradigm Shift? -- Version 2
_Cartography) _Fossils, frogs, floating islands and expanding Earth in changing-radius cartography
_Expansion) _The Fourth Revolt
_Fuels) _Fuels: A New Theory (Second Edition)
__G
_Causes) _Geological-Geophysical Proofs and Possible Causes of Earth Expansion
_Eduction) _Global Eduction Tectonics of the Expanding Earth
_Explanation) _Global Expansion Tectonics - A More Rational Explanation
_PhysicsChallenge) _Global Expansion Tectonics: A Significant Challenge for Physics
_Models) _Global Models of the Expanding Earth
_InflatingSun) _On the Gravitational Constant of Our Inflating Sun and On the Origin of the Stars' Lifecycle
_Gravito-MagneticInflation) _The Gravito-Magnetic Inflation of Rotating Bodies and the Nature of Mass and Matter
_Gravitomagnetism) _Gravitomagnetism: Successes in Explaining the Cosmos
_Earthquakes) _Great And Old Earthquakes Against Great And Old Paradigms ? Paradoxes, Historical Roots, Alternative Answers
_Expansion) _The Growing and Developing Earth
_Expansion) _The Growing Earth
__H
_Hydrocarbons) _Hydrocarbons in the Context of a Solid, Quantified, Growing and Radiating Earth
__I
_Sphere-Cylinder) _Interbasis "Sphere-Cylinder" Expansions for the Oscillator in the Three-Dimensional Space of Constant Positive Curvature
__L
_Expansion) _The Land of No Horizon
_Subduction) _Is Large Scale Subduction Made Unlikely By The Mediterranean Deep Seismicity?
_Impacts) _Lava Flows from Disruption of Crust at the Antipode of Large Meteorite Impacts
_Relativity<?>) _Le Verrier Historical Mistake that Created Relativity Stupidity
_Light) _Light Propagation in an Expanding Universe
_AstronomicalObjects) _Limitations on Viewing Distant Astronomical Objects
__M
_Hoax) _Mankind's Greatest Hoax
_Plumes) _Mantle Plumes and Dynamics of the Earth Interior - Towards a New Model
_SunVelocity) _Marinov's Toothed-Wheels Measurement of Absolute Velocity of Solar System
_Mountains) _On the Mechanism of Mountain Building and Folding
_Plates) _Migrating Fossils, Moving Plates and an Expanding Earth
__N
_EarthInterior) _A New Dynamic Conception Of The Internal Constitution Of The Earth
_BlackHoles<?>) _The No-Hair Theorem Parameters can be Reduced to solely the Black Hole's Specific Angular Momentum
_RottnestIsland) _Nuteeriat: Nut Trees, the Expanding Earth, Rottnest Island, and All That
__O
_Granite) _The Origin of Granite and Continental Masses in an Expanding Earth
_Mountains) _The Origin of Mountains
_UniversalSystems) _Origins of Universal Systems
_OrogenicModel) _An Orogenic Model Consistent with Earth Expansion
_Hilgenberg) _Ott Christoph Hilgenberg in twentieth-century geophysics
__P
_Palaeomagnetic) _Palaeomagnetic Evidence Relevant To A Change In The Earth's Radius
_Palaeopoles) _Palaeopoles on an Expanding Earth: A Comparison Between Synthetic and Real Data Sets
_Comprehensive) _Five Para-Myths and One Comprehensive Proposition in Geology
_Redshifts) _Periodicity in Extragalactic Redshifts
_Philosophy) _A Philosophy of the Expanding Earth and Universe
_SouthernHemisphere) _Physical Explanation for Greater Earth Expansion in the Southern Hemisphere
_Diamagnetism) _The Pivoted Current Element and Diamagnetism
_Expansion) _Is Planet Earth Expanding?
_Eocene) _Planet Earth Expanding and Eocene Tectonic Event
_Dynamics) _Beyond Plate Tectonics: 'Plate' Dynamics
_PT) _Plate Tectonics and this Expanding Earth
_PT) _Is Plate Tectonics Standing the Test of Time
_PT) _Plate Tectonics Subducted
_Microphysics) _On the Possibility of a Rationalistic Approach to Microphysics
_DarkMatter) _Possible Relation Between Earth Expansion and Dark Matter
_DeepDrilling) _The Primordially Hydridic Character of our Planet and Proving it by Deep Drilling
_Plates) _Principles of Plate Movements on the Expanding Earth
__R
_Expansion) _Rapid Earth Expansion: An Eclectic View
_IncreasingGravity) _Relationship Between Gravity and Evolution: The Theory of the Increasing of Gravity
_PolarMotion) _Releaions Among Expanding earth, TPW, and Polar Motion
__S
_Test) _A Simple Physical Test of Earth Expansion
_SunVelocity) _A Simplified Repetition of Silvertooth's Measurement of the Absolute Velocity of the Solar System
_Expansion) _Once a Smaller Earth
_Expansion) _The Solid, Quantified, Growing and Radiating Earth
_Electron) _On the Space-time Structure of the Electron
_Planets) _The Spacing of Planets: The Solution to a 400-Year Mystery
_Subduction) _Subduction: The Extent and Duration
_Superluminal<?>) _On Superluminal Velocities
_ST) _Surge Tectonics: A New Hypothesis of Global Geodynamics
__T
_DeepSeismicData) _The tectonic structure of the continental lithosphere considered in the light of the expanding Earth theory? a proposal of a new interpretation of deep seismic data
_IslandArcs) _Tension - Gravitational Model of Island Arcs
_Expansion?) _Terra non Firma Earth
_PalaeomagneticData) _A Test of Earth Expansion Hypotheses by Means of Palaeomagnetic Data
_Theories) _Theories of the Earth and Universe: A History of Dogma in the Earth Sciences
_Expansion) _The Theory of the Expanding Earth
_Thermal) _The Thermal Expansion of the Earth
__V
_Unorthodoxy) _A Venture in Unorthodoxy
_Petroleum) _Voyage of Discovery: A History of Ideas About the Earth with a New Understanding of the Global Resources of Water and Petroleum and the Problems of Climate Change
__W
_Sea-floors) _Wandering Continents and Spreading Sea-floors on an Expanding Earth

-------------------------------------------------------

Category: Expansion Tectonics (by Subject)

_Africa) _On The Ages of African Land-Surfaces
_AstronomicalObjects) _Limitations on Viewing Distant Astronomical Objects
_Atlas) _Atlas of Continental Displacement, 200 Million Years to the Present
_Biogeography) _Biogeography in a Changing World
_BlackHoles<?>) _The No-Hair Theorem Parameters can be Reduced to solely the Black Hole's Specific Angular Momentum
_Cartography) _Fossils, frogs, floating islands and expanding Earth in changing-radius cartography
_Catastrophism) _Expanding Earth, Or Natural Catastrophism
_Cause) _Our Expanding Earth, the Ultimate Cause
_Causes) _Geological-Geophysical Proofs and Possible Causes of Earth Expansion
_Causes) _The Expanding Earth: Evidence, Causes and Effects
_Comprehensive) _Five Para-Myths and One Comprehensive Proposition in Geology
_ContainerSpace) _A Critical Note Concerning Conventional Container Space Concepts
_Continents) _The Expanded Earth: The Continents Positioned by Radical Movement Due to Expansion; a Craftsmans Look at the Globe
_Crust) _Crustal development and sea level : with special reference to the geological development of southwest Japan and adjacent seas
_DarkMatter) _Possible Relation Between Earth Expansion and Dark Matter
_DeepDrilling) _The Primordially Hydridic Character of our Planet and Proving it by Deep Drilling
_DeepSeismicData) _The tectonic structure of the continental lithosphere considered in the light of the expanding Earth theory? a proposal of a new interpretation of deep seismic data
_Diamagnetism) _The Pivoted Current Element and Diamagnetism
_Dinosaurs) _Dinosaurs and the Expanding Earth - Second edition (ebook)
_Dynamics) _Beyond Plate Tectonics: 'Plate' Dynamics
_EarthInterior) _A New Dynamic Conception Of The Internal Constitution Of The Earth
_Earthquakes) _Earth Expansion and the Prediction of Earthquakes and Volcanicism
_Earthquakes) _Great And Old Earthquakes Against Great And Old Paradigms ? Paradoxes, Historical Roots, Alternative Answers
_Eduction) _Global Eduction Tectonics of the Expanding Earth
_Electrodynamic) _Electrodynamic Origin of Gravitational Forces
_Electrodynamics) _Evidence For Weber-Wesley Electrodynamics
_Electron) _On the Space-time Structure of the Electron
_Eocene) _Planet Earth Expanding and Eocene Tectonic Event
_Evidence) _Education Concept of Earths Expansion: Main Grounds, Space-Geodetic and Paleomagnetic Evidence, Metallogenic Consequences
_Expansion?) _Terra non Firma Earth
_Expansion) _An Evolutionary Earth Expansion Hypothesis
_Expansion) _Earth is Unquestionably Growing and Expanding
_Expansion) _Expanding Earth?
_Expansion) _Is Planet Earth Expanding?
_Expansion) _Is the Earth Expanding (Dehnt sich die Erde aus?)
_Expansion) _Once a Smaller Earth
_Expansion) _Rapid Earth Expansion: An Eclectic View
_Expansion) _The Expanding Earth
_Expansion) _The Expanding Earth: A Sound Idea for the New Millenium
_Expansion) _The Fourth Revolt
_Expansion) _The Growing and Developing Earth
_Expansion) _The Growing Earth
_Expansion) _The Land of No Horizon
_Expansion) _The Solid, Quantified, Growing and Radiating Earth
_Expansion) _The Theory of the Expanding Earth
_Expansion) _Why the Expanding Earth?
_Explanation) _Global Expansion Tectonics - A More Rational Explanation
_Fixed-Earth) _Fixed-Earth and Expanding-Earth Theories -- Time for a Paradigm Shift? -- Version 2
_Fuels) _Fuels: A New Theory (Second Edition)
_Galaxies) _An Analysis of 900 Rotation Curves of Southern Sky Spiral Galaxies: Are the Dynamics Constrained to Discrete States?
_Galaxies) _Empirical Evidence on the Creation of Galaxies and Quasars
_GeoComplexity) _Earth Complexity vs. Plate Tectonic Simplicity
_Granite) _The Origin of Granite and Continental Masses in an Expanding Earth
_Gravito-MagneticInflation) _The Gravito-Magnetic Inflation of Rotating Bodies and the Nature of Mass and Matter
_Gravitomagnetism) _Gravitomagnetism: Successes in Explaining the Cosmos
_Gravity) _The Expanding Earth: Evidence From Temporary Gravity Fields and Space-Geodetic Data
_Gyrotation) _The Expanding Earth: Is the Inflation of Heavenly Bodies Caused by Reoriented Particles under Gyrotation Fields?
_Hilgenberg) _Ott Christoph Hilgenberg in twentieth-century geophysics
_Hoax) _Mankind's Greatest Hoax
_Hydrocarbons) _Hydrocarbons in the Context of a Solid, Quantified, Growing and Radiating Earth
_Impacts) _Lava Flows from Disruption of Crust at the Antipode of Large Meteorite Impacts
_IncreasingGravity) _Relationship Between Gravity and Evolution: The Theory of the Increasing of Gravity
_InflatingSun) _On the Gravitational Constant of Our Inflating Sun and On the Origin of the Stars' Lifecycle
_InnerCore) _The Expanding Earth : The Inflation of Heavenly Bodies Demands for a Compression-Free Inner Core
_IslandArcs) _Tension - Gravitational Model of Island Arcs
_Light) _Light Propagation in an Expanding Universe
_MassIncrease) _Earth Expansion Requires Increase in Mass
_Microphysics) _On the Possibility of a Rationalistic Approach to Microphysics
_Models) _Global Models of the Expanding Earth
_Mountains) _On the Mechanism of Mountain Building and Folding
_Mountains) _The Origin of Mountains
_NebHyp+Subduction) _Earth IS Expanding Rapidly: Kant's Nebular Hypothesis and Subduction are False
_ObjectionsSolved) _Earth Expansion Major Objections Solved
_OrogenicModel) _An Orogenic Model Consistent with Earth Expansion
_Overview) _Expansion Tectonics: An Overview
_Palaeo-Magnetism) _Early Palaeozoic Palaeo-Magnetism and Biogeography - Plate tectonics or Expansion?
_Palaeomagnetic) _Palaeomagnetic Evidence Relevant To A Change In The Earth's Radius
_PalaeomagneticData) _A Test of Earth Expansion Hypotheses by Means of Palaeomagnetic Data
_Palaeopoles) _Palaeopoles on an Expanding Earth: A Comparison Between Synthetic and Real Data Sets
_PermianClimate) _The Earth Expansion Theory and the Climatic History of the Lower Permian
_Petroleum) _Voyage of Discovery: A History of Ideas About the Earth with a New Understanding of the Global Resources of Water and Petroleum and the Problems of Climate Change
_Philosophy) _A Philosophy of the Expanding Earth and Universe
_PhysicsChallenge) _Global Expansion Tectonics: A Significant Challenge for Physics
_Planets) _The Spacing of Planets: The Solution to a 400-Year Mystery
_Plates) _Migrating Fossils, Moving Plates and an Expanding Earth
_Plates) _Principles of Plate Movements on the Expanding Earth
_Plumes) _Mantle Plumes and Dynamics of the Earth Interior - Towards a New Model
_PolarMotion) _Releaions Among Expanding earth, TPW, and Polar Motion
_PT) _Is Plate Tectonics Standing the Test of Time
_PT) _Plate Tectonics and this Expanding Earth
_PT) _Plate Tectonics Subducted
_QM<?>) _Discrete Time Realizations of Quantum Mechanics and their Possible Experimental Tests
_Redshifts) _Periodicity in Extragalactic Redshifts
_Relativity<?>) _Le Verrier Historical Mistake that Created Relativity Stupidity
_RottnestIsland) _Nuteeriat: Nut Trees, the Expanding Earth, Rottnest Island, and All That
_Satellites) _Are Artificial Satellites Orbits Influenced by an Expanding Earth?
_Sea-floors) _Wandering Continents and Spreading Sea-floors on an Expanding Earth
_Sea-FloorSpreading) _An Expanding Earth on the Basis of Sea-Floor Spreading and Subduction Rates
_SouthernHemisphere) _Physical Explanation for Greater Earth Expansion in the Southern Hemisphere
_Sphere-Cylinder) _Interbasis "Sphere-Cylinder" Expansions for the Oscillator in the Three-Dimensional Space of Constant Positive Curvature
_ST) _Surge Tectonics: A New Hypothesis of Global Geodynamics
_Subduction) _Is Large Scale Subduction Made Unlikely By The Mediterranean Deep Seismicity?
_Subduction) _Subduction: The Extent and Duration
_SunVelocity) _A Simplified Repetition of Silvertooth's Measurement of the Absolute Velocity of the Solar System
_SunVelocity) _Marinov's Toothed-Wheels Measurement of Absolute Velocity of Solar System
_Superluminal<?>) _On Superluminal Velocities
_Tectonics) _Architectonics of the Earth
_Test) _A Simple Physical Test of Earth Expansion
_Theories) _Creeds of Physics
_Theories) _Theories of the Earth and Universe: A History of Dogma in the Earth Sciences
_Thermal) _The Thermal Expansion of the Earth
_UniversalSystems) _Origins of Universal Systems
_Universe) _Earth, Universe, Cosmos
_Universe) _Finite Theory of the Universe, Dark Matter Disproof and Faster-Than-Light Speed
_Unorthodoxy) _A Venture in Unorthodoxy
_ZPEnergy) _Cosmology and the Zero Point Energy
_ZPEnergy<?>) _Cosmology and the Zerto Point Energy
4
Mike Messages / Re: Robert on Collaboration
« Last post by Admin on June 29, 2017, 11:16:28 pm »

Subject: Catastrophism
Tue, May 23, 2017 12:30 pm
To: <mike@newgeology.us>
_Thanks a lot for the quotes you gave me about crustal shortening etc.
_I asked Robert to discuss our disagreements on catastrophism, because I think it would settle our differences.
_I also started a paper on Impact-Flood Catastrophism on the CNPS forum at http://forums.naturalphilosophy.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=127
_Here's what I wrote. Do you suggest any corrections or additions to the list?
_IMPACT-FLOOD CATASTROPHISM: ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS & DEFINITIONS
_Planetoid: any rocky body in outer space: i.e. meteor, comet, asteroid, moon, rocky planet
_Recent Planetoidal Near-Collision/s: planetoid/s coming close enough to Earth to raise high tides
_Megatides/Megatsunamis: tides/tsunamis high enough to deposit sedimentary rock strata
_Impacts: fall of planetoids on Earth's surface
_Megasequence: conforming strata between unconforming strata
_Megasequences Deposition: deposition of conforming strata
_Supercontinent: large continent composed of smaller continents
_Supercontinent Breakup: breakup of a supercontinent into smaller continents due to impact/s
_Impact Orogeny: mountain uplift caused by continent breakup
_Impact Volcanism: volcanic eruptions caused by impacts
_Radiometric Dating: using radioactive decay in rock to estimate the time it formed
_Radiometric Dating Errors: errors in estimating ages of rock due to changing decay rates
_Gradualism: the theory that large-scale geological features change very gradually, not rapidly
_Gradualism Errors: overlooking the fact that large-scale cataclysms can cause rapid geological changes
_Fossilization: formation of fossils during strata deposition
_Atmosphere Shrinkage: shrinkage of the atmosphere due to rapid losses to space
_Gigantism: tendency of plants and animals to grow to giant size
_End of Gigantism: loss of conditions favoring gigantism
_Ice Age: time of widespread glaciation
_Ancient Myths: ancient anthropomorphic reports about celestial conditions before, during and after cataclysms
_Advanced Ancient Civilization: high tech civilization in ancient times, destroyed by cataclysms

---

Wednesday, May 24, 2017 7:30 PM
From: mike@newgeology.us
_You are taking real initiative in this project.  As requested, my wording of your list is below.
_IMPACT GENERATED FLOOD CATASTROPHISM - ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS & DEFINITIONS
_Planetoid: any rocky body in outer space: i.e. meteor, comet, asteroid, moon, rocky planet
_Planetoid Near-Collision/s: the possibility that one or more planetoids came close enough to Earth to raise high tides
_Megatides/Megatsunamis: tides/tsunamis large enough to deposit sedimentary rock strata
_Impacts: fall of planetoids onto Earth's surface
_Megasequence: conforming strata between unconformities
_Megasequence Deposition: deposition of conforming strata
_Supercontinent: large continent composed of smaller landmasses
_Supercontinent Breakup: breakup of a supercontinent into separate continents
_Impact Orogeny: mountain uplift caused by rapid continent breakup following a giant planetoid impact
_Impact Volcanism: volcanic eruption caused directly or indirectly by planetoid impact
_Radiometric Dating: using radioactive decay and its products to determine age
_Radiometric Dating Errors: errors due to invalid assumptions in radiometric dating
_Gradualism: the theory that large-scale geological features change very gradually, not rapidly; the present is the key to the past
_Gradualism Errors: overlooking the influence of cataclysms on geology
_Fossilization: burial of organisms and/or evidence of their activity during strata deposition
_Atmosphere Shrinkage: dissipation of the atmosphere due to rapid loss of gas into outer space
_Gigantism: tendency of plants and animals to grow to giant size
_End of Gigantism: loss of conditions favoring gigantism
_Ice Age: period of extensive glaciation
_Ancient Celestial Catastrophic Myths: ancient human stories about celestial conditions before, during and after cataclysms
_Advanced Ancient Civilization: proposed high tech civilization in ancient times, allegedly destroyed by cataclysm

---

_Hi Mike. Robert Farrar was discussing granite a couple weeks ago. I lived in New Hampshire a few years ago and noticed that their granite seems to be metamorphosed sedimentary rock. Do you know why sometimes the sedimentary rocks in mountain ranges metamorphosed, while most of the time, I think, they remained sedimentary? Where the strata are folded in mountain ranges, would those be metamorphosed, or not? My impression was that they're sedimentary, but I'm starting to suspect that they must metamorphose. Do you agree or not? Could most or all granites be metamorphosed sedimentary rock?
_Following are passages from a recent post by Robert in a different thread. Could you comment on what you agree and disagree with? He seems to contradict himself a little regarding sedimentary rock.
_Re: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics
Postby Robertus Maximus » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:10 pm
_... how ... do we explain the dual nature of the Earth’s crust?
_... I have suggested that Earth may well contain a hollow
_such a hollow would serve as a reservoir for hydrogen, methane, ammonia, silane etc.
_Results from the Kola Super-deep borehole show a counter-intuitive exponential increase of rock porosity with depth.
_Such porosity would enable elements from deep within the Earth to migrate to the surface.
_Near the surface upwelling methane is gradually oxidised CH4 + O2 = 2H2O + C, leaving behind vast deposits of oil and coal.
_... Clearly upwelling methane contributes to Earth’s water budget.
_The principal ... volcanic gases ... are H2O, H2,CH4 (and other hydrocarbons), O2, CO, CO2" [etc].
_It would seem that most volcanic eruptions have less to do with the popular picture of molten rock and more to do with upwelling methane reacting with plentiful amounts of oxygen in the Earth’s crust.
_Upwelling silane too, is oxidised as it approaches the surface....

_The origin of the ‘continental crust’
_Basalt is one of the most common rock types found on Earth and ... on all the terrestrial planets.
_... On Earth the largest occurrences of basalt are on the ocean floor which is almost completely made up of basalt.
_On the continents themselves we find outpourings of rock normally associated with the ocean floor - basalt is the rock most typical of large igneous provinces.
_... “Ancient Precambrian basalts are usually only found in fold and thrust belts, and are often heavily metamorphosed.”
_... Upon the Earth’s basaltic foundation we find features not found on the other terrestrial planets, the continents.
_We have previously seen that a product of the silane - oxygen reaction is silica
_is it possible that the continents themselves formed from the outgassing of silicon dioxide?
_We could picture the early Earth as being Venus-like in its topographic appearance with very little relief.
_Over time outpourings of silica collected, perhaps around localised elevated regions of the basaltic ‘primary’ crust or areas undergoing outgassing.
_Water collected initially in depressions in the basaltic ‘primary’ crust.
_... Modern day analogous processes would include deep sea vents, particularly ‘white smokers’ which emit minerals comprising barium, calcium and silicon.
_Such vents are known to develop ‘chimneys’,
_geomorphic and geologic structures on Earth today show a resemblance to ‘chimneys’ formed long-ago;
_they are variously described as ‘Limestone pillars’, ’Sand-columns’, ’Sandstone pillars’, ‘Pipes’, and perhaps we could include ‘Monadnocks’ and ‘Inselbergs’.
_On land we find geysers leave similar silica deposits.
_In North Africa today we find a geological feature known as the ‘Richat Structure’.
_... Its centre consists of a siliceous breccia covering an area that is at least 30 kilometres (19 mi) in diameter.
_“Exposed within the interior of the Richat Structure are a variety of intrusive and extrusive igneous rocks.
_They include rhyolitic volcanic rocks, gabbros, carbonatites and kimberlites. The rhyolitic rocks consist of lava flows and hydrothermally altered tuffaceous rocks that are part of two distinct eruptive centers, which are interpreted to be the eroded remains of two maars.
_... These intrusive igneous rocks are interpreted as indicating the presence of a large alkaline igneous intrusion that currently underlies the Richat Structure and created it by uplifting the overlying rock.

_... Sedimentary Basins and the Precambrian
_... In light of what I have suggested above is it possible that sedimentary basins are not ‘sedimentary’ at all, rather they are ‘outgassing’ or ‘eruptive’ basins?
_... Lowermost ‘sedimentary’ rocks in such basins we can reclassify as ‘pre-sedimentary’ rocks, lacking fossils geologists would assign them to the Precambrian.
_Upper layers would consist of re-worked ‘pre-sedimentary’ rocks, as sedimentary rocks that contain fossils geologists would assign these rock formations to the Phanerozoic.

_... Greenstone Belts
_... “Greenstone belts are primarily formed of volcanic rocks, dominated by basalt, with minor sedimentary rocks inter-leaving the volcanic formations.
_Through time, the degree of sediment contained within greenstone belts has risen, and the amount of ultramafic rock (either as layered intrusions or as volcanic komatiite) has decreased.
_“Sedimentary sequences within greenstone belts comprise both clastic (e.g., conglomerate, quartz arenite, shale and graywacke) and chemically precipitated (e.g., banded iron formation and chert) components.
_... The observed increase in sediment and decrease in basalt type rocks “through time” is explained by what I have proposed here i.e. accumulated silica outgassing.
...
5
CNPS Structured Discussion / BN-LK Discussion Highlights
« Last post by Admin on June 14, 2017, 11:05:08 pm »
__« April 22, 2017, 01:20:31 pm »
Major Unexplained Science Facts & Alternative Models
LK Ideas for Organizing a Wiki
1. Plans to Improve the Scientific Method
2. List Major Fields of Science
3. List Major Science Facts & Flaws for Main CNPS Wiki Topics
(See Sample Wiki thread.)
Paraphrasing Bruce's Forum/Wiki Ideas
a. Tell readers the goal is to produce one or more papers and Wikis.
- Ask readers to submit other flaws &/or alternative theories
b. To structure the topic put it into the forum as 3 co-located threads.
- Create an outline of the local discussion & put it in your “coordination” post.
- Use Mark’s MIT MAP concepts: Questions ( ? ),  Ideas ( lightbulb),  pros and cons (thumbs up and down ) etc.
Aether Lattice Holes Theory
DEMOCRACY:
__« April 23, 2017, 11:37:33 am »
Invite: TB Members possibly interested in helping Improve Science:
bdw000, BirdyNumNums, Brigit Bara, Chan Rasjid, chut, Cubit32, D_Archer, dd6, Elder, fractal-geoff, GaryN, GenesisAria, Grey Cloud, jacmac, JCG, JeffreyW, JHL, jimmcginn, Keith Ness, Kuldebar, Melusine, philalethes, Phorce, phyllotaxis, Pi sees, Plasmatic, pln2bz, popster1, RayTomes, Roshi, Rushthezeppelin, saul, seasmith, Solar, Sparky, StefanR, trevbus, Webbman, Zelectric, ZenMonkeyNZ, Zyxzevn
__« April 23, 2017, 11:50:36 am »
RESOURCES
__« May 07, 2017, 12:08:53 pm »
<BN: Phone
Catastrophism Topic
Expansion Tectonics
So, a way to find people for your ideas is to post a request on that forum
A second way is to compose an article for the monthly newsletter
getting the newsletter, send a note directly to David de Hilster
Third, there is a blog on the main website
Re sedimentary rock strata, first do some literature analysis on the history of this topic
LK's List of Topics
I put a new forum in there for you: The Scientific Method.
The list of facts and flaws is one of the issues I wanted to talk to you about directly.
__May 8, 9AM
do a test right here on FUNDAY
__« May 11, 2017, 05:14:55 pm »
Message to Dave Talbott re Wiki
I started a thread called, Need Data to Help Create Alternative Science Wiki
I have gotten a Catastrophism board and E.U. boards etc at the CNPS forum.
__Postby Lloyd » Thu May 11, 2017 4:06 pm
Initial preferred topics for discussion are:
Catastrophism: Ancient Global Cataclysm
Mythology: Ancient Myths
Earth Sciences: Global Tectonics
Astronomy: Solar Science
__« May 21, 2017, 01:56:44 pm »
>BN: the CNPS Wiki a collection of alternative science papers
would help to establish a system for evaluating them
Making the list of essential elements of each theory or claim
then a process for evaluating each element
CNPS could publicize the best theories
__Sunday, May 21, 2017 2:45 PM
<Bruce: find me ANY MM reports
system for evaluating is my next TOP priority
publishing a summary of what elements of ALL the papers were good breakthroughs
reward great Peer Reviewers
Peer Review Guidelines [from web search]
__5/23/17 8:50AM
>Bruce: date on the threads
experiment with "peer reviewers"
__« May 23, 2017, 09:21:11 pm »
"sticky" function
date labeling
email string
"probable" reviews would give a theory a high place in a WIKI
summary reference to the dissents
many theories submitted
PHOTON; challenge this definition
prioritizing
__5/23 9 PM
>Bruce: date labeling
P.U.T structured format
invite members
Space Lattice Theory
rate P.U.T.
__Wednesday, May 24, 2017 4:38 PM
<Bruce: suggest a better title
membership fee
Lattice Theory
rating a few P.U.T. Elements
__5/24 7:33 PM
Hi Bruce: discussion thread
I started 3 threads for "theory rating"
I included the reasons for my I-ratings
__« May 26, 2017, 07:28:59 pm »
<BN: Inviting members
"discussion summary" as a "status report"
"coordination": coordination of the discussion
"external inputs": to focus or promote the discussion
"documentation"
Possible solution
__May 26, 2017, at 12:55 AM
>Bruce: Why wouldn't each topic in the forum have a Working Paper thread?
__Friday, May 26, 2017 10:39 AM
<Bruce: multiple purposes for the structured forum
break down disagreements among members
structure to improve all discussions
separate resolution
member recruitment, CNPS marketing, promotion of papers, and expansion of conferences
coordinating scientific research
cover the needed structure issues
__5/26 7:11 PM
Hi Bruce: your structured forum goals
A. Attempt to resolve disagreements among members:
B. Set up bibliographies to reduce newbies' questions:
C. Each section develop goals, like doing experiments, writing papers ... :
D. Improve & promote CNPS & scientific research:
CNPS forum survey eventually
1st - purpose, status report & assignments
2nd - wiki working paper
3rd - bibliography & important outside viewpoints
discussion section
__Saturday, May 27, 2017 5:33 PM
<Bruce: Important threads; using a "sticky" function
bibliographies < many forums making a few contributions each
8. Definitions
__Wednesday, May 31, 2017 7:25 AM
<Bruce: I can't do the rating without details
I don't find value in the a simple rating scale
help locate interested people
__5/31) 11AM)
>Bruce: "help locate interested people
encyclopedic list of good alternative theories
PUT rating I, which was helpful
__6/1 - 11AM
>Bruce: let members start their own threads in any of those 9 sections
let moderators request moderator-controlled threads
consulted with any forum experts?
__« June 02, 2017, 09:55:43 pm »
Hi Bruce: start one or two threads in section 1
your critique of my 8-point scientific method
repeats of the MM experiment
5-part idea
Store raw data
Self-organize teams to rectify false media claims
corporate greed
__Monday, June 5, 2017 1:45 PM
<BN: Members can post new Threads, but not "forums"
email notification
MM experiment repeats
raw data
__« June 09, 2017, 02:29:14 pm »
REVIEW PROCESS
__Friday, June 9, 2017 10:00 AM
<Bruce:  I ratings vs P (probable) " ratings
guide a number of members to review them in depth
be published by CNPS + indexed
__Fri 6/9 2:23PM
>Bruce: look for fellow reviewers?
essential elements of P.U.T. that most interest me
6
CNPS Structured Discussion / REVIEW PROCESS
« Last post by Admin on June 09, 2017, 02:29:14 pm »
Friday, June 9, 2017 10:00 AM
<Bruce
_" I " means "improbable". I said I'd rate all his ideas as improbable because his fundamentals were improbable. Therefore, all the concepts that use them are on shaky ground. As for explanations, the long papers I attached provides my explanations.
_I don't understand why you said, "I figured the I ratings are the main ones for theorists to consider for improving their theories." I would expect you to focus on the " P (probable) " ratings. My reasoning for this is, we have to assume we are looking at a new theory (P.U.T. in this case) because it breaks new ground. Ground breaking papers are often total nonsense. That's what we want to rule out. BUT, if there are some good ideas in there, I would expect reviewers to rate them P.
_The point I was trying to make to you was that just having people create a ratings list doesn't capture enough detail to guide a facilitator to commit other people's effort to review a paper. Below, you said something that is more in keeping with this point. You said, "what I and two others agreed are probably the main essential ideas of P.U.T." That is, some people (let's say you and the other two for this case) who the society believes are sound thinkers, pick out some promising concepts and guide a number of members to review them in depth. The result of that review would be one of your papers. However, it would also have other outcomes related to the structured approach:
    The result paper would be published by CNPS
    The paper would be indexed with associations to Mathis, P.U.T. , and the topics selected for review in the paper like: photons, Time etc.
    Entries for Mathis and P.U.T. would be added to the general CNPS physics index along with citations to Mathis' work.
_The major goals here are: a. the study effort that would be done for the paper never has to be done again; and b. other scientists will easily find it doing an index search on  Mathis, P.U.T. or any of the key topics addressed in the review.
_The only comment I'd add about the 5-part plan is that it would be a guideline for any new research we do that generates raw data.

Fri 6/9 2:23PM
>Bruce
_You said: "Ground breaking papers are often total nonsense. That's what we want to rule out. BUT, if there are some good ideas in there, I would expect reviewers to rate them P."
_That makes sense. CNPS would want to know what gets rated P. Theorists would want to know what gets rated I in order to know better hot to improve their theories. So I was using theorists' perspective, while you were using CNPS' perspective. Right?
_You said: "some people ... who the society believes are sound thinkers, pick out some promising concepts and guide a number of members to review them in depth. The result of that review would be one of your papers ... [and] other outcomes"
_Should I look for such thinkers to serve as fellow reviewers? I guess you won't mind if I look for them. Right?
_Below, I've reduced the list of essential elements of P.U.T. to those that most interest me. Would you like to just briefly look them over and say if any of them seem possibly true? I ask, because I'm interested in what you may know that may disprove any of them, and because it may help me learn a good review process. Si?
_ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS of P.U.T. with DEFINITIONS
 . Photon: a particle of a fundamental mass and radius, or a multiple thereof
 . which is detected as visible light, or so-called electromagnetic radiation;
 . also, the building block of subatomic particles (all matter in the universe)
 . Spin: the rotation of a photon, or any subatomic particle [or any atom or ion]
 . Electricity: work done on a load by photon translational forces
 . Magnetism: work done on a load by coherent photon surface spins
 . Heat: infrared photons
 . Charge: photon pressure (equivalent to mass), ie emission of photons from subatomic particles (neutrons emit very little)
 . Atomic Charge Neutrality: the state of an atom or molecule that emits little photon radiation
 . Electron: smallest subatomic particle, too large to reach the speed of light;
 . in atoms it "orbits" the pole of a proton and neutralizes (partly blocks) charge
 . Proton: primary subatomic particle responsible for charge
 . Neutron: a nearly neutral subatomic particle;
 . free neutrons decay because of lesser emission which exposes them to ambient field photon collisions
 . Alpha: alpha particle having two each of protons, neutrons and electrons;
 . it forms the core of larger atoms, either single or up to five combined
 . Carousel: opposing pair/s of protons in one equatorial plane around the polar axis of [an atomic] nucleus
 . Math, Physics & Quantum Mechanics Errors: flawed calculations for the microcosm based on zero diameter of electrons and photons, zero mass of photons, flawed logic, etc
7
EU DEBATE / COMET ELECTRICAL EROSION
« Last post by Admin on June 08, 2017, 08:21:50 pm »
Comet mesa and crater erosion by electrical surface erosion.

See electrical erosion of Comet Temple I in the 47 to 50 minute segment of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wtt2EUToo

A mesa on Temple I shows electrical[?] erosion over a short period of time in 2005, shortening the mesa by 50 meters after sunspot and solar wind activity had increased significantly.

Here are images from the video.
8
CNPS Structured Discussion / BN 5-Part Plan
« Last post by Admin on June 02, 2017, 09:55:43 pm »
6/2 9:50 PM
_Hi Bruce. I wanted to start one or two threads in section 1 of the forums, but I don't see a way to do that? Don't members have that ability?
_I just now came across your critique of my 8-point scientific method. You apparently posted it on May 26. I previously came across the discussion that had been going on about the scientific method for some time, so I've been getting in late on these discussions.
_Your critique doesn't seem to say anything much different from what I had said are problems because many scientists and media don't really follow scientific method well. I haven't read your links to Carl Sagan's comments on scientific method, but I'm very unimpressed with Sagan myself. I believe he was one of the main supporters of mainstream corporate science lies. I don't know if you're aware of how much corporate greed has turned science into fairy tales.
_Your data on repeats of the MM experiment is very interesting. I'd enjoy hearing exactly what was measured to have the velocities you quoted.
_And your 5-part idea sounds good for improving science. 1. Store raw data for public access 2. along with critiques; 3. Summarize experiments historically and 4. develop better theories; 5. Self-organize teams to rectify false media claims to better inform the public. It may help for such teams to be aware of the problem of corporate greed and deep state dangers to science.
_Storing raw data & critiques sounds like fun. Do you have a place to store them? Can the Wiki have a section for raw data? I think most of the Wiki design will be a waste of effort, if it's to be based on the Wikipedia model.

---

Monday, June 5, 2017 1:45 PM
_Lloyd, Members can post new Threads, but not "forums". When I tried to give them that ability, they refused to even look through the outline to find existing forums that were appropriate to their new ideas. I have changed the explanation for the major category to instruct them about this.
_You should have received a direct email telling you I posted the May 26 reply. If you didn't you may not have had email notification turned on.
_Your point about me not criticizing your scientific method outline is correct. That approach is sound. The problems lie outside that method. Corporate greed is a major part of the problem, as you say. So, that's why I went into some depth on how Structured discussion is intended to fix this.
_About the MM experiment repeats, they all used the same geometry as MM, just adding better sensors, longer path lengths and changing variables that MM didn't think about. For example, Miller believed the aether was proved by MM, but it's slow speed was due to earth-capture. So he did tests a various altitudes, including high mountain sights. He showed a direct correlation of measured aether speed with altitude. He also was much more careful on temperature and pressure issues. All of the data I uncovered was on-line. I can't quickly find my reference list. But it should be something for us to put together.
_Monday, June 5, 2017 3:47 PM
_I think the raw data will eventually get stored in many places. For small amounts, it could essentially be an attachment to the paper. For huge studies, it may simply be permissions for access to the current repository. For medium data sets, CNPS has its own servers. Since CNPS is in control of the Wikis, we should be able to work that out. But again, I think it will be a referral to a separate document.
_About the "CNPS Critical Wikis", remember, while they "look" like a Wiki, and are "composed" using a Wiki document format, they are a totally different breed of cat because they do NOT allow public editing. CNPS controls the content.

---


9
CNPS Structured Discussion / Theory Rating
« Last post by Admin on May 31, 2017, 11:05:50 am »
Wednesday, May 31, 2017 7:25 AM
<Bruce
_OK. I understand your objective. But, for me, I can't do the rating without having a broader understanding of the theory the pieces come from. As I said, they appear to be just a totally disjointed list of physics concepts.
_For example, your first entry is: P Photon: a particle of a fundamental mass and radius, or multiple thereof. You rated this P. I'd rate it I. Why? Because the long history of the duality discussion - particle / wave - has not been resolved. For any statement that simply sides with a photon being "a particle of a fundamental mass and radius", but provides no sound explanation, it has to be labeled "improbable" because there is over 100 years of strong arguments that say it CAN'T be just a particle.
_This is why I don't find value in the a simple rating scale you are using. It's not the simplicity that's the issue. Here's another simple system I do think has value:
_Y = yes, I'm interested in discussing further;  N = no, I'm not.  At least this system would help locate people to carry an idea further. I think this Y/N version would actually be an outcome of your system. Let's say you picked one issue that scored P on your survey. That doesn't mean everyone who took the survey would work with you. Those who voted I just wouldn't participate, producing a de facto N.
_I think this is a typical case where you are "too close" to your subject. You know it so well. People like me, even with years of physics experience, are coming into it cold. We need a lot more background to help you. THAT is what I'm trying to coach people into doing with the structured method.
_So, point me to a paper on P.U.T. and let keep my test trial going.

---

.5/31) 11AM)
>Bruce.
_You say you want to "help locate people to carry an idea further". So in the theory rating thread at http://forums.naturalphilosophy.org/showthread.php?tid=151 I added this statement: YOUR INTEREST IN DISCUSSING P.U.T. (YES or NO):
_So here's how that thread starts out now.
-----------------------------------------
Below is the list of Essential Ideas of PUT.
Please rate each idea as I, M, or P:
I (improbable) = under 30% probability
M (maybe) = 30-70% probability
P (probable) = over 70% probability
(& give reasons for I ratings in parentheses)
_WHAT RATING YOU GIVE P.U.T.:
_YOUR INTEREST IN DISCUSSING P.U.T. (YES or NO):
---------------------------------------------------
_What do you think of the objective of building an encyclopedic list of good alternative theories, explaining each one in about a paragraph, as a list of essential ideas of each theory?
_Each member on the email string and each other member of CNPS probably has their own theories. Would it be a good experiment to have a CNPS forum or section where we can try to list the essential ideas of each member's main theory? Each theory listing could include a link to their discussions on the main forum. The rating method could be an option that readers could click on.
_You rated the first idea of PUT and you included your reason for rating it I, which was helpful. It shows that the wording of the photon idea may need to be improved or another idea may need to be added to the list of essential ideas. I rated one of the ideas as I, but that doesn't keep me from having interest in the theory. Would you mind rating some more of the PUT essential ideas?

---

6/1 - 11AM
>Bruce.
_I have some comments about the forums.
Here are the main forum sections.
1. CNPS Small Forums (Topics)
2. Relativity
3. Philosophy
4. Universe, Aether and Field Theory
5. Mass, Energy and Forces - Components of the Universe
6. Earth Sciences
7. Human Biology
8. Definitions
9. CNPS Work Groups
_Some members say they can't find things on the forums. Instead of having many forums in each section, why not let members start their own threads in any of those 9 sections and let moderators request moderator-controlled threads when members or mods ask for them? And maybe let moderators move threads to other sections in case members start them in the wrong sections.
_I think Human Biology should be changed to Biology; Evolution should be moved from under Philosophy to under Biology. Is astronomy/cosmology supposed to go under section 4? I think it might be good to have section 4 called Astronomy or Cosmology and section 5 called Physics & Chemistry.
_Have you consulted with any forum experts, regarding optimum layout as well as attracting new members?
10
EU DEBATE / May 30
« Last post by Admin on May 30, 2017, 11:21:06 pm »
LK QUESTIONS
<LK to RF>
Q1: Have you done or read any calculations on EDM that support those ideas in  detail?
Q2: Do you know of experiments that show that EDM can erode surfaces like that and  produce partly melted clays and quartz sand?
Q3: A close encounter between planets would surely raise very high tides, causing  megatsunamis, so why would not the cavitation effect produce the sand from granite  bedrock and the tsunamis account for the sediment deposition and erosion, leaving  behind some mesas?
Q4: Doesn't water erosion produce dendritic patterns?
Q5: The EU team accept much of Velikovsky's evidence on catastrophism, and  Velikovsky referred to violent winds that occurred, so wouldn't the winds account  for loess and volcanism account for deep sea ash?

------------------------------------------

<RF to LK>
INTERPLANETARY ELECTRIC DISCHARGE
_[See] ‘An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics’:  https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16534
_See: https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16534#p116159
_(Johnson. Robert. 2014. Massive Solar Eruptions and their contribution to the  causes of Tectonic Uplift. NCGT Journal Vol.2 No.1.)  _http://www.ncgtjournal.com/assets/NCGT_Journal_Contents_March_2014.pdf
_demonstrates that an external source of energy arising from massive solar  eruptions is likely to have been available on rare occasions in past eras.
_electric discharges to the Earth’s surface many orders of magnitude larger than  present-day lightning strikes would result from the impact of an extreme Coronal  Mass Ejection.
_The energy delivered directly to the crustal strata could have been sufficient to  contribute to uplift via many of the existing thermal expansion and phase change  models.
>>>_Rapid ion diffusion in the electric fields associated with the discharges is also  likely to have occurred, thereby potentially offering a solution to ‘the granite  problem’.
_(Gold, 1962, discussion p. 170) considered what effect a more massive solar  eruption would have on the Earth
_the increased solar wind pressure would drive the inner edge of the Earth’s  [outer] magnetosphere down into the upper atmosphere
_storm-generated electric currents would then encounter great resistance
_the path of least resistance is to short down in a massive and continuous  ‘lightning strike’ or discharge through the atmosphere, run through the more  conducting surface of the Earth, and short back up to the magnetosphere in a second  discharge to close the circuit back to the magnetosphere (figs. 1 and 2)
_huge direct currents of “hundreds of millions of Amps” would run in the surface of  the Earth
_Robert Johnson proposes that just such electrical discharges acted to uplift  modern mountainous regions
_Such currents would flow if either Earth encountered another celestial body or  Earth’s electrical environment changed
_I see such discharge altering Earth’s surface gravity which may have contributed  to the vertical tectonics at that time
_(see ‘An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics’ for my views on vertical  tectonics).
_We can picture both electrical and physical processes generating sediment but wave  action certainly did not sculpt Mt Everest
_the dendritic patterns of mountain ranges must have an electrical origin
_Paul Anderson has done work in this respect. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=c7w1rGeqXBg
_“Paul Anderson uses fractal analysis to determine what process –fluvial or  electrical- shaped the various landforms on the Earth, the main focus being canyons  and riverbeds.
_This analysis is then compared to electrical discharge patterns recorded in  laboratory experiments.
_Water flow does not appear to form structures with as many branches, particularly  perpendicular branches, as do electrical events.
_the current from the source must have been higher than it is today in the present auroras.
_The auroral process would have extended well beyond the current northern and  southern locations,
_and once the atmosphere could not support the ionization it would break down in  the form of electric discharges.’
_mountain formation was not only due to electrical uplift but also due to  electrical erosion.
_In this image of the Tibetan Plateau the rim has been eroded to form snow-capped  mountain ranges.
_“This is the pattern we see the world over
_What strata escaped being metamorphosed were eroded, pulverised and scattered by  intense electrical winds
_(something similar but on a vastly reduced scale still occurs on Mars today

<>Are you referring to global dust storms from electrified dust devils?
<>Do you see dendritic patterns on Mars from that?

ASH & DUST
_In the same thread I write: “Ashes and Dust
_Large areas of the Earth’s strata and surface record what geologists perceive as  ‘massive volcanic eruptions’ quite often these prehistoric eruptions dwarf any  recorded eruption.
_For example, Dinosaur National Monument (Utah, USA) is part of the Morrison  Formation which covers some 700,000 square miles.
_Part of the formation is: ‘dominated by silica-rich volcanic ash representing  explosive volcanism on a colossal scale
_A staggering quantity of volcanic materials, estimated at more than 4,000 cubic  miles, occurs within the thin but widespread Brushy Basin Member in Wyoming, Utah,  Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona.
_No volcano is known within the boundary of the Morrison deposit, no local lava  flows are known within the Morrison boundary, and geologists place the nearest  explosive volcanic source vents in southern California or Nevada.
_How these coarse volcanic materials in such colossal quantities were distributed  on so wide a scale remains a mystery.’(15)
_“The Worzel Deep Sea Ash consists of colourless shards of volcanic glass with an  index of refraction of 1.500 and varying in size from 0.07 to 0.2 mm.
_There is no particle size sorting.
_Most of the shards are in the form of curved, fluted, or crumpled films of glass.
_A minority are nearly equidimensional fragments of silky pumice.
_No crystalline minerals have been found.
_In all important respects it is similar to material which has been classified as  volcanic ash in the deep-sea deposits of the world.
_On preliminary examination, the ash of the Worzel layer appears to be quite  similar to the ash layer which occurs in a suite of cores from the Gulf of Mexico.
_Rex and Goldberg have found quartz particles of continental origin in abundance in  Pacific sediments as much as 2,000 miles from the nearest continent
_The ash is entirely unlike material described as meteoritic dust.’
_“The researchers concluded: ‘Apparently we require either a single very large  volcanic explosion, or the simultaneous explosion of many volcanoes
_or a cometary collision similar to that suggested by Urey as explanation" for the  origin of tektites.’
_In other words a global cataclysm is required to account for the ash.
>>>_However, if we look at the chemical composition of the ash (17) we find it shares similar chemical properties with granite (18).
_“Loess covers about 10% of the Earth’s land surface
_according to Michael Oard it is generally considered to be wind-blown (Aeolian)  silt.
_It is composed mostly of quartz grains, with minor portions of clay and sand often  mixed with the silt.
_Loess is commonly intermixed vertically with ‘paleosols’, which are supposedly  fossil soils that have been preserved in the geologic record or buried deeply  enough that it is no longer subject to soil forming processes.
_Scientists previously believed the silt particles in loess were derived from ice  abrasion, but they now believe that loess has both a glacial and non-glacial  origin.
_In central China it is up to 300m thick.
_Millions of woolly mammoths and other Ice Age animals are mostly entombed in loess  in non-glaciated areas of Siberia, Alaska and the Yukon Territory of Canada.
_Wind blown material is common within the Ice Age portion of the Greenland ice  cores.
_“Whether it be ‘volcanic ash’, deep sea ash or loess, all this material may be the  by-product of the electrical erosion that occurred during the mountain forming  period.
_material eroded in the early stages may have been deposited whilst marine  incursions were still ongoing
_this material would have been incorporated into marine strata and interpreted as  ‘volcanic’.
_During the latter stages when marine transgressions had subsided electrical dust  storms would have scattered the material globally- eventually to settle on the  ocean floor or entrap ‘Ice Age’ mammals.
_“Furthermore, marine sponge spicules have been identified in loess,
_we have already seen that the fossilised remains of sea creatures have been found  atop Mount Everest
_it is likely that the remains of sponges originated from the uplifted uppermost  sedimentary strata pulverised and scattered by an electrical discharge

RADIOACTIVE CRATER
_Louis Hissink https://malagabay.wordpress.com/2017/05/03/indian-impacts- hammerhead-geology-by-louis-hissink/
_Woolfe Creek Crater with its radioactive crater rim is an electrical discharge  producing radioactive elements in situ.

GRANITE
_Given the association of radioactive elements with granite
_and great masses of granite are found to have been emplaced among deformed and  metamorphosed sedimentary strata to form enormous granite bathyliths in the cores  of major mountain ranges
_Granite is never found outside mountain belts (Bucher, 1950, p. 37).”
_There's a link between electrical discharges and topographic uplift

------------------------------------------

MT ST HELENS EROSION
Dendritic erosion at Mt. St. Helens Fig. 3
http://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_sa_r04

SOIL EROSION
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/600x315/27/d1/f2/27d1f2af2117530c81dd959e6be06873.jpg

GRANITE
Wikipedia: Occurrence
Granitic rock is widely distributed throughout the continental crust. Much of it was intruded during the Precambrian age; it is the most abundant basement rock that underlies the relatively thin sedimentary veneer of the continents. Outcrops of granite tend to form tors and rounded massifs. Granites sometimes occur in circular depressions surrounded by a range of hills, formed by the metamorphic aureole or hornfels. Granite often occurs as relatively small, less than 100 km² stock masses (stocks) and in batholiths that are often associated with orogenic mountain ranges. Small dikes of granitic composition called aplites are often associated with the margins of granitic intrusions. In some locations, very coarse-grained pegmatite masses occur with granite.
Origin
Granite has a felsic composition and is more common in recent geologic time in contrast to Earth's ultramafic ancient igneous history. Felsic rocks are less dense than mafic and ultramafic rocks, and thus they tend to escape subduction, whereas basaltic or gabbroic rocks tend to sink into the mantle beneath the granitic rocks of the continental cratons. Therefore, granitic rocks form the basement of all land continents.

LOESS
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/images/loess_deposits.gif
Loess is a sedimentary deposit composed largely of silt-size grains that are loosely cemented by calcium carbonate.

Distribution and composition of loess sediments in the Ili Basin, Central Asia
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618213009877
The bulk mineral components of the Ili loess are dominated by quartz and feldspar with minor amounts of calcite, chlorite, mica, dolomite and hornblende. More than 20 types of heavy minerals were observed with major components of amphibole, magnetite and epidote. The major elements of the Ili loess are characterized by high abundance of SiO2, Al2O3 and CaO and minor amounts of Fe2O3, MgO, Na2O and K2O.

WORZEL ASH
http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,244845,245282

The "Worzel Ash" (Los Chocoyos Volcanic Ash)
Author: Xebec ()
Date: June 26, 2008 03:47AM
legionromanes wrote:

"The debris Venus allegedly deposited in Earth's atmosphere causing 40 years of darkness after the Exodus left no trace in the world's ice caps or ocean bottoms, [See "Ice Cores", Kronos X:1, 1984, 97-102, or Appendix D at end of [abob.libs.uga.edu].] a test ignored by Rose [and an example of negative evidence with which Velikovskians do not have a good track record of dealing. N.B.: The "Worzel Ash" touted by Velikovsky and his epigoni is known to be volcanic (to the exclusion of any other source) from eruptions in Central America, limited in extent (i.e., not global), and far older than 3500 years; see "The Worzel Ash," Kronos X:1, 1984, 92-94 or section "The 'Worzel' Ash" in Mewhinney's "Minds in Ablation". (12-III-99) .]"

Note "Minds in Ablation Part Seven: Dust" is at: [ www.pibburns.com ]

The extent of the "Worzel Ash" of Worzel (1959) and as discussed by Ewing et al. (1959) and Anders and Limber (1959) is now known to have been vastly overestimated. Detailed research published by Bowels et al. (1973), Drexler et al. (1980), Ledbetter (1984, 1985), and Ledbetter and Sparks (1979), which included trace element analysis and dating by biostratigraphy, oxygen isotope stratigraphy, and radiometric methods not performed by Worzel (1959), show that what he mapped as the "Worzel Ash" actually consists of a number of different beds of volcanic ash that vary greatly in age. They found that the "Worzel Ash" was not a single global ash bed. From the trace and minor element analysis of 128 volcanic ash samples from 56 cores, Bowles et al. (1973) concluded that the unit, which Worzel (1959) mapped as the "Worzel Ash" consists of different ash beds of differing ages including three regionally widespread volcanic ash beds. Ledbetter and Sparks (1979) found what they called the "Worzel D ash" to be the distal counterpart of the rhyolitic Los Chocoyos ash-flow tuff of Guatemala and both were the result of a caldera ("supervolcano") eruption. Drexler et al. (1980) found that the "Worzel D" (Los Chocoyos) ash was created by a massive caldera eruption of the Atitlan caldera, which buried the much of the Guatemalan Highlands and Pacific coastal plain under a thick layer of ignimbrite and spread volcanic ash from Florida to Ecuador. Drexler et al. (1980) contains a map showing the distribution of the Los Chocoyos ("Worzel D" and Y8) ash bed. In this eruption, the Atitlan caldera erupted 270-280 cubic kilometers of volcanic material and created a huge volcanic caldera now filled by Lake Atitlan (Rose et al. 1987).

More coring and detailed geochemical analyses by Ledbetter (1985) of ash layers recovered from cores in the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific Ocean adjacent to Central America defined 11 distinct ash beds within the sediments underlying the Gulf of Mexico and Pacific Ocean surrounding Central America. He was able to delineate the extent of each of the ash layers. The two most widespread ash layers, the Los Chocoyos ("Worzel D") ash bed was estimated to be 84,000 years old and the Worzel L ash bed was estimated to be 230,000 years old. Ledbetter (1984) noted that the Y8 ash bed in Gulf of Mexico is the same as the Los Chocoyos (Worzel D) ash bed.

The distributions of the Los Chocoyos (Worzel D) and other regionally extensive volcanic ash beds (tephras) are shown in figure 2 (page 6) of Machida (2002). In this figure, The Wozel D ash is ash deposit no. 26.

References

Anders, E., and N. Limber, 1959, Origin of the Worzel Deep-Sea Ash. Nature. vol. 184, pp. 44-45.

Bowels, F.A., R.N. Jack, and I.S.E. Carmichael, 1973, Investigation of Deep-Sea Volcanic Ash Layers from
Equatorial Pacific Cores. Geological Society of America Bulletin, vol. 84, no. 7, pp. 2371-2388
DOI: 10.1130/0016-7606(1973)84<2371:IODVAL>2.0.CO;2

Drexler, J.W., W.I. Rose, Jr., R.S.J. Sparks, and M.T. Ledbetter, 1980. The Los Chocoyos Ash, Guatemala: a major stratigraphic marker in middle America andin three ocean basins. Quaternary Research, vol. 13, pp. 327-345.

Ewing, M., B.C. Heezen and D,B. Ericson, 1959, Significance of the Worzel Deep Sea Ash. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. vol. 45, No. 3, pp. 355-361.

Ledbetter, M.T., 1984. Late Pleistocene tephrochronology in the Gulf of Mexico region. In N. Healy-Williams, ed., pp. 119-148, Principles of Pleistocene Stratigraphy Applied to the Gulf of Mexico. IHRDC Press, Boston.

Ledbetter, M.T., 1985, Tephrochronology of marine tephra adjacent to Central America. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 96, no. 1, pp. 77-82.
DOI: 10.1130/0016-7606(1985)96<77:TOMTAT>2.0.CO;2

Ledbetter, M.T., and R.S.J. Sparks, 1979, Duration of large-magnitude explosive eruptions deduced from graded bedding in deep-sea ash layers Geology. vol. 7, no. 5, pp. 240-244
DOI: 10.1130/0091-7613(1979)7<240:DOLEED>2.0.CO;2

Machida, H. 2002, Quaternary Volcanoes and Widespread Tephras of the World. Global Environmental Research. vol. 6, no. 2, pp. 3-17. [ www.airies.or.jp ]

Rose, W.I., C.G. Newhall, T.J. Bornhorst, and S. Self, 1985, Quaternary silicic pyroclastic deposits of Atitlan Caldera, Guatemala. Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research. vol. 33, no. 1-3, pp. 57-80.

Worzel, J.L., 1959, Extensive deep sea sub-bottom reflections identified as white ash. National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. vol. 45, no. 3, pp.349-355.

Some URLS
Los Chocoyos ash [ volcano.und.edu ]
Atitlan, Guatemala [ volcano.und.edu ]
Lake Atitlan [ volcano.und.edu ]
Lago de Atitlán [ en.wikipedia.org ]
Essen in "Re: The Evidence of Mu" <[ www.grahamhancock.com ];
C. Leroy Ellenberger - [en.wikipedia.org]


Yours,
David

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