Author Topic: CNPS General Discussion  (Read 103 times)

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Re: CNPS General Discussion
« on: May 26, 2017, 07:28:59 pm »
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2017, 9:33 AM
_Lloyd, I'm only addressing your first two points in this response. I'll address rating in a followup email.
_Inviting members to the forum: Remember, the email string is a renegade email environment. NO RULES!  David and CNPS have no authority there. And "as a rule" they avoid it. So, to invite members, you essentially just go OFF TOPIC! You post an email, "reply all", and state your goal.  For example, "Anyone interested in this topic might be interested joining XYZ on the Forum." Also, after a few days, you will have dozens of emails with different topics. So, go out of order and reply all to the email with a topic that is closest to what you want to talk about.  Remember, please don't fall into the rat hole.
_Structure:I looked at your 4.1 Photonic Universe set up. Your suggestions now make
more sense to me, along with your explanations below. I had never considered using the forum to directly develop a paper. I always considered it a much larger, CNPS wide event. So, this is a very good idea for smaller efforts and can be added as an alternative element of the structured approach.
_Notice, we {two blindfolded researchers communicating by email}  have been examining the elephant from different sides. Let me expand on your observations and you will see the problem.
_The term "Summary":  Yes, by this I did mean "discussion summary", but not just from the standpoint of content summarization. More importantly, I viewed it as a running summary of coordination of the discussion. Think of this more as a "status report". The goal being, when a new person enters the discussion, or someone has left for awhile and returned, the "summary" tells them: 1. what this forum is all
about - its goals, challenges etc.; 2. what has gone on so far (discussion summary); 3. what issues have been resolved; 4. what issues are hot now;  and 5. what are the current focus activities. Again, in short, my "summary" is a project "status report". Item 2, which is what you started to do, does not need to be a line-by-line summary. Too much work.
_The term "coordination": This did not foresee paper writing. As such, it was simply coordination of the discussion in an attempt to resolve specific scientific questions. Any paper that came out of that, I thought, would be written by the facilitator as a personal activity, possibly involving others as co-authors.
_The term "external inputs": As part of the facilitation, I expected the facilitator to bring in material from sources outside the discussion as "drivers" to focus or promote the discussion. For example, one discussion on the email string degraded into an emotional fight about what Einstein believed and meant about the speed of light. I jumped in (which I only did infrequently) with a long quotation I cited "verbatim" from a transcribed presentation that Einstein made. I emphasize
"verbatim" because I had to stay in the discussion long enough to just get them to acknowledge that they could not make up their own story about what Einstein "said" when there was physical history that recorded what he said. In the end, they ignored me and went back to fighting. This is where the control of the structured part of the forum can shut this down, without actually moderating (by deletion) the actual discussion. So, the external inputs section would collect these intervention documents. Another group of "external inputs" would be discussions from other forums brought in by the facilitator which challenged the forum discussion.
_The term "documentation": I picked this word because the external "material" could be in any form: papers, speeches, drawings, graphics, articles, quotes from anywhere including other forums, books, policies, data tables etc. To me, "references" seemed to apply just to formal papers and books.
_Possible solution: Here is an approach I think addresses both of our approaches.
1. If the facilitator wants to produce a paper as the outcome of the forum discussion, this is stated in the forum launch. 2. An additional forum entry is made for this, e.g. 4.1.1.4  Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers -Working Paper . This can be formatted (by me during set up) as: open access; moderated; facilitator only.  The facilitator would decide which one. 3. The term "references" is just as good and easy to incorporate. What it means would be described in the controlled "Summary" document. 4. The "external input" function could be merged into the references but also added directly into the discussion. For example, if the facilitator (or anyone else)  brought in a post from another forum, they would post it and its citation as part of the discussion. The facilitator would then grab the citation for the "reference" section.

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On May 26, 2017, at 12:55 AM)
Hi Bruce. Your last email was in my spam folder all day along with a bunch of emails from your email string.
_I thought you had said earlier that the purpose of the structured forum was to produce papers for the Wiki. If not, then what is the purpose? Just to have fun?
_You said: "Possible solution:
1. If the facilitator wants to produce a paper as the outcome of the forum discussion, this is stated in the forum launch."
2. An additional forum entry is made for this, e.g. 4.1.1.4  Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers -Working Paper . This can be formatted ( by me during set up ) as: open access; moderated; facilitator only.  The facilitator would decide which one."
__I think I'd prefer facilitator only for mine. Why wouldn't each topic in the forum have a Working Paper thread?
_"3. The term 'references' is just as good and easy to incorporate. What it means would be described in the controlled 'Summary' document."
__Okay, but instead of "Summary", I think I'd prefer "Ongoing Status Report" or "New & Returning Members, Read This!", if I understand you.
_"4. The 'external input' function could be merged into the references but also added directly into the discussion. For example, if the facilitator (or anyone else)  brought in a post from another forum, they would post it and its citation as part of the discussion. The facilitator would then grab the citation for the "reference" section.
__Right. As for the phrase "external inputs", it seemed vague to me, but I don't know if other people would have that impression.

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Friday, May 26, 2017 10:39 AM
<Bruce
_There are multiple purposes for the structured forum. Here were my goals in general order of priority:
_Discuss single topics to break down disagreements among members around specific issues. CNPS members are strongly divided about Relativity. Most of this, however, is due to simple language flaws. If those could be resolved, then doors would open for serious work.
_Set up structure to improve all discussions. This would include things like: set up a bibliography for novice members to answer "resolved" issues without taking up forum effort; set up a bibliography for "expert" members as the basis for discussion. They now rely on memory, which they present full of errors.
_Breakdown topics into items that need separate resolution, with the goal of a larger result ( that might end up with one or more papers). For example, we are talking about developing a number of low cost experiments that will resolve the Relativity / Aether debate once and for all.
_The forum will be the primary mechanism to plan and coordinate member recruitment, CNPS marketing, promotion of papers, and expansion of conferences.
_The structured forum will become a new paradigm for coordinating scientific research. Creating more papers, the way it is done now, even by academia, is just one more landfill.
_" I think I'd prefer facilitator only for mine."   OK. I'll set up a "closed" forum for you: 4.1.1.4  Electro-Magnetic Universe and Aethers -Working Paper
_"Why wouldn't each topic in the forum have a Working Paper thread?"       See list above.
_"3. The term 'references' is just as good and easy to incorporate. What it means would be described in the controlled 'Summary' document." __Okay, but instead of "Summary", I think I'd prefer "Ongoing Status Report" or "New & Returning Members, Read This!", if I understand you."
_At this stage of experimentation, I'm open to different wording for the structured elements for different forums. So, pick out your titles and the order they should show up in.  HOWEVER, make sure you cover the needed structure issues:
1. A summary of what is going on in the discussion: status report a. what this forum is all about - its goals, challenges etc.; b. what has gone on so far (discussion summary); c. what issues have been resolved and what breakthrough conclusions have come up; d. what issues are hot now;  e. what are the current focus activities (which are different from d. due to renegade members); f. what you believe the stumbling blocks to resolution are.
2. Guidelines - coordination - of what you want the current discussion to focus on. If you have a real team effort going, list the assignments.
3. A brief bibliography of key material that sets the foundation for the discussion. This includes updates as the discussion goes forward.
4. A mechanism for bringing in outside viewpoints. This can be merged into the discussion for both you and members. But it also needs a semi-static document to cite it or directly include the text, and not rely only on the waterfall discussion.

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5/26 7:11 PM
Hi Bruce. My reply is in two parts.
_Part 1.
Here is my understanding of your structured forum goals, which I label A-D, with your quotes in << - >>:
A. Attempt to resolve disagreements among members:
<<Discuss single topics to break down disagreements among members around specific issues. CNPS members are strongly divided about Relativity. Most of this, however, is due to simple language flaws. If those could be resolved, then doors would open for serious work.>>
B. Set up bibliographies to reduce newbies' questions:
<<Set up structure to improve all discussions. This would include things like: set up a bibliography for novice members to answer "resolved" issues without taking up forum effort; set up a bibliography for "expert" members as the basis for discussion. They now rely on memory, which they present full of errors.>>
C. Each section develop goals, like doing experiments, writing papers ... :
<<Breakdown topics into items that need separate resolution, with the goal of a larger result ( that might end up with one or more papers). For example, we are talking about developing a number of low cost experiments that will resolve the Relativity / Aether debate once and for all.>>
D. Improve & promote CNPS & scientific research:
<<The forum will be the primary mechanism to plan and coordinate member recruitment, CNPS marketing, promotion of papers, and expansion of conferences.
The structured forum will become a new paradigm for coordinating scientific research. Creating more papers, the way it is done now, even by academia, is just one more landfill.>>
_My impressions are:
A seems useful.
B seems difficult & of questionable value. We or some of us could try it and do a survey to say what's worthwhile in the effort.
C seems most valuable.
D sounds like what the last CNPS forum might be doing. Right?
_Part 2.
You said:
<<At this stage of experimentation, I'm open to different wording for the structured elements for different forums. So, pick out your titles and the order they should show up in.  HOWEVER, make sure you cover the needed structure issues:
1. A summary of what is going on in the discussion: status report
a. what this forum is all about - its goals, challenges etc.;
b. what has gone on so far (discussion summary);
c. what issues have been resolved and what breakthrough conclusions have come up;
d. what issues are hot now; 
e. what are the current focus activities (which are different from d. due to renegade members);
f. what you believe the stumbling blocks to resolution are.
2. Guidelines - coordination - of what you want the current discussion to focus on. If you have a real team effort going, list the assignments.
3. A brief bibliography of key material that sets the foundation for the discussion. This includes updates as the discussion goes forward.
4. A mechanism for bringing in outside viewpoints. This can be merged into the discussion for both you and members. But it also needs a semi-static document to cite it or directly include the text, and not rely only on the waterfall discussion.>>
_My impressions are:
1a seems useful and easy enough.
1b-e seem difficult & of lesser value. Readers can do most of those things themselves.
1f seems possibly useful, but it may be time-consuming & hard to remember to do.
2 seems okay.
3 seems only slightly useful. This sounds like "Important Files" or the like on some forums. Maybe the CNPS forum setup will make the bibliography more convenient than on most forums. But there should be a survey eventually to ask members how helpful the bibliography is and whether and how it should be improved (ditto for the whole forum).
4 seems slightly useful too.
_Let's see if I can come up with thread titles, now that you've explained your goals more completely. Okay, here are my choices for thread titles:
1st - for 1a & 1b-f & 2 (all in one thread): purpose, status report & assignments(?);
2nd - for a wiki working paper: wiki working paper;
3rd - for 3 & 4 (in one thread): bibliography & important outside viewpoints.
All of those would be stickied in that order and the discussion section would be unstickied. How's that?

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Saturday, May 27, 2017 5:33 PM
<Bruce
_This is a good summary of my points. Your selection of titles covers all of my points plus your working paper. So, let's give it a shot.
_I notice that you already changed the titles in your section with the subheading Important threads.  That is how I would have done it, but with 4.1.1.4 numbering. Am I right that you created the subheadings: Important threads, and Normal Threads, using a "sticky" function?.  I tried logging in as a member to see if I could reply to these. I was able to. That's what I want to stop by locking the forums you called "Important", so regular members can't post in that area - Too many trolls.
_The only title I'm not sure if you want to lock or not is the Working Paper. I thought you said you wanted to lock it, but I can't find that discussion. Let me know about this.
_While I generally agree with your summary, there are still a few comments where I haven't convinced you of the merit. A way to do that might be for me to participate in your forum. When the issues come up, if I point them out, I think you will then see my concerns.
_A few, however, I can address right now:
_Setting up the bibliographies for newbies - yes, this is a difficult task. But I wouldn't expect any single forum, like yours, to complete the effort. Over time, however, many forums making a few contributions each would produce a large impact.
_For example ( and this relates to your MM paper ), there should not be any confusion about principles like "photons". The MM paper falls right into this quagmire. So as soon as any member raises a question about what a photon is, they should be referred to the Definition section of the Forum - in this case: 8. Definitions - Photon. And why this is a good example is, when a newbie or newly joining expert jumps to the Photon definition, what I expect is they will NOT get a simple answer.  Instead, they will be referred to a number of Critical Wiki articles that show the scientific community, at large, is still very divided about what photons are. After they read a few articles, they would return to your forum with a much more open and critical approach.
_Yes, for approach D,  the Work Group section will be involved. But largely to "coordinate" this goal. The primary work effort, however, will be for specific structured forums to make the scientific progress. And, it will be the ability of the structured approach to break down barriers to progress that will attract new members.

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5/27 7:45 PM
Hi Bruce.
_I don't remember using thread titles "Important threads" and "Normal threads". I guess it's possible.
_Am I right that you've made me facilitator of just these forums?
3.3.3 The Scientific Method
4.1.1 Electric Universe or Aether
6.1 Catastrophism
6.2 Expansion Tectonics
6.3 Surge Tectonics
_I guess you'll be providing 3 locked threads for each of them titled:
- purpose, status report & assignments(?)
- wiki working paper
- bibliography & important outside viewpoints
plus an unlocked section titled discussion.
_After you do that, then I can change the titles of some of the threads that I started and relocate the contents appropriately.
_Which forum/s would you like to post in to help get me oriented?
_I invited email string members to a thread in 3.3.3.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 08:22:09 pm by Admin »